The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Verena has been tempted by two good marriage proposals from men she likes. Do you think she would have been better off accepting one of them, or staying with Olive?

What is your impression of Basil’s life in New York?

What did you think of Basil’s visit to Mrs. Luna?

What was Basil’s manner toward Miss Birdseye?

What are Basil’s and Verena’s feelings regarding each other at present?

It seems like Basil would have been a supporter of the new organization in the South for the preservation of tradition and the protection of women - the Ku Klux Klan!

Basil seems rather naive in the way he was taken advantage of by his Yankee partner. I wonder if there are other Southerners in the area who would like the idea of using him as a lawyer. He is probably correct that many New Yorkers would find his accent off-putting.

Basil seems to be condescending to everyone. Miss Birdseye is a has-been piece of fluff. Mrs. Luna is an unsuccessful temptress. Verena is beautiful, but much like Olive, he isn't really interested in her as a whole person.

It seems Verena has something like a photographic memory. James mentions how quickly she picks up learning from reading. That would also explain how she can come out with pages of prose in her speaking. They could be texts, or combinations of texts, she has read.

Verena’s gift seems to be something like speaking in tongues. From what I’ve seen of that phenomenon, it appears to be, as you say Robin, a trick (conscious or otherwise) of verbalizing memory in snatches and fragments. The little bit she produces when Basil visits seems to fit that pattern. I can see now better why she was drawn to Olive. At her age, an accretive brain like that is always starving for new material, always on fire with the idea that if it can only get its hands on the right data, all wisdom will unfold before it.

Basil, for all his apparent knowingness, certainly deludes himself about other people. He totally misses what Miss Birdseye says at the end of their conversation, when she points out that he only escorted her because he wanted Verena’s address! She’s onto him but he thinks he has successfully manipulated the “old dear”. So far, she’s my favorite character.

The scene with Mrs. Luna made my skin crawl. She was ponderously kittenish, he was evaluating how useful she might or might not be to him. A household involving the two of them plus that imp of Satan Newton would be a nightmare!

I am being quite annoyed by James as a narrator. One might say he’s behaving toward the reader like a cross between Mrs. Luna and Basil. His coy little “stuff has happened but I’m only going to tell you what I think you need to know” routine puts me off. I feel he’s manipulating me in an intellectually dishonest way.

Basil and Verena seem mutually attracted, which can only be disastrous. The touchstone of Verena’s character seems to be complaisance, but with Basil she goes a step further. Her dim sense that she’s taking a bold step by inviting him to walk seems spot-on.

I am struck by how much more freedom women had in America than in Britain at this time. Nobody seems at all fazed by marriageable women meeting various men alone, or by traveling around without a duenna.

The 6 chapters in this section were way more interesting - almost page-turning - than the last section. Basil is just a more interesting character and the dialogue in his interactions with other characters has a dynamic lacking in the Olive sections. I enjoyed his interactions with Mrs. Luna and while I understand Abigail's reaction, it had me smiling. I agree that Miss Birdseye, although a has-been, is the most likeable character and I enjoyed their exchange too.

While Basil may have some repulsive beliefs, the playful tone in his manipulative banter is not only interesting in itself but forebodes much future conflict which = excitement to me. Basil may be a wolf in sheep's clothing but his presence provides the spark for the story.

Does anyone remember how old Newton is, if we were told?

As a literature major, I have read plenty of long and dense tomes, but it still bothers me when there are whole pages with no paragraph changes. I experience a kind of internal sigh every time I see that! Maybe that is just the Gutenberg edition? Or just how much time James spends depicting his characters' thoughts?

Robin P wrote: "It seems like Basil would have been a supporter of the new organization in the South for the preservation of tradition and the protection of women - the Ku Klux Klan!"

Pretty much, yeah. I can think of a few spaces he'd fit in these days as well.

Robin, that kind of annoys me about James as well. It's hard to find a stopping place without paragraph breaks, especially if there are things going on around that distract one periodically. I had a library book and it was the same.

Last section I mentioned that the story had contained "no talk of mass rallies and marches?" on the feminist movement. There was talk of mass rallies during this section. At least I understood the references were to larger rallies rather than parlor meetings.

Robin P wrote: "Does anyone remember how old Newton is, if we were told?."

I couldn't tell either. Eventually, I chose to picture him at about 10. But he could also be about 6 or starting to grow a mustache. Sometimes Wikipedia explains characters but I didn't check it since sometimes you get a description with a spoiler like "he's the 8 year old son of Mrs. So and So and dies in a tragic accident." Actually, in this case, that might be a happy ending.

Newton seems to be a plot point, not a real character, at least so far.

