Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Mr. Bennet had known for a month that his cousin Mr. William Collins – the heir to the estate - would be visiting the family for a week. He informs his wife of the fact on the day of the gentleman’s arrival. Mr. Collins is rector of the parish at Lady Catherine De Bourgh’s estate at Rosings. “Mr. Bennet’s expectations were fully answered. His cousin was as absurd as he had hoped…”

To Mr. Collins’s thinking, a way to atone for the unfortunate inheritance situation is to marry one of the daughters. Upon learning that Jane might be engaged soon he moves on to Elizabeth.
During a visit to Maryton Elizabeth witnesses a strained encounter between Mr. Darcy and a newly introduced officer, Mr. Wickham.

The following evening the sisters and Mr. Collins are back in Maryton to have dinner at their aunt’s and uncle’s. Mr. Wickham was also invited. “Mr. Wickham was the happy man towards whom almost every female eye was turned, and Elizabeth was the happy woman by whom he finally seated himself.” She burns with curiosity to know more about his connection to Mr. Darcy, and to her delight he volunteers.

Elizabeth relates her news to Jane who cautions her not to jump to conclusions even though it looks bad. The Bingleys stop by to extend personal invitations to the anticipated ball at Netherfield Park. In a later conversation, Mr. Collins asks Elizabeth to reserve the first two dances. It dawns on her he may have more than a fleeting interest in her.

For Elizabeth the ball at Netherfield becomes a big disappointment, no Wickham to dance with, but instead Mr. Collins and Mr. Darcy. Then Mr. Collins won’t let her dance with anyone else. Several members of her family display embarrassing behavior. Ah, but does she see the beam in her own eye?

The very next morning Mr. Collins proposes to Elizabeth. She refuses him. He is not deterred however, dismissing her sincerity as coquetry. “To such perseverance in wilful self-deception Elizabeth would make no reply, and immediately and in silence withdrew”

A battle of the wills ensues to which Mr. Bennet laconically remarks, "An unhappy alternative is before you, Elizabeth. From this day you must be a stranger to one of your parents. Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins, and I will never see you again if you do."

Mr. Collins moves on from Elizabeth to Charlotte Lucas. Jane receives a letter from Caroline Bingley informing her that all of them will spend the winter in London and not to expect them back. Both Jane and Elizabeth wonder what that means concerning Jane’s chances with Charles Bingley.

It takes Mr. Collins exactly three days between proposals. He is now engaged to Charlotte Lucas. Her family couldn’t be more pleased by the upward mobility it will bring after Mr. Bennet’s death. Elizabeth is stunned. She wonders if Charlotte will find genuine happiness.

The friendship between Elizabeth and Charlotte suffers. Mrs. Bennet suffers the gloating of Mrs. Lucas and once again she airs her bitterness regarding the entail to her husband. Jane receives no word from Bingley.

In chapter 13, I notice again how useless these people are, when Mrs Bennet quite firmly states that her daughters don't know how to cook. When the pandemic first hit, I remember reading that the UK royal family were all in their own little quarantine bubbles and thinking, 'Geez, how would that even work? Do these people even know how to boil an egg or make tea? What if they drop the egg on the floor? Do they even know where the mop is, or how to use it? Are the corgis the emergency cleaning crew?' Turns out they all have 'a minimal number of support staff.' Now I'm picturing the Bennets or the Darcys or the Bingleys being forced to shelter in place with no useful life skills whatsoever.

We also get several contrasts to the other characters and their habits. Dinner in the Bennet household happens shortly after Mr Collins' arrival at 4 in the afternoon. At Netherfield it's at 6:30, after dark at this time of year. When Darcy offends Mrs Bennet, he feels no need to placate her, even though she's among the tiny number of people it's acceptable to socialise with. Mr Collins, on the other hand, spends 15 minutes apologising for even suggesting that the Bennet sisters might be able to fend for themselves in a time of need.

