The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

In this section we see several of our threads take an interesting turn.

First, Lord Nidderdale makes another attempt to win Marie's hand, and shows himself in a somewhat better light. He tries to get to know Marie, and finds he rather likes her. He wants to let her know how unworthy Felix is, but won't tell tales on him. If Marie truly has some money firmly in her control, this might be a match that could come off. How has your opinion of young Nidderdale and of Marie Melmotte changed?

Dolly Longstaffe sets in motion a train of events that appears set to reveal the truth of the Melmotte "fortune". What did you think of the great dinner party and of how Melmotte and society at large handled the affair?

What do you think of Georgiana Longstaffe's engagement? What about the anti-semitism expressed in this section? Is Trollope espousing this sentiment, or exposing it to criticism? Or is he hedging his bets?

Were you surprised that Melmotte won the election? Does anyone know if this represented any actual election result that Trollope might have been against? What about his party deserting him at his dinner party the night before the election?

Please share your thoughts on this next section of our novel.

Lord Nidderdale is the most likeable and decent of all those idle young men like Dolly and Felix.
Marie is gaining knowledge and strength in the course of the book. I hope she gets over her infatuation for the useless Felix.
The anti-semitism in this section is hard to take but I hope it is Trollope showing the prevailing attitudes of the time, not his own feelings.
I am surprised that Melmotte won, but am not surprised that his party deserted him.
This section shows the power of rumour-the rats are deserting the sinking ship.

This may seem a weak comparison-but Miles was blatantly cheating at cards with no consequences, while Melmotte was playing at higher stakes and was ostracized because he was an outsider.

An interesting quote from ch. 57, about the rumours of the Melmotte forgery/swindle:

(Young Nidderdale) had heard the rumour, and of course felt that it behoved him to be on his guard more specially than anyone else. But he had not believed what he had heard. That men should be thoroughly immoral, that they should gamble, get drunk, run into debt, and make love to other men's wives, was to him a matter of everyday life....But he was not as yet quite old enough to believe in swindling. It had been impossible to convince him that Miles Grendall had cheated at cards, and the idea that Mr. Melmotte had forged was as improbable and shocking to him as that an officer should run away in battle.

Interesting (and to me admirable) that society still held a sense that a gentleman's word was inviolable, and that they could trust each other so thoroughly. This of course left society open to the very swindlers who could take full advantage of this trust.

And that's why the swindlers and cheaters succeed! But are there many people like Nidderdale? Or is he especially trusting?

I agree that this was a good section as the story advanced in many areas. Some comments:

1) Prior to this, Melmotte was seen and discussed from the view of others, In this section we finally get to see things from Melmotte's point of view. This delay in getting Melmotte's point of view works well as it expands and refreshes the story at the 3/5 point.

2) There was much anti-Semitism in Trollope's day and Trollope is writing realistically about it. It doesn't bother me since it reflects the time and it is important to read about the people of the time accurately. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. From my reading of many Trollopes, he seems less prejudiced than the vast majority but is not a crusader.
I actually found it interesting that, with the anti-Semitism, there are still many like Georgiana who, even if they have to hold their nose while doing so, are willing to marry a Jew at all. Trollope's exploration of marrying a Jew also enables him to make such comments as this one about Lady Monogram's husband:
"Sir Damask's religion had never been doubted, though except on the occasion of his marriage no acquaintance of his had probably ever seen him in church."

3) I agree that Lord Nidderdale takes on some positive elements in this section. His wooing of Marie gives Trollope another opportunity for his social commentary. as in this summation of how the nobility and upper class society maintains itself:
"Rank squanders money; trade makes it; - and then trade purchases rank by re-gilding its splendour. The arrangement, as it affects aristocracy generally, is well understood, and was quite approved of by the old marquis - so that he felt himself to be justified in eating up the property, which his son's future marriage would renew as a matter of course."

It's the throw-in of bon mots like the two above ones that make me so enjoy reading Trollope.

Does the timeline seem "off" to anyone else? Apparently the party took place four days after the attempted elopement, but it seems like there were too many events (and too many social and emotional changes) crowded between for it to be only four days.