I also found this week's reading more compelling than last week's. The portrait of Miss Birdseye's decline, in chapter 20, is moving; and her later conversation with Basil is entertaining. I'm not sure about his attitude toward her. He wants something and she understands this perfectly. He directs chivalric behavior toward all women categorically, and in this context it's definitely weird. But at the same time, Miss Birdseye is old and on some level I thought it was nice to have this young man, just for once, there to ride along on the bus with her. His motivation is self-serving and the political views driving his chivalric behavior are unfortunate, but at the same time I find the scene a little bit sweet. Possibly this is due to the mildness and generosity of Miss Birdseye's reaction to him.

With regard to his political views, I feel like James doesn't take these any more seriously than he takes Olive's cause, or Tarrant's mesmeric healing. They are treated as comic in that they lead Basil nowhere, make his writing unpublishable, and drive him to make a fool of himself, at times, in social situations. While the views are about as bad as views can be, they are only one part of the character James presents. Basil is more human, and more complex, than his political orientation; so for me at least it's possible to continue to enjoy the character, despite the politics.

Actually in this section I feel like James brings Olive's passion to life as he hasn't before. Despite some questionable moves on Olive's part--for example, using cash to rent Verena from her parents--his description of the two women's life together in the wintertime is beautiful. And the feeling of being carried away, totally impassioned, desiring to lose oneself completely in the service of something greater than oneself--I could definitely feel the appeal of this. It reminded me of being twenty!

Without reading everyone's comments, both last week and this week, I don't think I would have noticed what a puzzle Verena is. She's not so believable as a character, is she? How can her innocence be real, given her family history? If it is real--is it somehow related to her unusual speaking ability? Has she developed in some neurologically atypical way? Launching into speech mode while speaking directly to just one person (Basil) in this last chapter is odd. But, at the same time, she certainly seems to enjoy social interaction. If she has developed atypically, the differences from others do not seem to trouble her in any way. I don't know. I really can't figure her out. Maybe she's just very young, easily influenced, and unaware of what she wants in life. Maybe she's taking financial advantage of her friend. Maybe she's not doing anything at all--just going with the flow!

It seems like Verena is a person who would enjoy having a family, and I don't think Olive was wise in trying to take that option away from her. Yes, Verena is overly trusting and very young, and yes, she probably needed a warning to make sure she didn't rush into marriage, but that's it. Mrs. Farrinder certainly doesn't seem to be hindered by her husband, and there's no reason to believe Mr. Burrage would hinder Verena from continuing with the movement if that's what she wanted (neither would Matthias Pardon, but Mr. Burrage seems to be the more appealing suitor).

I agree that this was unfortunate—not a nice thing for Olive to do. But Verena also gave up so easily. You’d think she’d fight a little harder, since she obviously likes Mr. Burrage. But maybe she doesn’t like him (or anyone else) enough. Maybe she goes along with Olive because she isn’t actually ready to get married yet.

I've no idea how Burrage will develop in the latter half of the book but his pastime for collecting objets d'art and idling away his time at Harvard Law School sets off all my alarm bells. And it is hard to imagine Mrs Burrage accepting the Tarrants as her son's father and mother in-law.

Also been wondering how James's original readers would have felt about Basil's marrying Mrs Luna in his current financial circumstances. He could have let her inheritance from her late husband support the menage, whilst continuing to pursue his literary ambitions and perhaps mostly for appearances sake maintained his law practice. Might even have engaged in politics (as a Democrat of course) - not as a candidate but as a publicist and journalist.

Would that have been regarded as a socially and morally respectable career then? I think it would, but perhaps I'm judging by English standards concerning what was expected of a gentleman. And in America, Boston and New York respectable opinions might have differed.

Lori wrote: "Verena has been tempted by two good marriage proposals from men she likes. Do you think she would have been better off accepting one of them, or staying with Olive?

What is your impression of Basi..."

Olive has effectively bought Verena, or set up a yearly rental. In principle, how is this different from buying a slave to work in the cotton plantations down south? She abhors her cousin and his southern family yet she has ensnared a young girl for her own purposes whatever they may be. Verena might be compliant, but so are all the young people who fall victim to modern slavery....at first.

‘ The fine web of authority, of dependence, that her strenuous companion had woven about her, was now as dense as a suit of golden mail;’

Verena could have married either of the two men who had asked her, but at the moment she likes what Verena is offering more than what they could offer.

Basil’s life in New York is one of disillusionment with the author’s fine description of his surroundings echoing this. Possibly his southern background has hindered his career progress but it seems that his heart is not really in it. I hadn’t realised how poor he was until this section and how much of a fall he had experienced due to the defeat in the Civil War. Marrying Mrs. Luna would be another acceptance of defeat but his semi-serious contemplation of it showed what dire straits he was in. The two are totally incompatible and the marriage would only serve each other’s selfish needs.