Lydia continues to be the most awesome character throughout these chapters. First she has a complete lack of interest in Mr Collins' letter or arrival because he's not in the militia. Then when he's invited to read, she's bored after 3 pages and interrupts him with some regimental news. As a rector, he's presumably doing okay for himself, and as the heir to Longbourne, he's bound for even better, but he's not good looking so she's not interested.

Jen wrote: " Then when he's invited to read, she's bored after 3 pages and interrupts him with some regimental news."

The Fordyce's Sermons to Young Women Collins chooses were first published in 1766. They are very conservative with many warnings about the dangers and vanities of society - so say my footnotes.

The way I read Lydia, she is the one who would benefit from these lessons the most, but for Mr. Collins to choose this text on the evening of his arrival is rather presumptuous.

Kerstin wrote: "The way I read Lydia, she is the one who would benefit from these lessons the most, .."

I read her the same way. I see her as out of touch with the seriousness of the situation, completely self-absorbed, selfish, childish, and frivolous. She embarrasses her two older sisters who try to hush her up when she interrupts Collins with her intention of going to Meryton to hear the latest gossip.

I think it's interesting Mrs. Bennet doesn't know her own daughters. She is so focused on Collins marrying one of them that she steers him toward Elizabeth by hinting that Jane would soon be engaged. She has no idea that Elizabeth would never agree to marrying someone of Collins' caliber.

And Collins swiftly turns his attention from Jane to Elizabeth as if he were exchanging one commodity for another.

Tamara wrote: "I think it's interesting Mrs. Bennet doesn't know her own daughters."

I was wondering about that too.

Tamara wrote: "I think it's interesting Mrs. Bennet doesn't know her own daughters. She is so focused on Collins marrying one of them that she steers him toward Elizabeth by hinting that Jane would soon be engage..."


I just finished the 23rd chapter and I was wondering the same thing. There is a blatant lack of communication, except for Kitty+Lydia and Jane+Lizzy, nobody is talking openly in that family. Mrs. Bennet should have gathered her daughters in private and discuss the matter. Mary would have been a perfect match for Mr. Collins and I don't think she would have refused him.

This lack of communication seems odd to me, was it the norm back then?

Emil wrote: "This lack of communication seems odd to me, was it the norm back then?.."

I don't know if it was the norm back then. There is a lot of talking going on but, as you point out, very little communication.

Kitty and Lydia are in their own orbit of attending balls and chasing men in red coats, with Kitty following Lydia's lead.

Mary is in her own orbit of spouting platitudes which everyone promptly ignores.

Jane and Elizabeth are in their own orbit. They talk to each other, but so far, their talk focuses almost exclusively on Bingley, Darcy, and Wickham--as if to suggest the priority they give to men has consumed all aspects of their lives.

Mrs. Bennet is fluttering about in her own orbit, scampering to get her daughters married off.

And Mr. Bennet is aloof, observing the events as if he were a detached bystander. He sequesters himself in his library to shut out his family. He is particularly flippant when he announces they may all be turned out of their home upon his death.

“The essence of good listening is empathy, which can be achieved only by suspending our preoccupation with ourselves and entering into the experience of the other person.”
- Michael P Nichols, The Lost Art of Listening

I do not feel that Mrs. Bennet has a great deal of empathy for Elizabeth nor do I get the sense that Elizabeth has much empathy for her.

Mike wrote: "“The essence of good listening is empathy, which can be achieved only by suspending our preoccupation with ourselves and entering into the experience of the other person.”
- Michael P Nichols, The ..."

Nice quote!

In chapter 18 we have a very revealing description of Mrs. Bennet:

Elizabeth was the least dear of her children; and though the man [Mr. Collins] and the match were quite good enough for her, the worth of each was eclipsed by Mr. Bingley and Netherfield.
(italics in text)

Instead of loving each of her children as individuals, she ranks them. That's pretty sad. She doesn't have much of a capacity to love.

Emil wrote: "This lack of communication seems odd to me, was it the norm back then? ..."

