Shakespeare Fans discussion

No longer mourn for me when I am dead
Than you shall hear the surly sullen bell
Give warning to the world that I am fled
From this vile world with vilest worms to dwell:
Nay, if you read this line, remember not
The hand that writ it, for I love you so,
That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot,
If thinking on me then should make you woe.
O! if, I say, you look upon this verse,
When I perhaps compounded am with clay,
Do not so much as my poor name rehearse;
But let your love even with my life decay;
Lest the wise world should look into your moan,
And mock you with me after I am gone.

This is an interesting contrast with Sonnet 122. There, the lover notes that he will ever remember the beloved, as long as his capacity to do so, whether in this life or beyond it, survives. Here, the lover urges the beloved to forget him when he has passed, so that the beloved will not be melancholy with memory; not even if others should mention the departed. So much is the compassion of the lover for the beloved.

I cannot read about the death-knell of "the surly solemn bell" without thinking of John Donne's "Therefore, send not to know/ For whom the bell tolls,/It tolls for thee." Had Shakespeare known of this later poem, he no doubt would have approved of the sentiment of the interconnectedness of human minds and hearts (though wider than that of a specific lover and beloved, as in this sonnet) it expresses.

Great thoughts Tom. I think its marvelous you noticing the profound words about bells. Bells are such magical noise makers. I miss hearing bells in our neighbourhood as very few chirches have mass right now.

It seems to me you are correct Shakespeare would have approved of Donne's bell verse...I'm just sure that Donne must have been inspired by Shakespeare's use of bell in this sonnet....no? I wonder?

Yes, Donne's bell, like S's, tolls for the dead. Here in Norwich too, bells are "magical noise makers", but the tradition of the passing bell has died out, at least for people of less distinction than Princess Diana.

But I would remind Tom and Candy, that whatever you might think from looking it up on the internet, Donne's words are not from a poem, but are prose (Meditation 17 in the Devotions),

See http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/do...

3rd paragraph.

Thanks for the correction about the literary form and context of Donne's famous line, Martin.

David Tenant reads this sonnet beautifully if you haven't already seen it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUNrs...

Ah ha! Thank you Martin!

I just remembered that someone did a news story about bells here in Chicago a couple years ago. The Buddhist Temple of Chicago was included.

I think you can hear some bells here...

https://interactive.wbez.org/curiousc...

Loved the Chicago bells.

"Do not so much as my poor name rehearse"

I think there is something going on very interesting in S's use of the word "rehearse".

Nowadays "rehearse" usually means a practice of some event, for example a play, opera or concert. The old meaning is to repeat something again, often in a way that people find unnecessary or a bit tedious. This was the meaning in S's time, and actually, this is the way I usually use it. "I won't rehearse again the familiar arguments against vaccination" etc. Where does it come from? well, a hearse or herse was a harrow, a machine for breaking up the soil. Look at this google search to get the idea,

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=far...

And rehearse meant repeatedly harrowing, a bit like turning over the same material again and again.

The coffin is drawn by a hearse, but originally the hearse was a metal frame, like a harrow, placed over the coffin. It could be used as a frame for candles. Perhaps in S's time a farming harrow was actually used for this purpose. So S's "rehearse" is another image of death, suggesting a surround for the coffin.

(Got this idea by tracing the words in the Shorter OED.)

See also this article https://www.jstor.org/stable/24708737

There is a lot of similar info round the internet.

Martin wrote: "Loved the Chicago bells.

"Do not so much as my poor name rehearse"

I think there is something going on very interesting in S's use of the word "rehearse".."

That's all very interesting research. it can be so easy to scan Shakespeare and immediately assume we know the meaning of the more familiar words.

Clari,

I think it might actually be an interesting idea for a new thread to admit when we "immediately assume we know the meaning of the more familiar words", and later find out how wrong we were. A bit like misheard lyrics in a pop song. My best contribution would be Ariel from the Tempest, saying to Prospero,

Thou call'dst me up at midnight to fetch dew
From the still-vex'd Bermoothes ...

I did not know who the Bermoothes were, and imagined a family, Mr and Mrs Bermooth, a few kids, all very jealous of their dew in the back garden. Then Ariel came and took some and they have been angry with him ever since. Later of course I learnt that the Bermoothes are the Bermudas, and "still-vexed" means "ever-turbulent" and refers to the roaring sea. (Are the Bermudas really like that?)

You speak of research, but all I did was look words up in the dictionary. Incidentally, I've been calling it the COED for years in S fans ("Concise Oxford English Distionary") but I actually have the SOED ("Shorter Oxford English Dictionary"), You would expect the Shorter to be shorter than the Concise, but the opposite is true, in fact the Shorter is two immense volumes of 2,670 pages of 3 columns of tiny print.

Very useful ...

Great stuff on "rehearse" Martin!! Wonderful!