2015: The Year of Reading Women discussion

Discussion page for Doris Lessing's Children of Violence series, starting with Martha Quest on 1 January. No set schedule yet; we've decided to read MQ first before committing to all five books, but if we do, we'll likely spread them out over the course of the year in order to accommodate other group reads. Stay tuned!

Thanks for starting this, Jacob.

For those peeking in and considering joining: please do!

For myself, I plan to read the entire Children of Violence series in 2015, but spaced out enough and at a leisurely enough pace to read other books concurrently and in between.

So there will be a pretty relaxed pace to my reading of CoV, and I'd welcome others along for the ride - and hope J. and K. will continue on with me after Martha Quest!

I'm planning on joining too--I've really liked the past Doris Lessing novels I've read so this will be an adventure!

Anyone get started yet? I've read a little past Chapter 1. When I read that Doris Lessing grew up in Africa I initially thought that must have been exotic but reading Martha's angle so far, I'm not envious about the isolation she experienced. Not even a friend her age of the same gender.

Just started it. My first encounter with Lessing and it looks promising so far.

I'm going to add the other Children of Violence books to the group's bookshelves later, and also to the upcoming reads threads.

Most of the books are easy to manage in a month, so I thought to read volumes 1-4 in a month each, with one month in between to read other works.

So Martha Quest for January; A Proper Marriage for March; and so on.

The last one (vol. 5; The Four-Gated City) is the longest, and we could allow two months for people to finish that, although it does read fast.

Sound good?

Hope everyone enjoys either their first encounter or their reacquaintance with Lessing - and that you'll join me and others here to read all of CoV in 2015!

I've also started reading MQ. I can't believe how the author goes inside the head of a teenage girl so well. So far, memories of my mother and her friends visiting and talking have come flooding back very clearly. I remember wanting to hurl something at them.

Proustitute wrote: "I'm going to add the other Children of Violence books to the group's bookshelves later, and also to the upcoming reads threads.

Most of the books are easy to manage in a month, so I thought to rea..."

Works for me. I want to get some background as I'm reading the novels and since Lessing's first autobio Under My Skin: Volume One Of My Autobiography, To 1949 was surprisingly very cheap in my local
online book store I got that to read in between. Her life fascinates me.

Jacob wrote: "Discussion page for Doris Lessing's Children of Violence series, starting with Martha Quest on 1 January. No set schedule yet; we've decided to read MQ first before committing to all five books, b..."

Thanks Jacob and Proustitute. I'm looking forward to this one, my first Lessing.

Has everyone backed out of reading this one? It's not bad, you know. (I'm hoping to finish it soon and post my review because I expect to get very busy next week.)

I started MQ last night. Still too soon to tell, but I'm enjoying Lessings portrayal of life in Africa.

started it last night too. A couple of chapters in.

Chance wrote: "I started MQ last night. Still too soon to tell, but I'm enjoying Lessings portrayal of life in Africa."

I enjoyed the beginning for that reason too but was having some doubts. Those doubts evaporated though as I read on...

My review if you're curious:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Jonathan wrote: "My review if you're curious:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."

The novel is holding my interest, certainly. Great review, by the way...

Chance wrote: "Great review, by the way..."

Thanks!

I hope my copy's at the library so that I may start soon.

Jonathan wrote: "Has everyone backed out of reading this one?"

or else people are just very behind, myself included!

Or some people just aren't very good about adding their thoughts to group discussions. Hello!

I'm a slow reader but enjoying the book very much.
only 16% read so far.

I laughed at the part where it mentioned "Dress Wars" because I know exactly what Martha is going through. It's difficult being the only daughter or the oldest daughter in a family, especially with strict parents. I don't think some things have changed much since the decade this book was written.

Jacob wrote: "Or some people just aren't very good about adding their thoughts to group discussions. Hello!"
Hello!
I finished it a couple of days ago. Overall it felt a bit undifferentiated, rather like Martha. I think this reflects her own uncertain sense of self, and search for identity but with only a weak capability for self reflection, and limited capability for empathy. But she's a teenager, doing teenagery things. It really captured nicely the post colonial societies, and shows the undercurrent of racism. I presume the next in the series will show Martha becoming more fully formed and introspective and intellectual, as the effects of the impending war changes society, so I'm looking forward to the next books.

if anyone wants to add the remaining CoV books to the group bookshelves, and also just a quick shout-out in the respective mostly upcoming read threads, that would be great. I'm so rarely near a computer lately... time is not on my side these days. you would have my undying love!

as I said above, and which seems to be something most agree upon, we'll tackle the rest every other month:

A Proper Marriage (March)
A Ripple from the Storm (May)
Landlocked (July)
The Four-Gated City (Sept-Oct)

Still behind you all.....I just picked up my copy from ILL at the library today! Hopefully, will make some progress tonight. Office moves...ugh!

