The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

It seems the Thorprs’ want to monopolize Catherine which may be related to Isabella’s attention to James. Their behavior seems rather controlling to the modern reader. Isabella reaches her goal and becomes engaged to James. Catherine is still very much attracted to Tilney and is getting to know his sister. Meanwhile, John Thorpe seems on the verge of proposing to Catherine.

What are your thoughts about Isabella and John Thorpe?

What do you think of their behavior?

What do these chapters tell you about the lives of wealthy men? Of women?

What does Austen think about the education of women?

In this section we continue to see what I like to think of as the “English translation” of gothic novel tropes—the heroine is kidnapped, and held against her will, and judged based on things she’s not responsible for. But in her case they all play out as instances of everyday life, not melodramatic abductions by banditti or mysterious Italian counts, and her life is not in danger, only her honor (which is serious enough).

Isabella and John Thorpe continue to behave in low-class and irresponsible ways, but Catherine is starting to get wise to this. The scene on the Royal Crescent when they use every kind of low manipulation to try to get her to abandon her engagement to walk with the Tilneys is a clear turning point in her attitude, though she was already starting to dread and avoid them. The Tilneys, by contrast, are almost excessive in their punctilio and devotion to appropriate behavior.

The long chapter about the walk to Beechen Cliff really gives us an opportunity to get to know Mr. Tilney and, to a lesser extent, his sister. Austen shows herself capable of giving a strong rendering of the sort of conversation indulged in by educated people of her day, ranging across a wide spectrum of topics (though it’s notable that when Henry Tilney strays beyond books and the picturesque into current events and politics, his dialogue is merely summarized). It also gives Austen a chance to indulge in a mini-polemic on the subject of women’s education. She is clearly being sarcastic when she speaks of it being to a woman’s advantage to be as ignorant as possible, but she turns it into a little dig against what we now call mansplaining.

Speaking of which, that chapter is one of the more controversial in the book on account of Mr. Tilney’s behavior. Readers react very differently to it: some think his joking is all in fun, but others find his style of mockery cruel or even abusive. His sister’s response to it implies that she is quite comfortable with it and doesn’t take it seriously, but she fears Catherine will be hurt or offended. I have a theory that only children tend to lean toward seeing it as cruel, while people with siblings tend to see it as simply ordinary teasing. What do you think?

I view it as mocking in fun and is a main part of his character. When he first meets Catherine he asks the expected questions in a mocking tone seemingly indicating he fines the societal norms a bit silly.

I agree with you! I’ve always found him utterly charming and rather kind, so it was startling to me when I started reading that people found him abusive.

Abigail wrote: "I agree with you! I’ve always found him utterly charming and rather kind, so it was startling to me when I started reading that people found him abusive."

I do find thorpe’s abusive. They never listen to Catherine’s wishes and also seem to have an agenda

The Thorpes may have a literary source; they remind me strongly of the lower-class relatives in Fanny Burney’s Evelina, who are constantly trying to pressure her to go places and do things she doesn’t want to. Catherine seems to have gotten a pretty good sense of who they are quite quickly, for all her naïveté. She may not be sophisticated but she has a strong vein of common sense.

What are your thoughts about Isabella and John Thorpe? What do you think of their behavior?
Following on from what I said in the previous section, both Isabella and John seem to be caricatures of the more annoying Bath socialites that the author would have encountered or at least gossiped about with her friends and family. Some of her letters to her sister are evidence of that.
Their selfish and egocentric approach to life allows them to ride roughshod over the feelings and wishes of others so that coercion becomes a regular and natural strategy in order to fulfil their ambitions. Both siblings are habitually dishonest in their dealings with others, with Isabella’s over effusive ‘friendship’ with Catherine yet another calculating ploy to overwhelm her senses. Isabella is continually trying to place words into Catherine’s mouth and thoughts into her mind which make her worse than John in my mind.

