Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Day Six begins under the rule of Elissa, and the subject is clever quips. But before the first story is told, an argument breaks out between the servants Tindaro and Licisca. How does their argument, or the subject of their argument, relate to the rest of Day 6?

This is the shortest Day of the Decameron -- all of the stories (except the last) are only 2 or 3 pages long. The first story is about storytelling itself, and how a story may be badly told. We are at the middle of the Decameron at this point. Is this story intentionally place here?

Filostrato's story is especially interesting, considering the subject he chose for his day's stories, and the fact that he is as unhappy in love as the characters in that day's stories. His story this time appears to be an argument for free love, which causes the ladies a "slight twinge of embarassment," followed by laughter. Meanwhile, Emilia is absorbed in her thoughts and acts as if she has just been roused from sleep.

Elissa's story, # 9, ends with a witticism so philosophical that it has to be explained. Is a quip like a joke in that an explanation tends to ruin it? Are these in fact good stories, or just set-ups for the quips?

Dioneo, perhaps to be contrary as usual, tells the longest story of the day. Is this tale of deception and fraud possibly a response or a followup to Elissa's story about Cavalcanti and the graveyard?

Does the argument between Tindaro and Licisca at the beginning of the day relate to the Conclusion of Day 6 and Dioneo's choice of subject matter for Day 7?

What I found interesting about Elissa’s story is that it is about Guido Cavalcanti who was friends with Dante and is who Dante is talking to Cavalcante de' Cavalcanti about in Canto 10 which takes place in a graveyard.

At the end of Day 6 the members of the Brigata travel to the Valley of the Ladies, which is described as a terraced slope:

"The sides of those hills sloped gradually down toward the floor of the valley in a regular sequence of terraces, arragned like the tiers in an amphitheater, their circumferences steadily decreasing in size as one went from top to bottom."

That reminds me of Dante as well, but it's a mirror image reversal. Instead of Lucifer at the bottom, they find a crystal clear lake. They strip off their clothes and take an innocent swim.

I really loved Dioneo's story. The made-up names where brilliant in my Dutch translation. I wonder how this ties in with previous stories about the clergy. Especially the story from day one about Cepparello.

Last week I commented that in the stories the women seemed to have zero agency, patiently awaiting their arranged marriage or being considered fair bounty.
I think the discussion between the servants is meant to counter this image a bit: as Licisca argues women do take their life in their own hands, although convention may think they don't.
(of course this is also endorsed by quite some tales told in the previous days)

One thing I would like to ask: is master anything different then messer? Both are used in my translation but I don't really see any difference. Is there a difference? And if there isn't any: how do translators know when to use master and when messer?

"Messer" means someone who makes a mess.

Roger wrote: ""Messer" means someone who makes a mess."

I will think about it every time I meet the word.

I’m still reading Day 6, but I enjoyed the initial servants argument and the change of topic for the stories very much. The first story about the bad storyteller doesn’t seem to fit any of the brigata, thank goodness!

Thomas wrote: "This is the shortest Day of the Decameron -- all of the stories (except the last) are only 2 or 3 pages long. The first story is about storytelling itself, and how a story may be badly told. We are at the middle of the Decameron at this point. Is this story intentionally place here?..."


I think Boccaccio was experimenting with shorter formats, these stories are merely anecdotes.

The first story is nicely preparing the reader for the following tales, arguing that the length of a story is not directly proportional to it's quality; on the contrary.

Emil wrote: "The first story is nicely preparing the reader for the following tales, arguing that the length of a story is not directly proportional to it's quality; on the contrary. "

It is interesting that the first story of the second half of the book is about how NOT to tell a story.

Much has been made of Purgatorio XVII being the canto at the very middle of the Divine Comedy, and how it can be interpreted as a "key" to the work as a whole. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but Canto XVII does deal exquistely with the subject of love and especailly divine love, which is at the heart of the Comedy as a whole. Perhaps there is an analogy with Decameron then, if the central subject of Boccaccio's work is not morality but simply how to tell a good tale.

