Tournament of Books discussion

location to discuss the Booker winner Shuggie Bain by Douglas Stuart

This one got my zombie vote.

Loved this book.

It's strange that I remember nothing of this one after listening to it earlier this year. Can those who enjoyed it share what made it stand out for you?

This is one that I read solely for TOB and, surprisingly to me, it's really stuck around in my brain. I don't really know why, but I think it's something about the smallness of it, the incredible intimacy of the pain and the softness of that mother/son relationship. It feels so relatable and personal. I didn't feel like the book was formally or ideologically inventive, which is what really interests me as a reader, but it's burrowed deep in my heart since I finished it.

Heidi wrote: "This is one that I read solely for TOB and, surprisingly to me, it's really stuck around in my brain. I don't really know why, but I think it's something about the smallness of it, the incredible i..."

This is a wonderful way of describing it, Heidi. I felt the same way. It grabbed me emotionally, and I think partly because the author captures that intimacy and painful layers of relationship and struggle in families. I think it also grabbed me because I recognized so much about the portrayals...the terror of alcoholism, the pain of being "different" and mistreated because of it, the bleakness of the culture around the family, and the resilience of love despite it all.

Lauren wrote: "It's strange that I remember nothing of this one after listening to it earlier this year. Can those who enjoyed it share what made it stand out for you?"

Yes, I felt the tenderness of the mother/son bond. I just realized that I loved Hamnet for that same reason. But it's also just a really good story....so many TOB books seem to be about either current events or trying to do something unique and different...it's a head thing when what I want is a heart thing.

I thought this a beautiful book with incredibly confident and impactful writing for a debut. It''s not a classic ToB book' for me, in the sense that I look to the ToB for books I wouldn't have otherwise read (or known about, in some cases). But it will be a tough one to beat for me in terms of overall story and writing.

This is definitely a “heart” book (as opposed to a “head” one). I read this when it showed up on the Booker longlist (it went on to win the Booker Prize), and I appreciated it overall. But, and this may be an unpopular opinion here, it felt a bit relentless and repetitive to me. I love the mother-son story, but this world is incredibly bleak and hopeless. At times, it felt like I was reading a kind of poverty porn such that I felt emotionally manipulated at times. It’s incredibly difficult for me to read stories where children are mistreated, however, so I’m sure I’m not the fairest reader for this novel.

And living with an alcoholic as a child feels bleak, hopeless, and repetitive. I appreciated the realness of that, having lived through such a world, it didn't feel like any kind of porn to me.

Gwendolyn wrote: "This is definitely a “heart” book (as opposed to a “head” one). I read this when it showed up on the Booker longlist (it went on to win the Booker Prize), and I appreciated it overall. But, and thi..."

That may have been part of why I also struggled with this one, and I likely just wasn't in the mood for something this heavy at the time.

It's helpful to see everyone's thoughts here on why they loved it though. Thanks for sharing!

Audra...well stated and I completely agree with your sentiments. I had the same take based on experience. It was very realistic of the challenging circumstances many face. If people feel manipulated by reality I have no way to respond to that. Other than....there but for the grace of God, etc.

Yup.

I understand what you are all saying. I can see how the relentlessness of the struggle in this novel is realistic and similar to what some people have been through. I think my choice of the word “manipulated” may not have been the best one. I think what I was really trying to say is that this book wrung me out emotionally in a way that I wasn’t able to fully appreciate this year. It’s been a struggle with the pandemic and work and two young kids. I didn’t have enough room left in my heart for Shuggie Bain, which is my issue and not the book’s fault.

I only got about 75 pages into this before letting it go. I tried...because at another time I think I would have been gripped by it, but like Gwendolyn I just wasn't able to let it in. I knew what it would do to me, reading more at a time my mind is already bleak enough.

And also, I felt like I'd read this before, the miserable childhood, poverty and alcoholism, I didn't see any benefit in making myself go through that again.

I can understand many people finding this novel, heavy, bleak and depressing. However for me I love reading novels like this to make me appreciate how very lucky I was to have grown up in a loving family that truly cared for my brother and I. It is only fate, destiny, luck, call it what you will that we get the childhood and life we do. Books like this, apart from being brilliantly written, remind me to never take for granted my life and family, and to be thankful and live each minute to the full, because for many, way too many children, their minutes and lives of happiness are stolen from them through no fault of their own. It's heartbreaking.

Agreed, Collin. I have the same reaction to books like this when I read them. But...I also completely understand how people might not be able to take it, especially during the year we've all just had. We can only shoulder so much at a time.

Gwendolyn...I totally appreciate your clarification. I've heard that comment about manipulation before from readers on here and have always scratched my head at it. I like books that make me feel. If I'm not grabbed emotionally by something then it has to offer a really stellar intellectual stimulation somehow...otherwise, why bother? So I appreciate your clarifying and choosing a different way to say why it was a difficult read. I concur with that completely. In my own review, I commented on the writing itself being a 5 but my "enjoyment" was a 3, because it was so difficult in content. So, I get it!

I was completely transported to Glasgow by the similies and metaphors and details of daily life. I could hear the hiss of the beer can opening and smell the green damp of winter. The audiobook added to my enjoyment.

This was so unrelentingly sad. I think the writing was really well done, and to me it is a book that accomplishes its purpose in spades. I just wish no person ever experienced this childhood.

Phyllis wrote: "I just wish no person ever experienced this childhood."

And not just Shuggie - I'm thinking of the scene toward the end when Shuggie met up with a friend as she was making her weekly delivery of clean clothes and personal hygiene items to her homeless alcoholic mother, who refused any other help from her.