Catherine is placed in a difficult position because of her brother’s attachment to Isabella, but her naivety concerning John and his lovemaking seems overplayed when she doesn’t realise he is angling for an opportunity to ask her to marry him. Her responses may be polite and correct but they lack any insight beyond the literal.

In respect of Mr. Tilney’s ‘teasing’ he could be forgiven for not knowing Catherine well enough, but it could also be argued that he is just ‘showing off’ albeit in different manner to the way John Thorpe ‘showed off’ with his horse talk.

I was struck once again in these chapters with the number of references the author made to fashions, clothing and types of muslin. It is certainly a theme reaching beyond Mrs. Allen’s amusing preoccupation. Maybe a reflection of the shallowness/superficiality of Bath society.

Interesting about the fashion references! I hadn’t thought about it but you’re right, there’s more about clothes here than is normal in JA novels. Isabella is also obsessed with clothes in her shallow and insincere way, and Catherine too, worries about clothes more than other JA heroines, perhaps as a marker of her social insecurity.

I’ve been pondering the mystery of John Thorpe’s finances. His mother is living in a modest way and seems to be trying to appear wealthier than she is. Her son is a university student but keeps his own horse and carriage, albeit a very basic carriage. He also mentions having three hunters and riding with one of the top hunts in the country, which ordinarily only very rich people could do.

Maybe he is lying about the hunters to impress people. Maybe he is running headlong into massive debt, as a fair number of university students did in those days. Or maybe his mother is pouring all the family’s money into the oldest son in the hope that he will improve the family’s fortunes in some way—but how? The mother seems very foolish and indulgent, so maybe she’s just spoiling him, though he can’t go on for long at his level of spending.

The editor of the edition I’m reading, Shapard, goes so far as to imagine that John Thorpe may have received a legacy from an uncle or other relative, to account for John’s seeming so much richer than his parent, but that seems like reading something into the text that isn’t there. Anyway, it’s not a major issue but it’s bugging me.

I see Isabella a bit differently. I think the Thorpes are less affluent than the Morelands. Isabella has clearly set her cap for James, and appears to be using Catherine to achieve that result. I guess I see her as conniving.

Abigail wrote: "In this section we continue to see what I like to think of as the “English translation” of gothic novel tropes—the heroine is kidnapped, and held against her will, and judged based on things she’s ..."

I like your comparison of the ‘kidnap’ of Catherine with the literal carrying off and imprisonments which occurred in Anne Radcliffe’s novels. My recognition of that link became much clearer having read Udolpho and The Italian.
Deborah’s insightful point about Isabella also indicates an entrapment. This time the victim is James. He is obviously attracted by Isabella’s beauty, but what else? Is that really enough to marry her? Unfortunately he has no one to advise him about her insincerity. An older or less naive sister might have cautioned him, but Catherine’s reaction to the engagement seems to be that of pleasure rather than concern.

Trev wrote: "Abigail wrote: "In this section we continue to see what I like to think of as the “English translation” of gothic novel tropes—the heroine is kidnapped, and held against her will, and judged based ..."

One can say women were being entrapped by society by the need to marry well in order to have a roof over their head and food on their table

Deborah wrote: "Trev wrote: "Abigail wrote: "In this section we continue to see what I like to think of as the “English translation” of gothic novel tropes—the heroine is kidnapped, and held against her will, and ..."

I think ‘entrapment’ by 18th and early 19th century society went far beyond just women to include all the poorer classes who were denied education and forced to work on subsistence wages without any welfare benefits in order that the rich and titled could maintain their lavish lifestyles. Very few entrepreneurs from the lower classes broke those chains to rise up in the world just as very few women broke their bonds of expectation to become independent and successful in their own right.

Trev wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Trev wrote: "Abigail wrote: "In this section we continue to see what I like to think of as the “English translation” of gothic novel tropes—the heroine is kidnapped, and held agains..."

I agree. I focused on women because of the book