It seems like Trollope is showing the antisemitism of the characters, but he himself appears neutral. I'm also thinking of the lawyer in Orley Farm. Though many of the characters disliked him, Trollope showed him in a rather positive light. He doesn't present Brehgert a bad man either, though many of the characters have a negative opinion of him. I don't remember how much of him was shown in this section, so I won't say more. So far, Georgiana is the only one willing to marry a man she doesn't love.

The Nidderdale/Marie match could work if she let it. He likes her, could probably love her after some time together, and I think he could have won her over if her father hadn't been throwing him at her. Having someone pushed at you is a romance-killer.

I haven't been paying that much attention to the timeline. Trollope jumps around in this book more than the others I've read.

We've talked in precious book discussions about how Trollope plans his books out well ahead of time but still seems to forget to dot a few "i's" and cross a few 't's'. I've come to expect a certain amount of sloppiness on Trollope and not to "sweat the small stuff."
Thus, I think I'm oblivious to any irregularities in timelines by now so I can't confirm or correct your suspicions, Lori.
I find it's funny how Lord D finds Marie so much more attractive now that she shows she has "gumption." He thinks she could help make life more "jolly." It adds to his character that he thinks highly of this attribute and doesn't want a totally deferential wife.

I ALWAYS notice timelines, so it's incredibly distracting for me if they're off. It sometimes comes close to ruining the whole book. I've learned to let it go a bit for classics, which might have been serialized, making it harder to refine things.

Lori wrote: "I ALWAYS notice timelines.."

I guess I operate under the "ignorance is bliss" philosophy, probably because it's fairly easy to comply with.

Delighted to encounter our old friends the firm of Slow and Bideawhile, that figured in Orley Farm and Miss McKenzie. Such amusing but appropriate names.

Bill wrote: "Delighted to encounter our old friends the firm of Slow and Bideawhile, that figured in Orley Farm and Miss McKenzie. Such amusing but appropriate names."

But alas, no Chaffenbrass.

Thanks, Bill, I thought I recognized the law firm name but couldn't remember which novel. Agreed, Brian, it would have been nice to meet Chaffenbrass again!

Does the name Squercum have any connotation (similar to Slow and Bedeawhile?)

Frances wrote: "Does the name Squercum have any connotation (similar to Slow and Bedeawhile?)."

Not that I can think of, but it is still a name to elicit a schoolboy's snigger.

I think Marie should accept Lord Nidderdale, he has been rather nice with her, but we do not know yet if they would have some of Melmotte's money in case of marriage, and I do not think that without money it could be an happy marriage.
I am not at all surprised that Melmotte won the election. I liked the chapter where we are shown what he thinks; I think that people like him are what the others make them: he is a swindler because the others let him be (the Longestaffes did not press for money at the beginning, Paul could obtain nothing in the board meetings), and he is now a politician because he has been elected; perhaps in this way he will be able to save his business (I am thinking of our own swindler, Berlusconi: it is not his fault if Italians voted him, we made him what he was, in this way he saved himself and his companies).
Some did not go to the dinner party, they were ready to dump Melmotte, I am waiting to see how their behaviour will change after the election.
I find that Lady Monogram is a deeply hateful character. She and Georgiana are not friends, after a quarrel Trollope writes something like "and they were friends again" and it is laughable. She behaves really badly with Georgiana in front of his father, disgracing her.
Trollope seems rather neutral about the anti-semitism he describes, but why this jewish suitor has to be old, fat and with dyed hair?

I think in this case he has to be old because Georgiana is considered old, at 32. She isn't rich, and she hasn't got a sweet personality, so a young man would not choose her for a wife. It sounds she missed her opportunity to get married while younger by being too choosy.
Lady Monogram is a fair weather friend, and a phony as well. But I am sure many other society women were just like her.

