Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

The Nutcracker and the Mouse King is our Old School Classic Read for December 2022. This is a spoiler thread.

I'm in!

Yes, I’ll be reading it too! :)

Me too. I've only ever seen dance productions like Matthew Bourne's Nutcracker. This will be my first time reading Hoffmann's story.

Began reading today. It's lovely.

Me too. Hoping to start by the weekend.

I’m starting my Sendak-illustrated edition this weekend.

I'm in. I've only seen the ballet, but my daughters are in a version of it in 2 weeks, so seems like a good idea to read it now.

Carolien wrote: "I'm in. I've only seen the ballet, but my daughters are in a version of it in 2 weeks, so seems like a good idea to read it now."

How wonderful with your daughters - enjoy! I bet they've been working hard!

I have read the first 11 chapters that is about 65% in. I really enjoy the "backstory" of Godfather Drosselmeier and his nephew. One thing I found surprising was that the "Christ Child" delivers gifts much like our modern version of Santa Claus.

I like the whimsy of the story. It is a fantasy fit for the minds of children and adults. I find it delightful so far.

It's such a fun read! Full of whimsy as you say, Lynn.

Annette wrote: "I’m starting my Sendak-illustrated edition this weekend."

I bet the Sendak illustrations are wonderful!

Finished and I gave it 5*. The last three books I read were classics about jealousy and murder. This was such a nice change of pace!

I'm about 25% done an enjoying it - as other have said, very whimsical and light.

I like the moment where Fred doesn't understand the limitations of the mechanical castle, and the godfather tells him, "as the mechanism is made, so it must remain." A moment of practical wisdom before the magic begins . . . and upends it!

Lynn wrote: "One thing I found surprising was that the "Christ Child" delivers gifts much like our modern version of Santa Claus."
It's something I have seen a few times in German literature and movies. Apparently (I just made a quick search), it's common in quite a few non-latin European countries.



I am really enjoying the book so far. I love how we are thrown into the heat of the battle, through Marie's eyes and captivation, then brought back to her body and pushed back into the battle when are attention goes fully back to it. Moreover, the descriptions are very vivid and really evoke the feeling of loss and abandon of control of a nightmare. Hoffmann really shows a great mastery of perspective.

If the rest of the book is as good, I might read the full collection, or at least one of the books.

By the way, I am reading it in German. I'm rather pleased with myself, I haven't read much in German these last few years, but this is the third book I'm reading in that language this year.

A bit further now, almost half done - I actually like the story within the story even better than the frame with the mice/nutcracker battle.

The story of Pirlipat and the Queen of the mice has fantastic storytelling! I can imagine children listening to it with their attention utterly absorbed (well, and at least in my case, adults too)!

I finished, and I really enjoyed it. My favorite part was the extended fable/history in the center of the book, but I can imagine many children raptly lisrening to the bookend parts. I like all the sounds rhythms, and playful nonsense rhymes she worked in throughout; I wonder if later writers like Dr. Seuss found her an inspiration?

I just finished reading the Sendak edition. I enjoyed it! My short review is here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I also finished it. I found the end a little lenghty and maybe a little too cliché in the reflection of a child's expectation. I found the dream-like sequences in the beginning of the story much more captivating and real.
That being said, I didn't expect the scene in the cabinet. Alice in Wonderland really isn't far (to say nothing of Narnia).

I have also finished and admit to feeling a bit disappointed. I was looking for magic, as I have always found the ballet to be, but it fell a bit flat and perhaps a little too juvenile for my tastes. Funny, I have just read a Christmas story that would be rated very sentimental and childish, yet it touched my heart, so no accounting.

Since I grew up - and still live - near Seattle, I've actually seen the Sendak/Kent Stowell version of The Nutcracker performed many times. (The set designs were amazing, very much like the illustrations in this book.) But, I've never read this book until now, though it's been sitting on my bookshelves for a long, long time! I loved when Marie looked into the lake and thought she saw Princess Pirlipat, only to discover it was herself. I really enjoyed it. Now I've got the whole story behind the ballet. Thank you for choosing this to read!

There were parts of the ballet that always puzzled me, and I feel like the backstory/fable in the middle of the book added something such that I'll appreciate the ballet more when I ever see it again.