Don't so many modern works of fiction as well dwell on the dysfunctions of families, which so often originate in failure to listen with empathy? I remember the first time I was around a family where everyone was sharing their plans for the week ahead. It was such a breath of fresh air to me -- I was out of college by then, but I didn't remember similar discussions at all from my own youth. We more or less assumed we knew all that we needed about other members of the family.

Everyone says Mary would have been the most sensible match for Mr Collins, but aside from offering faint praise for his letter, 'In point of composition,' said Mary, 'his letter does not seem defective. The idea of the olive branch perhaps is not wholly new, yet I think it is well expressed.' she doesn't exactly throw herself in front of him. In chapter 15, she doesn't go to Meryton to visit the Philipses with the rest of them. In chapter 16, they all go back to Meryton for dinner, but the girls are most excited to see Mr Wickham To the girls, who could not listen to their cousin, and who had nothing to do but to wish for an instrument, and examine their own indifferent imitations of china on the mantlepiece . Not exactly a portrait of a woman in love.

Jen wrote: "Everyone says Mary would have been the most sensible match for Mr Collins, but aside from offering faint praise for his letter, 'In point of composition,' said Mary, 'his letter does not seem defec..."

Then again this didn´t seem like a question of love, but of a more or less sensible thing to do (Collins was told to get married and by marrying one of the Bennet-sisters he would solve their problem of the inheritance). I guess Mary is the one sister who would have fitted him the most, especially as she doesn't quite seem interested in love (and might be more in line with Charlotte, who Collins ends up marrying).
Having said that, of course we don't get to see an awfull lot of Mary, besides confirmation that she was quite plain and craved attention. So maybe she wouldn't have gone along with a scheme to marry Collins at all.

The thing is, Mr Collins makes it quite clear that he intends to marry one of the Bennets. The whole time he's at Longbourn, Mr Collins only wants someone to sit and listen to him - Mr Bennet, Mrs Philips, Charlotte Lucas. Whatever her views on marriage, whether she's idealistic like her sisters or pragmatic like Charlotte Lucas, Mary clearly sees how badly he wants someone to sit and listen, and yet she avoids doing it.

Marieke wrote: "Having said that, of course we don't get to see an awfull lot of Mary, besides confirmation that she was quite plain and craved attention. So maybe she wouldn't have gone along with a scheme to marry Collins at all..."

In Chapter 22, we are told Mary would have been prepared to marry him:

She rated his abilities much higher than any of the others; there was a solidity in his reflection which often struck her, and though by no means so clever as herself, she thought that if encouraged to read and improve himself by such an example as her's, he might have become a very agreeable companion. But on the following morning, every hope of this kind were done away. Miss Lucas called soon after breakfast, and in a private conversation with Elizabeth related the event of the day before.

Mary's problems is, unlike Charlotte, she doesn't know how to go about catching him.

Charlotte is very calculating in her approach to marriage. She has weighed her options.

​On the one hand, she recognizes Collins is "neither sensible nor agreeable; his society was irksome, and his attachment to her must be imaginary."

On the other hand, she is 27 years old, "without having ever been handsome," and on the verge of being considered an old maid. Collins seems a decent enough man, is employed, has the support of a wealthy benefactor, and will inherit the Bennet's estate.

Her strategy is simple: pay attention to him; feign interest in what he says; laugh at his jokes; agree with him. Strategy successful: Collins proposes.

Because Charlotte is older and more worldly than Mary, she knows how to weigh her options, decide on her goal, plot her course of action, and proceed. In effect, she pursues the same advice she gave to Elizabeth about Jane. She advised against waiting for the man to make his move because he might go elsewhere--which turns out to be poor Mary's plight.

What are the best examples of pride and prejudices per the book's title so far? Mr. Darcy's pride has been discussed and judged both harshly and somewhat defended as earned and discernible from vanity. Are there other examples of pride, or vanity? What about the prejudices? Is Elizabeth's prejudice against Mr. Darcy's pride one of those examples? Is it justified?