I've got about 150 pages left and I'm struggling to find the motivation to complete this. Each chapter is just a new saga of how can things get worse. But for my desire to read all the Booker winners and to be able to discuss this for the TOB, I would have given up on this 100 pages ago.

Tristan wrote: "I've got about 150 pages left and I'm struggling to find the motivation to complete this. Each chapter is just a new saga of how can things get worse. But for my desire to read all the Booker winne..."
Yeah, Tristan, it never lets up in doing what it's doing -- worse, and worser.

I had started this when it was on the Booker shortlist, in audio because I thought "cool accent!" but the other thing about audio is it's harder to escape and the combination of the content being pretty bleak and feeling I'd been down this road before made me DNF it at the time. It won the Booker though. So I'm trying it again.

At this point I'm 2/3 through the eBook. I still am feeling this been down this road before except maybe not in Glasgow - I've read so many books set during the Troubles that feel similarly but Shuggie Bain has more mundane danger - there are lines between Catholics and Protestants, but not bombings. There is violence but it's more of your standard bullying and sexual abuse that is in every community. Absolutely horrific to experience but this puts the novelist in a challenge of writing something that isn't just everyday yet violent, it has to somehow stand out... So forgive me, forgive me for saying that the stakes don't seem that high somehow, and that this isn't standing out a lot to me. It has its moments, like the bathtub fridge plus dancing is a pretty good one.

A few points I'm a little stuck on and I'm hoping my Glaswegians and those more familiar with this time period/landscape can help with, but they are details from the text that you might not want spoiled so I'll put them behind a tag.

(view spoiler)[
1. This comes later in the text but WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BABY?
2. Agnes seems to think when Shug moves the family that it's going to be a good thing and then it is terrible. What I don't understand is why he went to the trouble of relocating them away from the family that could have supported them if he wanted to leave. Why? What motivation? He says something like he wanted to see if she would come? It seemed mercilessly cruel to the children.
3. The Devil's Pulpit, is this supposed to be the same Devil's Pulpit natural phenomenon that is technically in Sterling? I have a hard time picturing the landscape, is it bogs? Is it side effect of mining the land? When Leek and Shuggie are traipsing around, I can't picture it in my head and would like to. (hide spoiler)]

Also Lizzie is a bit of a surprise as an old lady.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I had started this when it was on the Booker shortlist, in audio because I thought "cool accent!" but the other thing about audio is it's harder to escape and the combination of the content being p..."

(view spoiler)[1. We never find out for sure. I suspect he just dropped the kid off at an orphanage.

2. I think Big Shug wanted Agnes where he could keep her available to him but also keep her shamed/humble. Though his original intention in applying for the council home might have been more optimistic. Shug doesn't particularly care about the children I think. Catherine and Leek are not his and Shuggie is too small. His understanding would be that the raising of children is the responsibility of the mother.

3. Not sure about the landscape but I pictured hills of soft dirt left over from the mining with very little vegetation. (hide spoiler)]

Ruthiella wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I had started this when it was on the Booker shortlist, in audio because I thought "cool accent!" but the other thing about audio is it's harder to escape and the combi..."

Okay but (view spoiler)[
1. I was absolutely sure he killed the child. Just like, deep down feeling of OMGDIDHEJUST....
2. I see what you're saying about the children - I don't think he sees how Agnes has intentionally blocked the first two from their father so that Shug can be more of their father, and then he abandons them too. (hide spoiler)]

I gave up at about the 3/4th mark. It’s really well written and I see the heart people talk about, but it’s just SO sad and I can read the handwriting on the wall that there’s no happy ending coming (I gave up after the heart-breaking relapse). I am struggling to read anything serious these days and I just had to let Shuggie go.

Gwendolyn wrote: "... it felt a bit relentless and repetitive to me. At times, it felt like I was reading a kind of poverty porn such that I felt emotionally manipulated at times..."

I'm enjoying the different viewpoints. Gwendolyn, I think my views of the novel are closest to yours. I listened to the audiobook, which was wonderfully read, but the unrelenting grimness and the length of the novel just started to seem overwrought. I ended up feeling like the novel would have benefited from a bit of "less is more" editing.

I enjoyed this interview on KCRW Bookworm, talking about the author's mother who shares the mother's name and much much more. If authors want us to stop asking them how autobiographical their novels are, they should stop writing autobiographical novels... ;)

So is it pronounced "Shoogie Bain" (makes sense with "Hugh") or does it rhyme with "buggy"?

Kyle wrote: "So is it pronounced "Shoogie Bain" (makes sense with "Hugh") or does it rhyme with "buggy"?"

Having listened to the audiobook, I would say that Shuggie rhymes better with BOOGIE (think "boogie woogie bugle boy in company B") But it is a Scottish accent so, I might also say it is in between boogie and buggy if that's possible?

I've got about 50 pages left, and this is definitely one of the best books this year - so wonderfully engaging and well-written - but not one that I see myself ever coming back to. It's painful. Great, but painful.

Having finished it, I'd say that it's a close run between this and Deacon for my favorite (with Piranesi, Sharks, and Transcendent Kingdom close behind). No doubt it was tough- and this is probably one I'll not reread for a long, long time- but again, the writing was spectacular.

Care wrote: "Kyle wrote: "So is it pronounced "Shoogie Bain" (makes sense with "Hugh") or does it rhyme with "buggy"?"

Having listened to the audiobook, I would say that Shuggie rhymes better with BOOGIE (thin..."

Ha, having just finished the audiobook, I was going to say it rhymes better with buggy :)

I've been procrastinating on reading this book despite the many glowing reviews simply because I wasn't in the mood for the inexorable devastation of the story. I'm only halfway through it, but count me among those who have been completely swept up in it. Incredible scene setting. Very impressed thus far.