Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Day 5 appears to be a response to Day 4. The theme is still love, but in this case the stories end happily, though only after the lovers endure some adversity. The stories do not appear to agree on what love is, however, or how it comes about. The first story, told by Panfilo, tells of Cimone's infatuation with Efigeneia, who is powerless as she is fought over and kidnapped and treated like a prize of war. There are overtones of Greek epic here, and maybe that is Panfilo's intention. It's certainly not a romantic view of love. How would the story read from Efigeneia's point of view?

Is Gostanza in the second story Emilia's response to Panfilo's Cimone? Along with Fiametta's story 9 about Federigo's falcon, this one seems to be the most "romantic" love story of the day.

After presiding over the tragic stories of Day 4, Filostrato feels bound to make amends with his story of LIzzio, his daughter, and the nightingale. This story seems like a reversal of the story about Tancredi in Day 4 (4.1) where the father has an entirely different way of showing love for his daughter. Does it mean anything that it is Filostrato who tells a story like this?

Stories 5, 6, and 7 all rely on recognition as a plot device; 5 and 7 both use a scar or a birthmark, reminiscent of the way Eurycleia recognizes Odysseus.

Story 8 stands out for its evocation of Dante. A lot of Boccaccio's stories utilize a frame, just as the Decameron itself does, but in this story he uses a frame without explicitly setting it up that way. Nastagio, who like Dante is from Ravenna and loses his way in the woods, is witness to an allegorical punishment. He uses a daily reenactment of this punishment to induce the woman he loves to return his love, and she does, out of fear. Is this love? Can we conclude anything from this about Boccaccio's opinion of the Divine Comedy?

And finally, there is Dioneo's story, which reminds me of a modern sitcom. Pietro and his wife may be incompatible by nature, but they discover they have compatible idiosyncrasies. There have been worse marriages.

There's definitely a change when we move to happy endings. In six of the ten stories there is no actual illicit sex. In three others (4, 6, and 7) young people fall into bed together, but immediately rectify things by getting married (sometimes under threat of death, but never unwillingly). Only Dioneto's ultimate story, with its MMF threesome, is truly transgressive, and in that it breaks new ground.

I feel bad. I am going to read the Decameron but the version on Serial Reader (free) is not…hmm, modem reader friendly.

I did order an easier English translation, but have no decided to make a whole project of Italian Renaissance history & classics. Not sure of what the order is going to be. I can share my TBR booklist here if anyone is interested though.

Soscha wrote:... I can share my TBR booklist here if anyone is interested though. ..."

Soscha -- why don't you add it to the Background thread if you think it would be of value to others on this discussion?

Dioneo’s story was really interesting. I found this line from the wife really interesting.

“Since this sorry pervert abandons me to go up the dry path in his clogs, I’ll do my best to get others to board my boat and carry them through the rain.”

My translation had a footnote about how clogs during this time period typically evoke the idea of homosexual love. Along with the dry path verses boarding a boat in the rain.

Fiammetta's story (#9, with the roasted falcon) contributed something to O. Henry's "The Gift of the Magi."

By the way, how did it come about that nearly all the stories are about love, or at least sex? The original plan was simply that they would tell stories. Why are there no stories about adventure, or families, or grand accomplishments, or religion, or anything else? The first three stories on Day 1 are not specifically about love, but Diomeo then tells a story about a licentious monk, and we're off to the races. Is it because most of the audience is young women?

For some reason I was taken aback more by the stories this week then before (maybe because I wanted to take notes instead of just reading, like I did the weeks before..)

In the first story the names stood out for me: Ifigeneia and Kassandra (that at least was the spelling in my version). Is it merely because the story takes place in Greece? Or are the names invoked for some other reason? Of course these women have 0 agency and are merely loot and do nothing of their own. (Of course that can be said about a lot of the stories in the Decameron, where all women patiently wait for their marriages to be arranged, unless their caretakers take too long to establish that)
I especially thought this off putting because the story is told by a woman.

Story 8 I kind of thought revolting, with my modern view. Where at first you do have a bit of pity for the man this kind of turned around, because he's basically (to me at least) saying that women just shouldn't say no as long as the man puts any effort into it.

As I said before: this is my modern gaze and I'm fully aware that things where different back then. I do wonder now though what this says about Boccacio and wether real women would've told different stories.

Roger wrote: "By the way, how did it come about that nearly all the stories are about love, or at least sex? The original plan was simply that they would tell stories. Why are there no stories about adventure, o..."