Yes, Mary does seem to have some thoughts later that she might have molded Mr Collins to her liking. But when he arrives and escorts them to Meryton, she stays home, and when they go back for cards, it says they all avoid him and leave poor Mrs Philips to talk to him. Perhaps at that point she thought he would focus on Jane and Elizabeth and didn't think about it until they rejected him later. But she certainly does nothing to even get him to notice her.

Tamara wrote: "Charlotte is very calculating in her approach to marriage. She has weighed her options."

Charlotte did exactly what she mentioned before to Elizabeth in chapter 6, she didn't "lose the opportunity of fixing him"... later in the exchange Charlotte ends this way,

"...and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of the person with whom you are to pass your life."
"You make me laugh, Charlotte; but it is not sound. You know it is not sound, and that you would never act in this way yourself."

Boy, does Elizabeth get surprised here!

Because Charlotte is older and more worldly than Mary, she knows how to weigh her options, decide on her goal, plot her course of action, and proceed.

I was thinking along these lines as well. Do we have an idea how old Mary is, 15 maybe? My impression of her is that of a goofy teenager who still has a ways to mature.

David wrote: "What are the best examples of pride and prejudices per the book's title so far? Mr. Darcy's pride has been discussed and judged both harshly and somewhat defended as earned and discernible from van..."

Great questions, David! I was trying to formulate something along these lines this morning :-)

David wrote: " Are there other examples of pride, or vanity?"

Mr. Collins, for one. He must be one of the most stuck-up and absurd characters Jane Austen ever created. Perhaps because she knew life in a rectory so well she had ample material to flesh him out.

What strikes me about Mr. Collins is the gaping discrepancy between his conduct and his profession. He is self-absorbed, pedantic, patronizing, doesn't listen to anyone, in his marriage proposal to Elizabeth speaks only of the benefits to himself, doesn't consider her feelings at all, seeks status, etc. Nowhere does he exemplify the basic Christian concept of 'love thy neighbor as thyself', and he is the shepherd of a Christian flock? Yikes!

I have a hunch he and Charlotte are two peas in a pot. Charlotte comes from a nouveau riche family that prizes status. So does Mr. Collins. She is not a romantic by her own admission, so the lack of courting doesn't faze her one bit. She dismisses discernment of a possible spouse's virtue and character, important aspects to Elizabeth, as so much foolishness. No wonder their friendship is irrevocably altered.

I was thinking along these lines as well. Do we have an idea how old Mary is, 15 maybe?

Lydia is the youngest and she's 15, and Kitty is the 2nd youngest. Mary is exactly in the middle. Lizzie isn't quite 21. So Mary is somewhere between 17 and 19. To us that seems very young, but Elizabeth is almost off the shelf and Jane at not quite 23 is practically over the hill.

Jen wrote: "I was thinking along these lines as well. Do we have an idea how old Mary is, 15 maybe?

Lydia is the youngest and she's 15, and Kitty is the 2nd youngest. Mary is exactly in the middle. Lizzie is..."

If Mary is indeed between 17 and 19 she truly lags in maturity.

Kerstin wrote: "If Mary is indeed between 17 and 19 she truly lags in maturity...."

Hers is the maturity of the child who sticks her nose in a book and seeks solace, and pride, there rather than being involved in the give and take of family and friends? She is probably the child who "should have been a boy" after two older sisters?

David wrote: "What are the best examples of pride and prejudices per the book's title so far? Mr. Darcy's pride has been discussed and judged both harshly and somewhat defended as earned and discernible from van..."

I, too, love your question, David. I love how pride is embedded in every character Austen creates in this book (imho). Kerstin is a perhaps a bit hard on the pride of Collins in her description @21, although also probably accurate -- I'm never sure when Austen is pricking balloons with wicked satire versus simply being devastatingly observant. I read Collins as a character fighting within himself for self respect, despite all his (obnoxious) bluster. I would take him as having a great deal of self-pride in (generously?!) offering to marry one of the Bennet girls (women -- I'm sure not an appellation that would have occurred to him??) in exchange for being the beneficiary of the inheritance laws of the time -- which he would have viewed through the foggy eye glasses of British class, Christian charity, and masculine primacy. (The misty self assurance that he "deserved" the inheritance?)

