Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Boccaccio, The Decameron
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Day Two
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That was quite the odd little song at the end of Day 1. I’m not sure what to make of it at this point. Which story I liked best? Perhaps, the last story about the old man with his young wife, because it reminded me of an old folk song, “Maids When You’re Young Never Wed an Old Man”. The story is offered as a counterpoint to Bernabo’s story (Story Nine) and has Dioneo using his privilege of picking his own theme. And yet, the story ends well for the wife and the pirate, if not the husband so perhaps it is not that thematically different.
My question is what happened to the deer in Madonna Beritola’s story. They seem to just disappear at one point and we never learn what happened to them (unless I missed something)
Boccaccio gives a bit of realism: the day two stories are longer and more elaborate than those from the first day. This what could be expected, since day one was a kind of improvisation, and for the second day they had time to prepare. But it does not necessary mean the stories are better. As for the deer, I am confused, too.
Neifile begins her story,. . .it often happens that those who try to make fools of others, and especially in matters worthy of reverence, wind up not only being made fools of themselves, but sometimes come to harm as well.LIke the first story from day 1, this story involves making light of public, or local veneration but in the second case, Martellino, the one making light of the situation, is tortured and made a fool of himself. Is Neifile trying to chide Panfilo for his making fun of local veneration in his first story?
I was struck by Pamphilo's story, #7. This story of the debauched virgin Alatiel seems to break new ground in salaciousness. The previous amorous women have been either widows or properly betrothed to their lovers. Alatiel is a Saracen, perhaps making the story more palatable for a medieval Christian audience. She goes through many perils and laments her fate several times, but at other times she appreciates the advantages of her situation. She passes from man to man, but eventually ends up with her originally intended royal husband, none the worse for wear. The ladies sigh, perhaps in pity but perhaps a little wistful at this new picture of liberated happiness that Pamphilo has given them. But none of them seem to take the hint.
I agree with David and Roger that the stories seem to be used to contest the "moral" of the stories told before. In fact, I thought Fiammetta's story (1.05, frisky king got told off with hens) told immediately after Dioneo's (1.04 frisky monk and abbot share a girl who does not have anything to say and just cries when in troubles) seemed so obviously like a "countermeasure" or "corrective", I suspect Dioneo’s demand to be given the privilege to tell his story last, and on any topic, is meant to "game" the system and make sure his subversive message won't get nullified or overshadowed again. IF that is the case, that seems to imply Dioneo also understood Fiammetta’s story as crafted to counter his.
On top of Neifile’s “counter story” of a false canonization getting caught and punished, Elissa’s falsely accused Count also got restored because of a truthful death bed confession (as opposed to Ser Cepparello’s counterintuitive choice to lie even as he’s dying). Intuitively, thesis and antithesis seem to be brewing, despite what Pampinea said about games as the queen of Day 1:
we should not spend the hot part of the day playing games, for they necessarily leave one of the players feeling miffed, without giving that much pleasure either to his opponent or to those who are watching. Rather, we should tell stories, for even though just one person is doing the talking, all the others will still have the pleasure of listening
She’s really trying to impose a quarrel-free utopia here, but the boys seem to have their minds set on leading the ladies astray, starting with Dioneo’s, which obviously offended the ladies, but he cleverly uses his privilege on day 2 to channel or conclude a full day of (mostly) travel tales by saying the judge’s wife, who found herself in an oppressed, entrapped, hopeless situation not of her choosing (her parents chose it), got kidnapped (another helpless situation outside her agency), transported to somewhere else outside the judge’s social world, and cleverly takes advantage of that and make a choice that works out better for herself. It’s almost like Dioneo is saying now that we’ve travelled and escaped the city, we don’t have to worry about those rules and social mores. Panfilo’s Alatiel keeping her “virginity” reputation is another version of that — when in Vegas … it doesn’t count! Ladies, let your guards down while we’re on vacation… nobody will know!
Recall Pampinea urged the ladies to leave the city in order not to become morally corrupt like those who remained in the city, when Dioneo told his first sexually explicit tale, all the ladies immediately, vocally, explicitly objected, and Fiammetta seemed to have rebuked him with her tale which left the king humiliated and chastened by the lady’s wits. For the rest of the day, they went back to telling non-sexual tales. On Day 2, some of the early tales have sexual misadventure as part of the stories, but they tend to be caution tales (2.05 Andreuccio tricked by a prostitute and learned his lesson, 2.06 frisky young lovers thrown into prison and nearly killed until they’re saved by recognition…)
But Panfilo (2.07) told another salacious tale, this time the ladies laughed and sighed, without rebuking him. Have they normalized this? Is the floodgate open now?