Basil’s idea of a visit to Boston to see Verena seemed to be a last attempt to rekindle the dying embers of his ambition.

I thought that Basil was honest in the way he dealt with Mrs. Birdseye. He showed her that southern courtesy as he would all women but he was also very direct in telling her he wanted to see Verena and not Olive. He also came away liking and respecting Mrs. Birdseye, probably because she demonstrated that she had actually done something positive with her life.

When he got to Cambridge Basil didn’t hold back in his praise of Verena, something that she would have heard many times before. However, her reaction to Basil seemed different to the ‘hundreds’ of other men who have visited her. I don’t think it is just the fact that Basil is Olive’s cousin. He might be the ‘enemy’ but Verena’s usual unflustered demeanour seems to have been agitated by him. I would hope that both Basil’s and Verena’s opinions could be tempered by their mutual relationship, with Basil rejecting his condescending and demeaning view of women and Verena rejecting the need for vengeance on all men.

Is Henry James setting up some sort of ‘tug-of-love’ battle between Olive and Basil?

Trev wrote: "Olive has effectively bought Verena, or set up a yearly rental. In principle, how is this different from buying a slave to work in the cotton plantations down south?."

In the old days teenaged children were usually boarded out and often there was a fee involved; in the case of boys for apprenticeships, girls as ladies' companions or to learn household mangagement. And as I remarked before, Selah Tarrant probably believes he is temporarily resigning his right to the receipts for Verena's speaking engagements, rather like the parent today of a young actor or singer. Of course the assumption is that the relationship will be mutually beneficial. Olive gains an agreeable travel companion and protege whilst Verena completes her formation and is introduced to polite society.

I think it’s different because it’s her parents’ rights that have been bought off, not her own. Verena appears to still be free: influenced yes, manipulated yes, but not coerced.

Examples of Olive’s ‘benevolent’ attitude towards Verena.

‘ She withheld this incident from the girl’s knowledge, reflecting with some solemnity that it was the first deception (for Olive her silence was a deception) that she had yet practised on her friend, and wondering whether she should have to practise others in the future. She then and there made up her mind that she would not shrink from others should they be necessary.’

...and in respect of Verena going to live with Olive.

’ There was no struggle about this, for the simple reason that by the time the question came to the front Verena was completely under the charm.

Both these coercive strategies are used today by those involved in modern slavery. Verena believes she has chosen for herself but the reality is different. She dismisses any idea of impropriety regarding the money exchange because she is completely under Olive’s spell. Even Olive uses the term ‘buy him off each year,’ showing exactly how she perceives the arrangement. Verena’s mother is obviously not happy about it (even though the money is welcome), manifested by her frequent illnesses which draw her daughter back to the Cambridge house.

The question is the effect of the mental bondage that Verena will have suffered during her time with Olive if or when she realises that she wants to break free.

It seems like brainwashing or gaslighting. Olive is forcing Verena to see only the reality she wants her to see. And Olive has zero sense of humor or tolerance for uncertainty. She is absolutely sure about things.

But Verena doesn't seem that weak to me. I foresee a clash eventually.

James seems to despise all the "do-gooders" except maybe Mrs. Birdseye, whose time has past. But he doesn't like the socialite Mrs. Luna either.

I wonder if one reason I find myself more sympathetic to Olive than do some others of us is that she so reminds me of a few of my colleagues in the days when I taught English at a university, with similar monomanical fixation on favoured topics and attachment to student acolytes. Also recall the first chapter where Mrs Luna says that Olive will appear in exactly ten minutes. I wonder if today we would find Olive 'on the spectrum'? Excellent principles but no common sense or sense of proportion and of course she wouldn't be aware that Verena would desire beaux. Imagine serving on a committe with Olive.

Bill wrote: "I wonder if one reason I find myself more sympathetic to Olive than do some others of us is that she so reminds me of a few of my colleagues in the days when I taught English at a university, with ..."

I'm a bit sympathetic to her too, though I recognize her huge flaws. I like her more than most of the other characters. I won't trivialize slavery by saying that's what she's doing (which I don't think it's anything close), but she's definitely used a form of emotional manipulation on Verena.

By the way, is anyone else having trouble with Goodreads' notifications? They've been "off" for me for a week or two. I get them like a day later, if at all. So if I'm not responding to things I should be responding to, that's why.

I think you are right about Olive, that she doesn't really perceive, or care, what others think of her. This could be a strong point, when it leads someone to devote themselves to a social cause, but also a flaw when it makes the person so sure of their rightness that they steamroller over everyone else.