Mr. Collins seems to check all the boxes for the stock pompous clergyman character, yet I can't help but feel a little sorry for him, and I do not know why.

Perhaps recalling Aristotle's advice to try and hit the mark between deficiency and excess would be well worth remembering here? A deficiency in pride removes self-respect, while an excess promotes self-importance. What would we call the deficiency and excesses of prejudice?

I am also wondering about the relationship between pride and prejudice. Is there a causal connection between them, or is their correspondence a spurious one caused by one or more confounding variables? Would, Snobs and Snobery, be an adequate alternative title?

David wrote: "What are the best examples of pride and prejudices per the book's title so far? Mr. Darcy's pride has been discussed and judged both harshly and somewhat defended as earned and discernible from van..."

I like how he and the entire Meryton assembly judge each other within 5 minutes of his arrival: he discerns that none of them are worth talking to, and they conclude he's an insufferable snob.

The most consequential example of prejudice is Elizabeth's conversation with Wickham during the cards party at the Philips' house. Here's someone who's confirming all of her biases, and she's completely oblivious to how he draws her into the subject, then keeps qualifying everything he says 'I have no right to give my opinion,' said Wickham, 'as to his being agreeable or otherwise. I am not qualified to form one. and then goes on to bash Darcy's character to smithereens. He pretends to change the subject, he's so disinterested in the topic, then comes back for round two. I also like how the reason Elizabeth believes him A young man too, like you, whose very countenance may vouch for your being amiable' is exactly the same as now: we still think we can tell if someone is lying by looking at their faces (we can't). By now he has Elizabeth hooked. She tries in vain to change the subject but can't and has to know more, until we have a very ugly portrait of the entire Darcy family and the De Bourghs. At the end, Elizabeth allowed that he had given a very rational account of it, but the careful reader is right to be suspicious of Mr Wickham.

David wrote: "What would we call the deficiency and excesses of prejudice?"

Prejudice is a pre-judgment, to form an opinion before one has all the facts, to jump to conclusions. So I would say prejudice is the deficiency of good judgment. I’m having a little trouble here formulating an excess – what is the excess of good judgment?

"I am also wondering about the relationship between pride and prejudice."

Pride, in its excessive form, is to have an inordinary opinion of oneself. So with both, pride and prejudice, we have counterbalances missing, humility to counter excess pride, and I would say prudence and restraint to counter prejudice.

This is what I came up with with the help of my morning coffee, anybody, feel free to take another stab at it. ;-)

David wrote: "Mr. Collins seems to check all the boxes for the stock pompous clergyman character, yet I can't help but feel a little sorry for him, and I do not know why."

I think he is not fully his own man.
It comes out in his relationship with Lady Catherine de Bourgh. So far we've only met her through him, and there is something off in his deference to her. It seems excessive as if his whole sense of self worth is totally dependent on her. Yes, she offered him the lucrative position, but to let her micro-manage where to put shelves? He is a bachelor, I am sure the accommodations are sufficient. Then she strongly suggests he get married which he promptly takes as marching orders. It is the only reason he contacted the Mr. Bennet. He may be pompous to everyone else, those he can control or impress, but when it comes to people whom he knows are superior to him, here his benefactress, he seems to wither.

Kerstin wrote: "I’m having a little trouble here formulating an excess – what is the excess of good judgment?"

Is there such a thing as an excess of good judgment? I think of judgment as being either good or bad.

Kerstin wrote: "So with both, pride and prejudice, we have counterbalances missing, humility to counter excess pride, and I would say prudence and restraint to counter prejudice."

I agree humility counters excess pride. But I'm not sure about prudence and restraint countering prejudice.

I think prejudice is based on ignorance. I see knowledge as countering prejudice because the more people know about the subject/the group, the greater their familiarity with it, the less likely they are to pre-judge or harbor a prejudicial opinion.