Of course, all that is happening in an Edenic setting…
It also makes the subtitle of this book interesting: "the book called Decameron, also known as Prince Galeotto" (Galeotto as in the book that tricked Paolo and Francesca into consummating their relationship in Dante's Inferno.) Is this book trying to trick readers into doing something?
Susan wrote: "My question is what happened to the deer in Madonna Beritola’s story. They seem to just disappear at one point and we never learn what happened to them (unless I missed something) ."Beritola returns to her human family and the deer drop away. Maybe this is meant symbolically? The examples I can think of from classical literature are humans being suckled by animals, not the other way around. Romulus and Remus, for example. Maybe caring for animals in this way might be seen as a reversal of the natural order?
Thomas wrote: "Beritola returns to her human family and the deer drop away. Maybe this is meant symbolically? The examples I can think of from classical literature ..."No suckling involved, but another classical source with very similar setup is Ovid's Queen Hecuba losing her status and her children, thus exiting the human and transforming into a beast:
The Trojan women shrieked, but Hecuba
Made never a sound; like a hard rock, she stood there,
Looked at the ground, or turned her face to Heaven,
Looked at her son, who lay there dead, and studied
His wounds, his wounds, and in that study armored
Herself, equipped her passion. In that rage
She towered, a queen again, whose whole employment
Spelled out the images of fitting vengeance.
As, when her suckling cub is stolen from her,
A lioness goes raging, tracking down
The unseen enemy, so Hecuba,
In grief and anger, with her years forgotten,
Her aim remembered, went to Polymestor,
The murderer, and sought an audience with him.
(Well, I misremembered. Apparently Ovid made her a lion-queen again)
Except Queen Hecuba morphed into a Lioness and will not return to her human form (unlike Io, for example,) whereas our Beritola will one day abandon her exile from humanity and retrieve her title, her children, and her human form.
I feel like this "temporary exile from human form" is also repeated (Alatiel becoming speechless as she is passed around by barbarians is a kind of dehumanization too. Bernabo's wife ditched her gender and became a man in order to survive but eventually retrieves her gender and status in her old community. And the count turned beggar gets restored ... and ... a few more later.) So I agree the point of the deer seems symbolic of her metamorphosis, which can safely be ditched once she is restored.
I found the 9th story to sound the most modern to my ears. It reminded me a little bit of Disney’s Milan with a bit of The Count of Monte Christo thrown in. I was a bit surprised that Modonna Zinevera would go back to her husband but the author was a male and is writing for a male audience.One thing that is really interesting is to see how much Fortuna is talked about. I find that today we much rather talk about someone being “self made”. While in some contexts it is an insult to call someone “lucky“.
Mike wrote: "I was a bit surprised that Modonna Zinevera would go back to her husband but the author was a male and is writing for a male audience...."Me too, so much so that I read Dioneo's story (the one after Zinevera's) as parody of Filomena's, and the kidnapped wife's rebuke as a more satisfying ending than Zinevera's unimaginable magnanimity. (Of course, Zinevera kicks ass and freely chose forgiveness from a position of power, whereas the pirate hostage has to choose between two positions of being subjugated, subordinated to men.)
BTW, Boccaccio (on the surface) insists the Decameron is written for lovesick women with too much time on their hands and no outlet, and it's not for men with more important things to do. Though some people argue it's a trick and it's really actually written for men: https://www.purplemotes.net/2014/03/3...
(He did write in the vernacular and not latin, which supposedly made it accessible to female readers.)
I think Boccaccio wrote as much for women as for men, maybe more. A collection of amusing stories, many of them amorous, is just the sort of thing ladies of leisure would go for.
Lia wrote: "It also makes the subtitle of this book interesting: "the book called Decameron, also known as Prince Galeotto" (Galeotto as in the book that tricked Paolo and Francesca into consummating their rel..."I'm not sure yet what the subtitle means. When I think of romantic literature as a catalyst for action I think of Madame Bovary and Don Quixote, but the storytellers here don't seems to be spurred to any kind of action in that way. To the contrary, they appear to be perfectly civil and sane, and their storytelling is part of the order they have imposed on themselves as an antidote to the chaos in the city. Maybe the stories are a kind of outlet or catharsis for them, rather than a model. There's no hint that any of the brigata would act like the characters in their stories, so I'm not sure why Boccaccio would think his book as a whole might make his readers act like Paolo and Francesca upon reading the Galehaut.