For me Georgiana is on the whole superficial, social climbing, vain and prejudiced to the point of hatred. Although I have always been sympathetic to the status of Victorian women and understanding that a marriage based in economic stability is the often only way they have to assure their future, Georgiana goes beyond. She, as the narrator notes, has always held too high an opinion of herself and been methodical in her reckoning of what type of husband she could snare- title and wealth. Love does not seem to even enter into her calculation. Mr. Brehgert deserves better than Georgiana, just as John Crumb deserves better than Ruby. Both men seem honest and hardworking and in love with their potential brides. While these women focus only on the physical drawbacks of the men and do not take their character into account.
That Georgiana is the main mouthpiece for this vile antiSemitism does make me believe that Trollope is reflecting a viewpoint present in that contemporary society. As a related point, I recently learned from an English lit professor that during the 18th century through to the late 19th century, the Evangelical community actually enthusiastically promoted the conversion of Jewish people. (There is is book on the topic which I haven’t read yet). I could never understand why many Trollope characters were referred to as having been Jewish or rumored to have been Jewish, even though they practiced Christianity. Evidently, it was thought to be a mitzvah- good deed- to convert Jews. Mr. Brehgert, much to Georgiana’s dismay, doesn’t fall into this category as he is an observant Jew.

For me, Melmotte and his success seems quite like the success of another “political” figure who won an election despite the rumors, the proven truths of his criminal character and unethical, irresponsible practices in life, business and now government which are ongoing and evident everyday. Sadly, people are now paying for it with their lives.

Melmotte does seem to have been saved for the moment by Slow and Bideawhile admitting that both the Longestaffe’s had agreed to give him the title-deeds before being paid for the sale of the property. I agree that seeing events from his POV brings another level of understanding to his character.

“He, too, in his manner, assured himself that a great part of him would escape Oblivion. ‘Non omnis moriar,’ in some language of his own, was chanted by him within his own breast, as he sat there looking out on his own magnificent suite of rooms from the armchair which had been consecrated by the use of an Emperor.”

Non omnis moriar multa pars mei
Vitabit Libitinam. . . .
Horace, Odes 3.30.6-7

“Not all of me shall die, a great part of me will escape Death. “ This is Horace’s summation of his legacy as the greatest Latin lyric poet. Part of Trollop’s joke is that Melmotte has surely never studied Latin (“in some language of his own”) and that he would probably rate having given a dinner for the Emperor of China and being elected to Parliament as the equivalent of writing immortal poetry.

Bill, I am nominating you for the post of resident Classics Scholar on the Readers Review! In all seriousness, thanks for posting this-I'm sure that those of us without the knowledge of the Classics that Trollope probably expected in his readers all really appreciate this. It's one of the things that draws many of us to the group-getting all the extra background and insights from other members.

Linda wrote: "For me Georgiana is on the whole superficial, social climbing, vain and prejudiced to the point of hatred. Although I have always been sympathetic to the status of Victorian women and understanding..."

Lots of great points, Linda. I feel a smidgen of pity for Georgiana, probably raised to consider herself worthy of a title. Trollope wrote brilliantly of her gradually declining expectations for a husband, always just too good for what she was "worth" on the marriage market. Her ending up with a 50 year old unattractive merchant (I will leave the religious angle aside, Christian or not he is still a huge "settle" for someone who at the outset imagined marrying an earl) who she clearly does not love is a huge comedown, and is she understands may cost her her family and possibly her society.

Yes, the parallels to a current political leader are astonishing!

Daniela wrote: "I think Marie should accept Lord Nidderdale, he has been rather nice with her, but we do not know yet if they would have some of Melmotte's money in case of marriage, and I do not think that withou..."

I agree, Lord Nidderdale is turning out better than I'd originally thought, and he is certainly changing his view of Marie. Perhaps it is her turning him down that has suddenly made him more interested!

I didn't think of Berlusconi while reading of Melmotte, but good point! Most of us in North America (and maybe other parts of the world) are thinking of Trump. Any other politicians that come to mind?

I agree with Lori and Brian. It really seems from the passage about Georgiana's engagement that Trollope was illustrating the antisemitism as one of the many prejudices his characters held, rather than as a personal view of his. Somehow I doubt this is something we'll finally ascertain in Trollope's _Autobiography_...

However, it is hard to say because of the way he frequently seems to chuse "outsiders" as his villains.

Thanks for looking up "Non omnis moriar", Bill. Normally, I look up all these Latin phrases, but the bit about "in some language of his own" led me to believe that the Latin or quote was somehow incorrect (as filtered through Melmotte's mind). It appears from your summary that Trollope just meant Melmotte said it to himself in one of the vulgar tongues, likely English, German, or French.

Linda, it's all very well to criticize these women for focusing on the men's physical deficiencies, but they are after all going to have to perform their marital duties with them...