David wrote: "Mr. Collins seems to check all the boxes for the stock pompous clergyman character, yet I can't help but feel a little sorry for him, and I do not know why...."

(Laughing.) I quite agree! I haven't watched enough of the films of P&P to know if all scriptwriters treat him as a caricature -- but neither have I read P&P carefully enough to find the words to support that feeling of empathy for him. What person "in real life" would I match him with? Somehow that guy (gal?) who tries to be decent, but somehow emerges as somewhat clueless?

Tamara wrote: "I think prejudice is based on ignorance. I see knowledge as countering prejudice..."

As you well know, I've argued that argument, with devastating lack of success. And I just now emerged from another book discussion (view spoiler)[ The Vanishing Half (hide spoiler)] where we mentioned last night's NOVA special on Women in Stem, where mostly senior women scientists at a major Boston university spent months bringing (scientific) data to their case of systemic prejudicial treatment -- yet this morning's group expressed the view that much of prejudice is emotionally driven and not readily amenable to change based on data (factual information). (view spoiler)[Can we still ask, is there emotional knowledge that can counter prejudice and what would creating such look like? (hide spoiler)]

Anyway, back to the other wonderful characters in P&P. Of what does Mrs. Bennet's pride consist? (Running a fairly thrifty household, bearing and raising four ostensibly marriageable daughters, ....?) Mr. Bennet? (A quiet pride in his choice of wife, of his home, of his sometimes irascible daughters, that he has a particular unacknowledged fondness for those he considers "sensible"?....) And I encourage each to revise these musings and develop your own for each of the characters.

(And then if you participated in this board's recently completed read of Demons, try a least part of a little exercise to name the likely points of pride of each of its characters. I think of this as like trying to do similar for members of groups like Proud Boys or others that recently stormed the U.S. capitol. And then comparing against what "pride" looks like in P&P...)

Tamara wrote: "Is there such a thing as an excess of good judgment? I think of judgment as being either good or bad."

Exactly :-)

I think prejudice is based on ignorance. I see knowledge as countering prejudice because the more people know about the subject/the group, the greater their familiarity with it, the less likely they are to pre-judge or harbor a prejudicial opinion.

I think you are right. That's a better answer than mine.

Tamara wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "I’m having a little trouble here formulating an excess – what is the excess of good judgment?"

Is there such a thing as an excess of good judgment? I think of judgment as being eit..."

I would say that if you spend so long weighing the pros and cons of a situation that the ability to make the decision slips out of your fingers, that's an excess of good judgement. Charlotte warns Elizabeth that Jane is so restrained she may lose Bingley, for example.

Lily wrote: "David wrote: "Mr. Collins seems to check all the boxes for the stock pompous clergyman character, yet I can't help but feel a little sorry for him, and I do not know why...."

(Laughing.) I quite a..."

His father was quite a piece of work, so that gives you some understanding of why he is the way he is.

I read chapter 18 last night, and I was thinking about Caroline Bingley. In the modern adaptations of P&P I've read and watched, the Lady Catherine de Bourgh character is usually this awesome feminist icon, and all of her worst traits get passed on to the Caroline character, who is then doubly terrible. But in chapter 18, she does try to warn Elizabeth that Wickham is not what he seems. But Elizabeth, fully confirmed in her bias against Mr Darcy, reacts angrily and dismisses Caroline's warning as wilful ignorance.

Jen wrote: "I would say that if you spend so long weighing the pros and cons of a situation that the ability to make the decision slips out of your fingers, e..."

Jen -- love your "definition" (and example) of excess of good judgement! But not everyone would call such "good judgement." After awhile, our words can put us in circles....

(Consider speculating why Mr. Bennet waits to inform Mrs. Bennet of Mr. Collin's visit until the day of his arrival. Excess of good judgement?)

Prejudice (n.) are unfair or unreasonable opinions with results that are harmful in some degree. Ignorance certainly plays a major role, but so does misinformation prompting the question, what about prejudice as a verb?

1. to unfairly influence someone or something, so that an unreasonable opinion or decision is the result.
2. to have a harmful influence on something.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/d...