And Lori, yes, I have had others in various groups report problems with GR notifications. I don't use them myself because I am in so many active groups that I would be getting constant notifications!

Lori, my notifications have been off for the past week too, like yours they are coming much later than what it says on the notificiation. It certainly does affect response times. I am also not receiving my daily collection of posts.

Bill wrote: "I wonder if one reason I find myself more sympathetic to Olive than do some others of us is that she so reminds me of a few of my colleagues in the days when I taught English at a university, with similar monomanical fixation on favoured topics and attachment to student acolytes. . . . I wonder if today we would find Olive 'on the spectrum'? Excellent principles but no common sense or sense of proportion and of course she wouldn't be aware that Verena would desire beaux. "

Funny, I wondered something like this earlier about Verena but in regards to Olive it actually makes sense. My dad was like this, with certain incredibly narrow topics of lifelong interest/obsession, and little regard for anything else. When I became a teenager and demonstrated interest in socializing outside the home with peers (as bringing them into the home was unthinkable) he reacted with genuine bafflement, zero tolerance, and no sign of understanding or empathy. Olive may truly not understand why Verena finds social interaction rewarding.

Olive is a capable manager though. She lives independently and appears to manage money, household affairs, and even travel without difficulty. Practical matters like these were a challenge for my dad, and I don't think he could have lived on his own, let alone planned and participated in overseas travel.

Lori wrote: "Bill wrote: "I wonder if one reason I find myself more sympathetic to Olive than do some others of us is that she so reminds me of a few of my colleagues in the days when I taught English at a univ..."

I don’t think it is trivialising slavery (something I would never think of doing) by comparing the principles of physical bondage with the type of mental coercion that Olive practices. James has already described Olive as having wound a web of authority.......as dense as a suit of golden mail around Verena. That is an explicit description of bondage as far as I am concerned.

Olive has gone further than an over zealous university professor obsessed with a potentially stellar student might go, by buying off her parents. Her actions, if they came to light in such an institution, would most certainly end in her dismissal.

Also, the fact she is using her wealth to claim Verena is in itself an abuse. It is Olive’s money that has allowed her to get control of the young girl, surround her with fine things and fine living and transport her to the marvels of Europe. No wonder Verena’s head has been turned.

I have considered if Olive deserves any sympathy for her endeavours and how morally aware she is of of her actions. But if she is willing to deceive Verena as and when necessary and at the same time is calculating the effect of every action she takes to preserve their relationship, it seems that she knows fully what she is doing and doesn’t care if it is morally wrong.

However, as the two women are so different in both personality and temperament, I agree with Robin that Verena will probably find the strength to break free, in one way or another, hopefully sooner rather than later.

I have just finished the section and am amazed by all of your comments. It has been a while that I participated in a read with such engagements. There does not seem to be much to add. 😊

When Olive bought off Verena’s parents, I was reminded of incidences when parents try to pay off the unacceptable lovers of their children to stay away. To me this seemed very cruel and grim. If it was meant as compensation for not earning a living in the meantime, James should have called it as such an allowance, but Olive literally speaks of buying them off.

I have the same issues with James’s writing style. I am reading an Everyman’s Library edition and have sometimes 2 pages without a paragraph. I do not mind long sentences and such, but just looking at the pages makes one a little dizzy.
Interesting in his writing is the constant narrative of dialogues without actually having one. By this he can hop over events, come back to them at a later point or refer to them already upfront. It can become confusing and a little irritating as we never seem to hear the whole story. I wonder whether we will learn anything about the trip to Europe, and as discussed in an earlier threat, anything about the content of Verena’s speeches. We only get the reactions, feelings, surroundings, but never an actual speech.

The comparisons to slavery in this thread strike me as apt in the following sense: most of the active feminists during the second half of the nineteenth century came out of the abolitionist movement; in fact, that’s where they developed their taste for activism. They were fond themselves of making comparisons between the situation of women of all classes and that of slaves. In Middlemarch, George Eliot famously says, “Obligation may be stretched till it is no better than a brand of slavery stamped on us when we were too young to know its meaning.” Even as early as the Regency, I would argue, Jane Austen was making such a point in the way she conceived Mansfield Park. So the comparison was very much in the air.

Add me to the list of people who are constantly getting knocked off threads and failing to receive notifications from Goodreads! I have complained and they claim they’re working on it, but I don’t really believe it because for me at least, the problem began right at the beginning of the year, which feels like a corporate decision.

After a few weeks of not receiving my usual daily updates of the new posts in each of my Goodreads groups, in the past 2 days I have received at least 14 of them, containing posts from earlier in April. I presume Goodreads is just finally releasing all the daily updates it hadn't sent out before.