Greg wrote: "There were parts of the ballet that always puzzled me, and I feel like the backstory/fable in the middle of the book added something such that I'll appreciate the ballet more when I ever see it again."

Good point Greg. The ballet is familiar and lovely, yet the story does have a few holes that this text fills.

That is true, Greg and Lynn, and I hope that the next time I see the ballet I realize this read adds something to the experience. I used to take my girls to see a kid's version of it every year at the Athenaeum in Alexandria when they were small. I don't think they do it any more. Too sad.

I liked it. It was fun to read the story behind the ballet I have watched dozens of times. Part of the magic of the ballet is the music, right? So I was humming to myself while reading.

https://peteducate.com/what-is-a-grou...

This may give some contextual knowledge about the "Rat King".

I finished this a few days ago. Am I the only one who found this a bit scary for youngsters? The 7 headed mouse for one and the way the parents laugh at Marie came across to me as horrible. Maybe it was my translation. But I didn’t think Marie was treated very well. No one believed her and chastised her experiences in the “wardrobe”. (Yes, I couldn’t not think of Narnia).

My favorite part was when Marie went to the Capital with the Nutcracker and when she saw herself in the reflection thinking it was Princess Pirlipat. Bridget, I think you mentioned this.

I may be one of the few who has never seen the ballet but I am familiar with the music. Is the ballet taken from this part of the story - swan lake, sugar plums, etc.?

Lori wrote: "I finished this a few days ago. Am I the only one who found this a bit scary for youngsters? The 7 headed mouse for one and the way the parents laugh at Marie came across to me as horrible. Maybe i..."

"Swan Lake" is different.

"Nutcracker Ballet" only has the first section. There is a party with presentation of toys. Clara falls asleep with a dream of the Mouse/Nutcracker fight. The Nutcracker turns into a man and dances with Clara. She wakes up. That's basically it.

I went with my family as a kid to see The Nutcracker performance every single year for so many years. It was a rich family tradition, so it is so amazing and nostalgic to be coming back to the story here. I need to go back and watch the ballet again though I think. Such an imaginative story. I love the names of some of the minor characters, too. I mean, how can anyone not like the names Tomcat Purr or Frau Bacongobbler?

Lynn wrote: "Lori wrote: "I finished this a few days ago. Am I the only one who found this a bit scary for youngsters? The 7 headed mouse for one and the way the parents laugh at Marie came across to me as horr..."

Goodness, yes, you’re right, Lynn. I’m not well versed in my ballets. I should see if I can find a version to watch from home. Thanks for clearing that up.

Thanks for adding this story in time for Christmas! This was such a fun group read, and I always learn from the discussion.

Lori wrote: "I finished this a few days ago. Am I the only one who found this a bit scary for youngsters? The 7 headed mouse for one and the way the parents laugh at Marie came across to me as horrible. Maybe i..."

Lori, I could totally see that as far the violence that occurs, even though it is more in the fantasy part of story. I never remember that from the ballet performances. I guess maybe it gets a pass and is still considered more geared towards children literature because it is fantasy.

Lori wrote: "I finished this a few days ago. Am I the only one who found this a bit scary for youngsters? The 7 headed mouse for one and the way the parents laugh at Marie came across to me as horrible. Maybe i..."

I would like to add a few thoughts:
First of all, children's literature has evolved a lot over the last two hundred years. Quite a few really dark things where published as soon as one left strictly educational pieces. To remain in German literature, I could name Max and Mortitz, for example, two really mischievous kids which, after six or seven, end up killed and devoured by ducks, to the great relief of the local townsmen.
A classic, though half a century later than the Nutcracker.

Then there is the history of tales, of course, which originally weren't meant for children: they were part of the general oral literature, and were meant for adults. Children just happened to be around. You can read the original version of any of Disney's old classics to convince yourself of that.

So at the time, children's literature is deriving from adult stories, and there is supposed to be a double reading. For example, when Mary's mother is making fun of her, the girl and the child hearing the story don't realise why, but it feels normal, there is so much in a parent's reaction that simply doesn't make sense to a child: it adds to the realism of the story and helps the children believe the world that is being built. But to the adult hearing, it is a reminder that a child's imagination is vivid and ever so amusing, and it implies that Mary is an especially imaginative child. The laughter removes the fantasy dimension and invites the reader or the audience to see this as the world built by a young child, who cannot clearly see the boundaries between fantasy and real world.
In a world, the mother's laughter is a border: it judges where you're at in your understanding of the world and invites you to chose one interpretation over the other.