Have Wickham's comments influenced Elizabeth's opinion of Mr. Darcy? The motives of those who break the rules of civility by speaking ill of someone else in their absence should be suspect (see Washington's Rules of Civility No. 89). Why is Wickham breaking this rule? Can anyone else be suspected of manipulating opinions for some purpose?

Jen wrote: " In the modern adaptations of P&P I've read and watched, the Lady Catherine de Bourgh character is usually this awesome feminist icon,"

Really? Though I am not surprised.

In the first week we were introduced to two wealthy bachelors, Mr. Bingley and Mr. Darcy. They are now departed to London. Now the focus is on two newcomers, Mr. Collins and Mr. Wickham, men of of the gentry, but little personal wealth.
We haven't talked much about Mr. Wickham yet. To tie in with David's questions, what are your impressions of him? Is he trustworthy?

Lily wrote: "Tamara wrote: "I think prejudice is based on ignorance. I see knowledge as countering prejudice..."

As you well know, I've argued that argument, with devastating lack of success. And I just now em..."

The emotional knowledge that may contribute to counter prejudice may be something akin to what we call 'empathy'. I've been reading this book called 'Jane on the Brain' and the author says that 'true empathy includes both emotional resonance, the pure feeling part, and theory of mind, which inccludes your awareness that you're grasping someone' s thoughts and emotions." It is also noted that shared experience makes empathy more likely, and that it's easier to empathize with people who are similiar to us (which has the negative side-effect of having less empathy or compassion to people of different race, class or culture (the root of prejudice). They say that one of the main role of literature is to enlarge that capacity of human empathy by virtually entering and understanding from different perspectives.

We all have a powerful need to have our inner feelings be recognized by others as well as a power to recognize what others feel but are bound to be selective in wielding that power. This reminded me of Mary and Mr. Collins' somewhat comic yet desperate display to 'be recognized' and the people's constant ignoring of their futile and often backfiring attempts.

This overt display of the wish to be recognized is also shown in Mrs. Bennet and Elizabeth is very embarrassed and tries to shush her mother, especially under Darcy's stern regard. Mrs. Bennet's constant bragging about her daughter's prospects and Elizabeth's embarrassment of her family both seems to be connected with other people's regard to themselves. With Mary's distinction of vanity and pride, would Mrs Bennet and Elizabeth's attitude both qualify as vanity rather than pride?

I also noticed how the word 'modesty' and 'humility' is often used in a very ironic and tongue-in-cheek manner, such as when Darcy and Bingley argues over the 'deceitful' 'appearance of humility' which 'is often only carelessness of opinion and sometiimes an indirect boast' or when Collins often refers to the 'female modesty' when in denial of Elizabeth's refusal and has to have the fact nailed in by her father to stop misinterpreting it as some kind of coquetry or affectation. In chapter 15, Collins is described as 'a mixture of pride and obsequiousness, self-importance and humility' and when he introduces himself to Darcy at the ball, he says that he considers 'the clerical office as equal in point of dignity with the highest rank in the kingdom - provided that a proper humility of behaviour is at the same time maintained.'

"Affectations and appearance" of humility is deemed as proper outward 'manners' but true humility is so hard to find.

Elizabeth's prejudging attitude towards Mr. Wickham's innocence and Mr. Darcy's pride seems to be somewhat self-preserving and protective. She says it's fine for him to be proud as long as SHE is not mollified (after he says that she was just 'barely tolerable'.)
She also pushes aside Darcy and Miss Bingley and Jane's account of Wickham as she is already very attracted to Wickham. Prejudice of many people seems to serve as a self-protective mechanism of rigid thought and even with new information doesn't easily modify itself as long as it serves the self-protective purpose.

I read chapters 19 and 20 last night, and this time I'm thinking about Mrs Bennet's response to Elizabeth's refusal to marry Mr Collins.

But I tell you what, Miss Lizzy -- if you take it into your head to go on refusing every offer of marriage in this way, you will never get a husband at all -- and I am sure I do not know who is to maintain you when your father is dead.

