Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

If anyone would like to lead the July discussion for TAKE MY HAND, please let me know. You can respond here or dm me directly. Thanks!

I'm running. Trying to keep up with book titles. Sorry.

ColumbusReads wrote: "If anyone would like to lead the July discussion for TAKE MY HAND, please let me know. You can respond here or dm me directly. Thanks!"

I will do it.

William wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "If anyone would like to lead the July discussion for TAKE MY HAND, please let me know. You can respond here or dm me directly. Thanks!"

I will do it."

Great!

If you would like to read up on the Tuskegee experiment, it may shed a bit of light on the entire mood of the whole scenario.

Got the book. Surprised that there was no wait list for the print version but 15 deep for the electronic. Are ebooks just that much more popular now? I do ebooks as a last resort. I'll start reading tomorrow and post a schedule on Friday. Has anyone besides Timothy read or is now reading it?

I got the book this weekend and also had no trouble... it was justing sitting on the shelf at my local library. I plan to start this weekend!

The timing: just received an email that my copy is now in.

I loved WENCH by this author but never read her other novel, BALM. Hadn’t heard anything about that one. Has anyone else read this author before? What are your thoughts?

I received my physical copy from the library yesterday. It was also available. I think people just don’t go to the library. I prefer using ebooks as a last resort as well. Looking forward to the reading schedule.

I’ve never read this author. Honestly, this group is the reason why I’m reading more fiction so many authors are new to me, but I’m appreciative.

Poetrygrl wrote: "I received my physical copy from the library yesterday. It was also available. I think people just don’t go to the library. I prefer using ebooks as a last resort as well. Looking forward to the re..."

Great to hear this!

I bought a copy with my Father's Day gift card... so I'm in and excited.

Is there a set schedule yet

Lets keep it simple. There are 52 chapters. We can discuss chapters 1-17 week one 7/1-7. Through chapters 1-34 week 2, 7/8-14. And chapters 1-52 weeks 7/15-31. Chapters are short and it's an easy read.

I recall the true story that this fictional accounting is based on. I hope I can find the lengthy magazine article I read about it. Will try to post it soon.

Ok, William. Thank you!

William wrote: "Lets keep it simple. There are 52 chapters. We can discuss chapters 1-17 week one 7/1-7. Through chapters 1-34 week 2, 7/8-14. And chapters 1-52 weeks 7/15-31. Chapters are short and it's an easy r..."

Can we make one minor edit? The book is broken up into 3 parts, so can we keep the dates and focus on parts?

Poetrygrl wrote: "William wrote: "Lets keep it simple. There are 52 chapters. We can discuss chapters 1-17 week one 7/1-7. Through chapters 1-34 week 2, 7/8-14. And chapters 1-52 weeks 7/15-31. Chapters are short an..."

Is it? guess I haven't finished the first part yet. OK then disregard the previous schedule and we can do the three parts the first three weeks and open the whole book the fourth.

I just finished Part 1 and like her debut novel, Wench, I’m enjoying it very much. Perkins-Valdez is the consummate storyteller and so far I’m really immersed in this story. It’s really captivating and I would imagine I’ll finish this one fairly soon.

I love the narration from Civil Townsend (love her name, too!) and how she takes it upon herself to look after the two girls -Erica & India. I also think the author does a nice job with the other characters in the book and the dual timelines as well. It’s not always as seamless as she’s making it appear.

I would love to know the real events that influenced this story and what the eventual outcome of it was.

I also thought it was ingenious that the author sets the story in 1973. The year after the first article from the associated press was published about the Tuskegee Syphilis Study.

I was curious if any one predicts any significance on the title Take My Hand or the cover art? I think it may be India, Erica, and Civil on the cover

ColumbusReads wrote: "I just finished Part 1 and like her debut novel, Wench, I’m enjoying it very much. Perkins-Valdez is the consummate storyteller and so far I’m really immersed in this story. It’s rea..."

Here you are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rel...

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/08/ma...


The NY Times article is how I first heard of the story. I hope you can get past the pay wall and read it too. Horrifying.

I'm not very familiar with deep South culture but I was a bit surprised with the relative ease with which Civil attained and seemed to walk away from an abortion in the early 70's. In the heart of the bible belt? Where even in 2023 it's become almost impossible. I'm sure there will always be underground providers but wasn't Civil part of the upper class talented tenth? It just seemed a little too easy to me.