My local indie has it on order but having issues getting it. Fortunately there's a lot of January left!

Those of you reading Doris Lessing may be interested in this:

Doris and Me

I don’t remember the exact date when I went to live in Doris Lessing’s house in Charrington Street, north of King’s Cross. I think of it as being just a few weeks after Sylvia Plath killed herself in early February 1963. The suicide was still very raw and much discussed by Doris’s friends.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n01/jenny-di...

thanks for linking to Diski's piece on Lessing, Reem.

Diski was very kind to link to my piece on Lessing and my father when she was publicizing her own LRB piece on Twitter. I will be forever indebted to her for that... and it just goes to show how Lessing's work speaks to so many people, in so many different, singularly resonant ways.

Proustitute wrote: "Diski was very kind to link to my piece on Lessing and my father when she was publicizing her own LRB piece on Twitter. I will be forever inde..."
I loved that essay you wrote, P., and it is why I wanted to start a Lessing.

Thanks, Cheryl. That means a lot.

Martha Quest is definitely not her best: Golden Notebook is, hands down, followed by the book I wrote about in my piece linked above. Then, in my view, the novel we'll all be reading the CoV series toward: Four-Gated City.

Lessing is paving the way toward that now. Perhaps it's just me loathing the Bildungsroman so much lately that's causing me to fall behind with the MQ group reading schedule!

I´ve only come close to finishing the first part. Can´t say that it´s exactly an easy read, and there´re certain elements to the character that seem contradictory, nothing that I can put my finger on just yet.
Interesting to see the divisiveness of postcolonial society; the in-fighting isn't limited to race, but to culture and religion as well: the "natives", the whites, the Afrikaans, the Jews, the Scots, the Irish, each with their own little enclave.

I've only come close to finishing the first part. Not exactly a book that one breezes through, which surprised me a bit. There are elements to her character that I find contradictory, but it's nothing that I can put my finger on just yet.
Interesting the divisiveness of this postcolonial society, and that it's not limited to race: there are the natives, the whites, the Afrikaans, the Jews, the Scots, the Irish, all in their little enclaves.

Finished MQ last night. For those who feel the first part drags, hang in there--the pace and intrigue pick up.

During the entire novel, I appreciated Martha's situation mostly through all the other characters' words and deeds. Martha's unease and personal angst provided a filter and coloring, but she seemed less stable than the others. This was brilliant, given Martha's lack of experience, and allows the reader to witness her growth from the inside, while understanding the complexity of the environment. Not that this strategy is new, but it is accomplished effectively here.

Chance wrote: "Finished MQ last night. For those who feel the first part drags, hang in there--the pace and intrigue pick up."

It does, yes. And the series becomes increasingly more brilliant.

I kind of wonder if the reason why MQ feels a bit like a slog is because Lessing is so successful getting inside Marta's point-of-view: it's the malaise of adolescence; the repetition of childhood; the vacillations of that period in one's life. And yes, those experiences and the ways in which Martha is beginning to form as a social subject are crucial to the rest of the books.

For those who have been having a tough time, I do agree with Chance: keep at it. By the time you finish The Four-Gated City - the last in the CoV series - you will be so, so, so glad that you stuck with it. Trust me.

Proustitute wrote: "Chance wrote: "Finished MQ last night. For those who feel the first part drags, hang in there--the pace and intrigue pick up."

It does, yes. And the series becomes increasingly more brilliant.

I..."

Martha is not a particularly sympathetic protagonist at this point. Good thing she has mastered the art of keeping her true feelings to herself as I think she would have fewer friends--but that in itself is universal, I suppose. On occasion, a hint of nobility shines through. Briefly. Still, I'm game for the rest of the series, just to see what transformation is in store for her.

Mike wrote: "Chance wrote: "Martha is not a particularly sympathetic protagonist at this point."

Boy Howdy! Finished MQ, and I've ordered A Proper Marriage."

There's a good man! Carry on, dear chap! Chin up!

Mike wrote: "Kinda funny how the language of the Sports Club crowd puts one (well, me) in mind of Jay Gatsby."

And that given all their antics, they were inept with women, who resorted to acting maternal towards them. Interesting watching that train wreck.

Not always too different from here, frankly! Co-dependency is international. Still....I was just reading that part this morning, about the Club, and thought "Wouldn't it be nice if a woman could get away with walking up to an attractive man and saying, "Where's your girlfriend, darling, let me kill her for you...." without seeming psychotic?" I might just read the others to encounter other such lines!

Hahaha!

Mike wrote: "Chance wrote: "who resorted to acting maternal towards them"

Someone has probably already coined the word, so I hope I won't bear that burden, but it occurs to me that "matronizing" might be of so..."