And I'm picturing their lives when their incomes are cut by 90%. If Mrs Bennet can't get one of her daughters to marry Mr Collins, she'll have to live with one of her siblings, who presumably have children of their own and not enough room or income for 5 spinsters. Presumably they'll end up like the Bates in Emma, crowded into tiny rooms, no new clothes, at the mercy of their friends for everything. Part of their income would also have to go towards paying servants, since it's both a sign of being in the gentry, and since they can't even cook.

Borum wrote: "Prejudice of many people seems to serve as a self-protective mechanism of rigid thought and even with new information doesn't easily modify itself as long as it serves the self-protective purpose..."

I think that is very true.

Elizabeth was hurt by Darcy's assessment that she is "tolerable but not handsome enough to tempt me." Her pride was wounded. She disguises her hurt by telling her friends and dismissing his comment as if she didn't care.

She told the story however with great spirit among her friends; for she had a lively, playful disposition, which delighted in anything ridiculous.

The eagerness with which she seeks and embraces all the negatives about Darcy that Wickham tells her, as well as her rejection of Caroline Bingley's advice, is because she wants to reinforce the negative judgment she has formed about Darcy: Darcy is such a horrible human being that I really shouldn't care what he thinks about me.

As you said in your post, it is self-protection.

The relationship between the narrator and Elizabeth is worth exploring. The narrator describes Elizabeth as having "a lively, playful disposition, which delighted in anything ridiculous." Is that how she sees Elizabeth? Does she agree with Elizabeth that Darcy's comment is "ridiculous"? Or does she see through Elizabeth's bravado and is being ironic? Is she setting Elizabeth up for a fall?

Susanna wrote: "BTW, reminiscent of our Demons discussion, who is the narrator?.."

Since it's not a first person narrator as in Demons, the narrator is the implied author.

I'm trying to figure out if the implied author sees Elizabeth as Elizabeth sees herself or if the implied author is maintaining distance and setting Elizabeth up for a rude awakening. I suspect it is the latter because the implied author has already shown us Elizabeth can be wrong in her assessment of people. For example, Elizabeth tells Charlotte her views on marriage are not sound and that she would never act according to her professed views. Charlotte proves her wrong.

I think the narrator is showing Elizabeth as having both pride and prejudice, and she plans to bring her down a peg or two.

Card games mentioned:

After the arrival at Longbourn Mr. Collins speaks of Lady Catherine and how he is invited now and then in a game of Quadrille. Quadrille is a trick-taking game similar to Whist and Bridge for 4 players with 40 cards.
“This classic game…was devised in early eighteenth century as a four-handed version of Hombre, and remained popular for over a hundred years in France and England… Modern taste will revolt against its irregular ranking of cards (an ancient inheritance), its excessively complicated pay-off schedule, and its total lack of standardization.”*

Then later, he is guest at the Philips’s, and he seems to have no knowledge of Whist.

”"I know little of the game at present," said he, "but I shall be glad to improve myself, for in my situation in life—" Mrs. Phillips was very glad for his compliance, but could not wait for his reason.”

I must admit, I burst out laughing when I read this. An eight-year-old can play Whist! It is a simple trick-taking game, and the winner is determined by the number of tricks won. That’s the basic premise. You usually have 4 players in two teams and a regular 52 card deck. According to my trusty guide, “The most prestigious card game of the Western world between about 1750 and 1900, when it was relegated to Bridge … Starting as an ‘alehouse game’ with several complications but little strategic depth…” *

What does this tell us about dear Mr. Collins? In a time and place when everyone played cards for entertainment and had a good repertoire of individual games, he doesn’t know simple, ubiquitous Whist. Yet, he happily engages in over-complicated Quadrille.

Lottery Tickets
Now with this card game I could only find sketchy details. It is a simple gambling game, and fish (= chips) are used. I did find a website that pictures these fish.
https://pemberley.com/?kbe_knowledgeb...

*A Dictionary of Card Games