Mike wrote: "I found the 9th story to sound the most modern to my ears. It reminded me a little bit of Disney’s Milan with a bit of The Count of Monte Christo thrown in. I was a bit surprised that Modonna Zinev..."This story also reminded me of Mozart's Cosi Fan Tutte. ("So do they all" or "All Women do it".)
Susan wrote: "That was quite the odd little song at the end of Day 1. I’m not sure what to make of it at this point..."I was also provoked by the odd little song after the first book. I have a personal, private interpretation of it, I think it means something in specific (and some thing in relation to the stories coming up). :-)
Lia wrote: "It also makes the subtitle of this book interesting: "the book called Decameron, also known as Prince Galeotto" Is this book trying to trick readers into doing something? ..."
Or are they just fantasies? I do think Boccaccio is trying to play tricks on us. To me it looks like he is dedicating the book to women, but using the emphasis of female sexuality to make it more tempting to male readers. There are several ambiguous angles (female/male) throughout, the women laughing, sighing, yes, and all in an Edenic setting…
More on our dialogue about Filomena's claim that "God and Truth will take up arms on my behalf." Her story on Day 2 seems to dramatize that“Oh, for the love of God, have mercy!” [“Mercé per Dio!] replied the lady, in tears. “Don’t murder a person who has never wronged you just for the sake of carrying out somebody’s orders. God, who knows everything, knows that I never did anything to merit such treatment from my husband."
The really jarring thing for me is that “God” in Italian is “Dio”, and Dioneo is coming up next, and he has no mercy!
Lovely ladies, there was one part of the Queen’s story that has led me to change my mind and substitute a different tale for the one I had thought to tell. And that is the part about the stupidity of Bernabò and of all those other men who believe the same thing that he apparently did, namely, that when they go about the world, enjoying themselves with one woman here and another there, they imagine that the wives they left at home are just sitting on their hands. Albeit things turned out well enough for Bernabò, we, who are born and grow up and live our lives surrounded by women, know what it is they really hanker for. By telling this story, I will show you just how foolish such men are, and at the same time, I will reveal the even greater folly of those who not only think they are stronger than Nature and convince themselves by means of specious arguments that they can do the impossible, but actually work directly against Nature by striving to get others to be just like them.
Well, actually, he is merciful in his own way, he grants his sexually-preoccupied heroine a happy ending by giving her a (surprisingly honorable, gentlemanly) pirate. But still, Dioneo (New God?) takes up arms for the other team and dramatically rejects the plausibility or possibility of Filomena's claims of "truth" or "virtue."
Charlotte wrote: "Or are they just fantasies? ..."
Could be. The place they are staying seems a little too nice to be real, and it just so happens to be vacant while the world is falling apart. There's this sinister little comment Boccaccio made about this Edenic place:
Surrounded by meadows and marvelous gardens, the palace had wells of the coolest water and vaulted cellars stocked with precious wines, wines more suitable for connoisseurs than for honest, sober ladies.
One thing I kept being reminded of is Plato. Like Plato's symposium on love ... but without the wine! Or like Plato's admonition for poets to get out of the city, because poets lie, poets are three times removed from what is real, poets are great, but just not in his city.
Maybe, what happens in Eden stays in Eden, when in Rome, do as the Romans do. When not in the city ...
Thomas wrote: "the storytellers here don't seems to be spurred to any kind of action in that way. To the contrary, they appear to be perfectly civil and sane, and their storytelling is part of the order they have imposed on themselves as an antidote to the chaos in the city. Maybe the stories are a kind of outlet or catharsis for them, rather than a model. There's no hint that any of the brigata would act like the characters in their stories, s..."That's my immediate reaction when I first started thinking about that weird little subtitle, but then I immediately got very uncomfortable with the very first story on the very first day, (and some other stories mocking the gullible...)
Are we letting the poet's artifice fool us? (Imagine Dio blowing raspberry in the background)
Lia wrote: "The really jarring thing for me is that “God” in Italian is “Dio”, and Dioneo is coming up next, and he has no mercy!."Rebhorn suggests that Dioneo is derived from Dione, the mother of Aphrodite (by Zeus). That seems to fit the erotic character of Dioneo's stories so far.