I found it interesting how, after objecting to Dioneo's proposed subject for the next day's storytelling and being overruled by the King as they have 'nothing to be ashamed of', the ladies go off by themselves to enjoy skinny-dipping in a transparent lake.
It also reminded me how Elissa, the former queen warned Dioneo of the burden of leading the ladies.
Elissa was also the one that warned Dioneo to stop his repertory of silly songs and sing a more serious song. This might have been her way of guarding the dignity of the queen or the ladies. It's interesting how Dioneo sang a song on Elissa's request and then Elissa sings back to Dioneo on the next day. It seems that Dioneo and Elissa both sing of unrequited love and it might fit Elissa's name which comes from Dido of Virgil's Aeneid but I thought Elissa's lyrics of love being a tyrant and cruel rule and 'to none of them he listens' reminiscent of how he cuts off the ladies' complaints. I'm also beginning to wonder whether there's a connection between Dioneo and Elissa as well as Filostrato and Emilia.

I also had this weird thought that all of these ladies and men were already dead in real life but don't realize it. They've become souls traveling along in an edenic paradise (or traveling towards it) and, like Dante in heaven, have been baptised in this lake by taking off their worldly clothes and are telling the stories about the ridiculous humans still living and struggling on earth and laughing or learning lessons at their expense.

It's an interesting thought, Borum.

Borum wrote: "I also had this weird thought that all of these ladies and men were already dead in real life but don't realize it. They've become souls traveling along in an edenic paradise (or traveling towards ..."

There is definitely something unworldly about the frame of the Decameron, and yet the stories are almost uniformly earthy. The biggest contrast with the Divine Comedy is that the story tellers don't appear to be on any kind of journey. Whether they're at the end and in heaven, or stuck in a pleasant purgatory, is hard to say, but the lack of movement in any direction is the biggest defect of the book, imo. I'm still looking for a unifying principle at work here, something that makes this more than a collection of amusing fables, but so far that has escaped me.

I think "escape" is exactly the point of the book. Dante wrote about the perilous journey of the human soul. In all his bawdy and absurd stories, Boccaccio wrote about all the stops along the way. They're both part of being human.

"Escape" may be as deep as it goes. I wonder then what qualifies The Decameron as a Great Book if there is nothing in particular to be learned from it. Is it the quality of the storytelling? Can aesthetic qualities alone make a book Great?

Thomas wrote: ""Escape" may be as deep as it goes. I wonder then what qualifies The Decameron as a Great Book if there is nothing in particular to be learned from it. Is it the quality of the storytelling? Can ae..."

I think 'escape' is not only an escape from the hardships but also the restrictions of society and one's own mind. We've already noted how Dioneo's transgressive stories and ruling have brought the ladies out of their shell, and I've noticed Pampinea's educational attitude as well as most of Fiametta(the little flame)'s stories are more on the feminist side.
I also think it's interesting to see the story from the perspective of the many layers of frames. The characters of the stories are regarded from the other characters as well as the storyteller, whereas the storyteller is related by the Decameron's narrator, who is a reflection of Boccaccio himself. Although it is up to the narrator to frame the stories from their own perspectives, it is also up to the reader (or the listener) to interpret from their own perspectives. Some of the stories and songs are met with puzzled or thoughtful or moderated responses and they remind us of how there is another story that is imagined by the gaps in the narratives. I see literature itself as an escape from one's own narrow mind so maybe there's a point in escaping per se from one's own region to another setting.

Thomas wrote: "Borum wrote: "I also had this weird thought that all of these ladies and men were already dead in real life but don't realize it. They've become souls traveling along in an edenic paradise (or trav..."

Yes, 'unworldly' may have been the reason for my weird feelings. The plague has killed most of their relatives, so I thought it was a spooky possibility, when they found this 'natural' lake 'by accident'. I've always thought there's an image of heaven as being somewhat stagnant and immobile compared to hell (maybe it's why I found Dante's Paradiso boring compared to Inferno and Purgatorio), so maybe the lack of movement in any direction reminded me of their possible end in heaven.