Interesting. My feeling is that there is a subtle difference between maternal and matronizing. Matronizing, like patronizing, seems to be an attitude imposed on a person, whether they welcome/need it or not. Maternal, for me, doesn't have the imposition flavor--the object of a maternal affection warrants, or needs a mother and the reaction is instinctual towards such needy creatures--almost despite oneself. I think Martha and the girls did not want to be viewed as 'mother', but the boys were so immature, that the girls had little choice. Now, that is all in my head. I'm certain a good dictionary would clear it up. I'm a writer. I should go do that right now.

:)
It's a good point, Chance, that of choosing to act that way vs having the label imposed upon you. Yes, what came to my mind, actual fact, was that the was recognition on their part, at a very early age that (I'll be generous here :)) some men act 10 years younger than they are. And tolerance of that behavior, bc let's face it, most of them weren't in a position to go anywhere on their own--not in that country/society/time.

Linda wrote: ":)
It's a good point, Chance, that of choosing to act that way vs having the label imposed upon you. Yes, what came to my mind, actual fact, was that the was recognition on their part, at a very e..."

Yet, it was interesting that when Martha changes how she reacts to them, she snags the big fish. I doubt that was a good contest to have won, but it was her stepping outside the matronly attitude that won the man. So to speak. In some respects, her new fiance acts more mature around her parents than she does, but that's not surprising.

Okay, I"m bowing out bc I'm still not finished, have 100 pp to go. And if I know the ending, there might be very little left to read for! :)

I'm just at the point where she's realized that she's a hot commodity in town, and starting to enjoy it...and realizing that she need to be proactive not reactive. Now, no kidding, bowing out until I've finished!

Mike wrote: "Wait. Martha changed? (and, yes, dodging maternal/matronizing in a big way)"

SPOILER ALERT

Actually, my mothering instinct has never been taken out of its wrapper, so no need to dodge me. I've seen women (and some men) demonstrate the matronizing attitude, and never liked it except for the most backward of children.

Anyway, I thought Martha owned up to times when she acted maternal, and she observed that the other girls acted that way as well. Martha was changed by her experience with the Jewish lover, and when she re-enters the club, she insists on speaking to the fellows on a different level. It worked for one, and he was entrapped in her glowing appeal. Her willingness and sexual experience probably didn't hurt, of course.

Mike wrote: "ADDITIONAL SPOILER ALERT

I saw the last guy as just another in her unfortunate string."

I saw it that way too but am willing to give it another look. That Martha was not mothering anymore - I don't think I noticed that.

Martha focused on issues that had been important to her, from her reading. After her affair, and humiliation, she separated herself for awhile, and remembered who she had been before the club life. After that, I thought she forced the boys into conversations, and wasn't flattered by their words--especially since the boys' attentions had moved on to the next new girl.

Martha is certainly mercurial, but the tide shifted in a more interesting way, at least until the engagement. At that point, she regressed. But, maturation can ebb and flow like that.

Chance wrote: "Martha focused on issues that had been important to her, from her reading. After her affair, and humiliation, she separated herself for awhile, and remembered who she had been before the club life...."

I can't remember the time line exactly but what's funny to me is how she had only just arrived in the city, wasn't it like within months?

Jonathan wrote: "Chance wrote: "Martha focused on issues that had been important to her, from her reading. After her affair, and humiliation, she separated herself for awhile, and remembered who she had been before..."

The time element is intriguing, especially since the series is autobiographical. Did time seem condensed because she wrote it as an adult looking back over childhood, or was time 'fast' to show the change from the slow passing in the country, to a fast-paced city life? When I moved from Ohio to NYC, time sped by, filled with more happenings than I had ever encountered, even at the university. So, real, or just imagined, that shortening of time?

I abandoned this book, and here's why. "I'm abandoning this book about halfway in. Although I'm anxious to read more Lessing (for some reason I've never read any), and I might skip ahead to the last volume in this series, and although I admire Lessing's attempt to write an updated Kristin Lavransdattir, MQ lacks the passion KL had, and I just can't sustain interest in this novel. I think the stagnation is the point--it's a fallout both of colonialism and of being a woman in this time and place. But I get the point already. I felt this way about The Stone Diaries--that book needed to be written, and it needed to say what it said (I knew many older women who felt perfectly described and vindicated by it), but let's face it, it was terribly boring. Also, cf Michelle Huneven's recent Off Course, which doesn't have the political heft of MQ or even Stone, but which explores the ways in which promising young women are particularly vulnerable to a loss of direction."

I'm actually quite absorbed in this book so far. Probably because the setting is familiar to me and I'm enjoying the beautiful descriptions of the landscape which reflects what I love about living in South Africa. Also I'm finding the British viewpoint of the country new and interesting because I've only ever read South African literature which was written by locals. It's not to me that good of a book but it's enough for me to finish it.