I can see the comparison to the Symposium as well, but the Symposium always makes me think of Diotima's ladder. Ultimately the erotic for Plato leads to the divine. I don't see that happening in these stories -- rather than natural sensuality leading to the divine, the two seem to be pitted against each other. 'God and Truth" versus "Nature and Fortune," with Nature and Truth clearly in the lead at this point.
Thomas wrote: "Rebhorn suggests that Dioneo is derived from Dione, the mother of Aphrodite (by Zeus). That seems to fit the erotic character of Dioneo's stories so far." I’ve read Rebhorn’s notes on the characters naming as well. But I don’t think that takes away from the apparent word play: Filomena repeatedly cries Dio this, Dio that, both in the proem and in her story … and then someone called “Dioneo” pointedly negates everything she claims, even if Dioneo is homage to Dione, that still doesn’t take the pun away. (Everybody also laughed, maybe the wife’s rebuke itself is funny, but I myself find the fact that someone called Dioneo shows up to crash Filomena’s Dio-backed declaration funnier.)
I was especially thinking about Diotima’s (oh no, another Dio!) ladder as well — like Socrates, Boccaccio is also channeling his wisdoms (?) through female mouthpieces. Maybe Socrates was making a point about midwifing transcendence; but Boccaccio’s erotic, productive feminine wisdom birthed … nothing so divine, but something earthly, like songs and dances in the end?
Like you were saying, the characters are titillated by the erotic contents, but channel their impulses properly within bound (unlike Paolo and Francesca who channeled that to their groins), and end each day with songs and dances — which is a kind of artistic creation? Maybe that's all that a worldly (i.e. not divine) comedy can birth?
I started out thinking that these stories would be comedies in the classical vein, but only two of them elicit any laughter from the group: the last one, and the fifth, the one about Andreuccio. I think this is actually my favorite of the day. The narrative moves quickly, there's some slapstick silliness, and in the end it turns out Andreuccio is not entirely a pawn of fortune. I'm not sure why the last story "gave the entire company so much to laught about that there was no one whose jaws did not ache..." unless maybe it's just the bawdiness of the premise.
Lia wrote: "Filomena repeatedly cries Dio this, Dio that, both in the proem and in her story … and then someone called “Dioneo” pointedly negates everything she claims, even if Dioneo is homage to Dione, that still doesn’t take the pun away."And there are two gods invoked in the by Pampinea's song in the conclusion: the god of Love in this world, who is adored "as if you were my god," and God of the next world, in whom she has unbroken faith. There is an interesting balance there between Dione and Dio.
Lia wrote: "More on our dialogue about Filomena's claim that "God and Truth will take up arms on my behalf." Her story on Day 2 seems to dramatize that“Oh, for the love of God, have mercy!” [“Mercé per Dio!] ..."
I haven't read all the stories yet so I can't immediately judge him this way, but so far, Dioneo (New God?) reminds me of a class clown who willfully makes wisecrack jokes as a sign of youthful rebellion. His story seems to mock and reveal how you can't force youth or nature to social doctrine or dogma such as the meticulously guarded holidays and rules. His name also reminds me of Dionysius, the wilder, underground version of Zeus (who was twice-born, so maybe it goes along with the name Dio-neo: God Anew). It's interesting as the term renaissance also means 'rebirth' in French.
Roger wrote: "I was struck by Pamphilo's story, #7. This story of the debauched virgin Alatiel seems to break new ground in salaciousness. The previous amorous women have been either widows or properly betrothed..."This reminds me of the various names for syphilis. The English and the Italians called it the French disease while the French called it the Neapolitan disease. Arabs called it the Christian disease. Even the French Kiss (which is a term used in English) was previously called the Florentine kiss (un baiser Florentin) One tends to point the accusatory finger criticizing salacious behavior at a foreign origin but Dioneo seems to do the opposite in pointing out that not even the judges or abbots or our trustful wives are safe from human desire.
Interesting point, Borum. It’s funny how some characters’ personalities/characteristics stand out even by day 2 — Dioneo, Pampinea, Filomena — and others are less defined, at least so far — Emilia and Lauretta, for example. Also, I still haven’t figured out which of the young ladies are the objects of which young man’s affections.