A final thought: this tale is part of a short stories collection called the Serapion Brethren, which also was the name that Hoffmann's group of literary friends gave themselves.
Basically, he assembled novella's, tales and other stuff he had previously written in a sort of anthology similar to the 1001 Nights (which was a very important, well-known book at the time, 19th century is the era of orientalism), the Decameron or the Canterbury tales. So there is a sort of lose frame around the short stories: a group of friends are discussing different subjects and telling stories that fitted whatever they were talking about (here, apparently, children's tales, but I haven't read it so don't take my word for it). So even here, in context, you have that double reading, that double audience.

Thanks for the information Anne. A lot of your points give context to the story and some of the rather harsh and brutal fairy tales and I like your point about the double read.

I'm glad this novella/short story was chosen for this month. I literally have watched the ballet countless times so it was interesting to see the comparisons. I'm just curious if anyone has also read the reimagining of the tale by Alexandre Dumas, The Tale of the Nutcracker. I wonder what the differences are.

Anne wrote: "Alice in Wonderland really isn't far (to say nothing of Narnia)."

That was my thought when I was reading the story.

I used to see the ballet with my daughters (now adults) every year at Christmas time. Reading this filled in a lot of background for me.

I too think this story might be too intense for young children. It is dark in some places which doesn't bother me in the least but I'm not sure I'd read this to a young child.

Anne wrote: "Lori wrote: "I finished this a few days ago. Am I the only one who found this a bit scary for youngsters? The 7 headed mouse for one and the way the parents laugh at Marie came across to me as horr..."

Your post was extremely informative, thank you for taking the time.

I finished the ETA Hoffman version of the story a couple days ago and I started on the Alexandre Dumas version. I think I like the Dumas version better so far; he fleshes out the story a bit and his writing style is a little gentler to the modern reader. The ballet is apparently based on Dumas's version of the story, from what I read online, although Dumas of course gave credit to Hoffman for originating the story.

One other thing I wanted to mention regarding the Hoffman story; there is a minor character mentioned by the name of Tomcat Purr (Franky pointed this out in a post above). Hoffman later wrote a whole novel about Tomcat Murr - The Life and Opinions of the Tomcat Murr - which is on the Boxall 1001 list and is apparently an important and influential work. I have to wonder if Tomcat Murr and Tomcat Purr are related in any way?

The Goodreads description of the Penguin edition makes the Tomcay Murr book sound very interesting:

It was E. T. A. Hoffmann (1776-1822) who first explored many of the themes and techniques which were later used by writers from Dickens to Dostoyevsky, Poe to Kafka, Baudelaire to Marquez. His career reached a glorious climax in The Tomcat Murr, perhaps the strangest novel of the nineteenth century.. "Hoffmann was a follower of Cervantes and Sterne, a pioneering 'magic realist', fascinated by Gothic horror, extreme mental states and supernatural events occurring within sharply (and sometimes satirically) rendered social settings. A talented composer and painter, he portrayed himself in the guise of Johannes Kreisler - the hypochondriac, antisocial and moody but brilliant musician. In this astonishing book, a vain and very bourgeois tomcat sets out to write his memoirs, using a biography of Kreisler as a blotting pad. By a printer's error, the two lives get spliced together into a bizarre double narrative. A supreme example of literary bravado, The Tomcat Murr is also shot through with the warmth, humanity and almost uncanny ability to captivate his readers which make Hoffmann the greatest of German story-tellers.

Franky wrote: "Lori wrote: "I finished this a few days ago. Am I the only one who found this a bit scary for youngsters? The 7 headed mouse for one and the way the parents laugh at Marie came across to me as horr..."

The ballet version of the violence is usually a highly choreographed sword fight where everyone laughs at the end and the mice get up and run away after they "die" ; at least those productions meant to showcase children at dance schools. The young student dancers are also given opportunities to dance solos or in small groups as the toys come to life.