Day 2 is much more varied and not as focused on love, but Neifile makes desire the subject of Day 3. Filostrato reacts against this when sets the tone for Day 4 because he has been "perpetually enslaved by love... Consequently, it is my pleasure that the subject for us to talk about tomorrow should be none other than the one that fits my situation best, namely, those whose love came to an unhappy end." Filostrato has been unlucky in love and wants others to commiserate with him through stories of unhappiness. Day 5 is in turn a reaction to Day 4, when the subject becomes lovers who find happiness instead.

This appears to be a kind of dialogue, though a very indirect one.

Marieke wrote: "Story 8 I kind of thought revolting, with my modern view. Where at first you do have a bit of pity for the man this kind of turned around, because he's basically (to me at least) saying that women just shouldn't say no as long as the man puts any effort into it."

I find Story 8 very disturbing, and intentionally written to be that way. What do you think of Story 9? It seems to me that this story (about Federigo and his falcon) is almost a direct response to Story 8. Sometimes these stories seem to be arguing with or against each other, sometimes not. In this case, I think that's what they're doing.

Thomas wrote: "Can we conclude anything from this about Boccaccio's opinion of the Divine Comedy? ..."

Not sure about how to read this story, but whatever background I've encountered about Boccaccio suggests that he had what I would call a competitive (male?) attitude towards Dante -- he too wanted to be among the greats of the great in the transition to the use of Italian rather than Latin for the creation of literature. (The Twentieth Century board here on Goodreads just had a thread on ([in]famous) writer ego wars that exist today!)

(I have been looking at a bit of Petrarch, since he is considered the third of these "Three Crowns" of Italian literature. (view spoiler)[I go now to read this: https://slclmediaportal.com/2017/11/0... (hide spoiler)] Anyone here have a suggestion for a bit of Petrarch that could be a palate cleanser between Boccaccio and our next read? )

Thomas wrote: "This appears to be a kind of dialogue, though a very indirect one...."

Just like ten tipsy friends in a pub telling (dirty) jokes in turn.

Marieke wrote: "Story 8 I kind of thought revolting, with my modern view...."

That's one of the few stories featuring hardcore supernatural elements.

I'm thinking about Story 8 of the third day where an abbot "sends a guy to purgatory" in order to have sex with his wife. Or story 2 of the fourth day where a woman is seduced by "Angel Gabriel"  Here the fantastic element is just a farce but it felt quite real for the people involved.

Maybe that's the case with this story as well: the suitor organised a feast and hired two actors to convince his beloved to accept his advances. The performance was so convincing thst nobody learned the truth...

Edit: there is only one more story so far containing unexplainable fantastic elements: the one about the woman who dreamed exactly the spot where her lover was buried ( IV, 5). It was narrated by the same Philomena. Is Philomena just adding a twist to her stories or is she truly superstitious?

Emil wrote: "Edit: there is only one more story so far containing unexplainable fantastic elements: the one about the woman who dreamed exactly the spot where her lover was buried ( IV, 5). It was narrated by the same Philomena. Is Philomena just adding a twist to her stories or is she truly superstitious? "

I love this question. Not that I have an answer, but... Philomena is the one who initially objects to Pampinea's suggestion that the women exercise their rights and leave the city, believing full well that they will be able to feast "and make merry without ever overstepping the bounds of reason in any way."

To the contrary, Philomena, "who was very prudent" advises that "we are all women, and every one of us is sufficiently adult to recognize how women, when left to themselves in a group, can be quite irrational, and how, without a man to look after them, they can be terribly disorganized."

Thomas wrote: "Marieke wrote: "Story 8 I kind of thought revolting, with my modern view. Where at first you do have a bit of pity for the man this kind of turned around, because he's basically (to me at least) sa..."

I was also disgusted with Story 8 and I was wondering if it was a tongue-in-cheek comment on justification of sexual aggression or predation and blaming the victim instead, until I saw your comment on Philomena being the storyteller. Pampinea seems to be the more 'independent' proponent of feminism albeit in an antedated sense and her story seems like an apt neutralizing response to story 8. Her story is another didactic to women in a different direction. "you should, when it is fitting, decide for yourselves how to bestow your favors rather than always allowing Fortune to direct you, for she, as it happens, almost always distributes her gifts with more abundance than discretion."
Not only is her hero admirable in his generositiy, but her heroine is considerate and conscious of his feelings and yet assertive when she chooses her man. "I'd rather have a man without riches than riches without a man."
Dioneo's story seems to be a comical and twisted response to this as the heroine in his story also says she needs a man more than riches. "I'd rather go around barefoot and in rags, and have you treat me well in bed, than to have all that stuff and to be treated by you the way I am."