Lia wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Beritola returns to her human family and the deer drop away. Maybe this is meant symbolically? The examples I can think of from classical literature ..."No suckling involved, but a..."
Alatiel's loss of speech also reminded me of the Little Mermaid. The man from her homeland who speaks her language seems to be the only one who doesn't take advantage of her body and actually helps her.
Susan wrote: "That was quite the odd little song at the end of Day 1. I’m not sure what to make of it at this point. ..."
I was really puzzled by Emilia's song, too. Even the other members of the party seemed to be wondering at the meaning of this. Is it some kind of platonic symbol of the ideal image that one strives for and venerates but is not possible to attain in the real world?
It also reminded me of a song by a Norwegian singer Sigrid called Mirror singing of not just self-love but self confidence. I guess it's healthier than self-loathing or self-shame that lots of young girls go through. Its chorus goes like:
It had to break, I had to go
'Cause it took me walking away to really know
I love who I see looking at me
In the mirror, in the mirror
Nothing compares to the feeling right there
In the mirror, in the mirror
I, I-I-I
I-I just fell in love with the person in the mirror
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7lr7...
Susan wrote: "Interesting point, Borum. It’s funny how some characters’ personalities/characteristics stand out even by day 2 — Dioneo, Pampinea, Filomena — and others are less defined, at least so far — Emilia ..."Me, too. I've been trying to follow which story and song belongs to which person. :-) I don't think it will be revealed which guy likes which girl in the end, but I'm still looking out for hints.
This section was very interesting. I don't know how to call those short descriptions (or commentaries) before the beginning of the tales, but, I was very confusing after I read the one about Alatiel and the beginning of their story it's said that was turned into a wive. I have to come back to see if I was reading in a wrong way. Well, at the end I understood.While reading Alatiel's story I had to keep in mind that this story is medieval, so Constantinople was a christian kingdom. Just at the 1453 that the Muslims took over it. I was reading and thinking: "wait! How the sultan's daughter is not recognized in a Muslim city?"
Borum wrote: "Dioneo (New God?) reminds me of a class clown who willfully makes wisecrack jokes as a sign of youthful rebellion. His story seems to mock and reveal how you can't force youth or nature to social doctrine or dogma such as the meticulously guarded holidays and rules. His name also reminds me of Dionysius, the wilder, underground version of Zeus (who was twice-born, so maybe it goes along with the name Dio-neo: God Anew). It's interesting as the term renaissance also means 'rebirth' in French."Yes! He comes across as a petulant child who gets away with testing the rules simply by being charming and clever.
I think of Dionysus as more terrifying though, abstain from drinking, say no to him, and things might get messy fast! Instead, Dioneo reminds me of Cupid (or Eros), son of Venus, who taunted and needled Ovid and Apollo (both associated with poetry). He's also (according to Diotima in Plato's Symposium) an intermediate being, who traverses between the divine and mortal, who “lends to Psyche the wings that will carry her across the boundary.”
It's getting more and more suspicious that the brigata marched out of a church (supposedly a space that mediates the divine and the mortal but seems to be ineffective, and its agents thoroughly human) and into the garden where they’re being teased by a Cupid-like creature who insistently injects erotic contents, possibly enticing them to transgress the boundary in the process.
Susan wrote: ", I still haven’t figured out which of the young ladies are the objects of which young man’s affections ..."We know Neifile is one of the three. From the Proem:
"Neifile’s entire face had turned scarlet with embarrassment because she was the object of one of the youths’ affections."
Rafael wrote: "While reading Alatiel's story I had to keep in mind that this story is medieval, so Constantinople was a christian kingdom. Just at the 1453 that the Muslims took over it. I was reading and thinking: "wait! How the sultan's daughter is not recognized in a Muslim city?"..."I'm glad you shared that. I wish I had that kind of background "common sense" awareness. I bet a lot of the small details are lost on me because I'm not familiar with the history and customs and politics of their time.
Don't worry, Lia. In this group everyone has a particular set of (intelectual) skills. I don't know as much as the other members but I am glad that this information was useful to you. :)
Filomena's theme sounds like classical comedy, or Aristotle's definition anyway, of low or ludicrous characters who eventually luck out. That definition fits most of the stories -- with the exception of the last, Dioneo's. Which story did you like best, and why? Are they simply short comedies or are they something more?