I listened to a podcast yesterday where the author talked about the sisters who were the inspiration for Erica and India.
My pause wasn't about the money because even in that time money could move some mountains, but race was a bigger hurdle. She had to leave Alabama to do it I imagine.
I'm on page 66 and loving the layout, character building, and storytelling so far.

Any thoughts on the author's choice of Civil, to tell the children's story? And ultimately the story of Black women's reproductive health and White control of Black bodies? I thought perhaps an interspersing of passages from the children or their families pov might have been more authentic given that Civil herself feels as a daughter of a doctor and college graduate that she is a bit removed from her patients.

Civil was the most reliable witness of what this story was. She was an adult with understand of what was happening. She was educated in medicine and was a woman who had an abortion. Although there was a class difference from her patients her observations were trustworthy. She seems to have a great sense of self, even when she is wrong or has exhibited "airs" as they used to say.

Hi everyone, thanks for the great discussion! I wanted to respond to William and Sean's comments about the appropriateness of Civil as narrator.

To me, I think Civil has to serve as the POV character, because the book is her story, not India or Erica’s. To me, Perkins-Valdez’s main exploration is a young woman’s journey of moral injury within her workplace. This topic (how “well-intentioned” women in the so-called caring professions become complicit in the harm of the communities they serve) involves the sisters, but is never truly focused on them. This, of course, mirrors the whole problem with the clinic—if the patients’ wellbeing was truly the focus of the medical services, they would not be harmed in the ways they were.

Because I read the book this way, all of the disqualifying factors that William mentioned—Civil’s class background, K-16 education in respectability politics, etc. are actually the things that add to the story’s exploration of intraracial differences. But I think the ultimate point is no matter who “fills the job”, that job would never be designed to serve the sisters. When Civil connects with their family, and when she misses the mark, her resulting impact on their lives is ultimately the same.

I would love to hear others’ takes on this idea, and I admit that my view is probably biased! As someone in the affordable housing field, I am always excited to see this topic of moral injury in “do gooder” jobs in Black fiction. I guess you could say I’ve been looking for a book like this—I have come to see it as a parallel to ones like Linden Hills by Gloria Naylor.

I appreciate that insight. I try to view it from a wholistic perspective, seeing Civil as a woman who has experienced that relate to her work, giving her a unique outlook. But where you help, Gabriella is to remind us that a big part of who we are in this society is what we do.
I will have to look for Linden Hills. Thank you.
-Sean

I just finished Part 1... whoa...

I just finished part 1, and “whoa” is the right word. This discussion is excellent. I have yet to read the articles but hopefully will find a way past the paywall.

I agree that Civil should be the narrator for the reasons mentioned. Plus she understands what’s happening more than the children, especially with one being non-verbal.

I’m most interested in the parallel between her and Mrs. Seager as they both exhibit a “savior” complex but it’s exhibited in different ways. Mrs. Seager doesn’t care about these young Black women. Civil cares too much. But they both have a selfish “you should be thanking me” air about them, which I’m glad Civil pointed out when it came to Mace. It also shows that while intentions may be genuine, one has to be mindful of their ego, especially when you’re middle or upper class helping those less fortunate.

As far as the time jumps, I could honestly do without them. They’re not pushing the story forward and are a bit more of a distraction because I’m more interested in 1973. Maybe it’ll become more relevant in Part 2.

Anyone feel like Civil is doing too much or overstepping boundaries? Do you think we would view her differently if she were a white woman?

If one reads the three page "authors notes" at the end of the novel, (there are no spoilers in it), Perkins-Valdez says that she set out to write a novel about the nurses at the clinic, encapsulated in the character of Civil. I guess my qualms are driven by the fact that I just don't find Civil all that likable and I find the Williams family story more interesting than hers. But she is the tool the author used to tell the story of Black women's health care abuses and hopefully inspire readers outrage and action. This mission supersedes any complaint I may have about character development.

@poetrygrl, I think it's hard to tell sometimes what is the line in helping. As an educator for autistic kids, I have bought food, clothes, tutored afterhours, given rides, given haircuts, and more for students. That's not a Teacher's job but it you have a hungry child before you... what else can you do?

@William, Thanks for the info. I always skip authors note, so I will look at it

Tricia wrote: "@poetrygrl, I think it's hard to tell sometimes what is the line in helping. As an educator for autistic kids, I have bought food, clothes, tutored afterhours, given rides, given haircuts, and more..."

Oh, I definitely agree. We have non-verbal kids and verbal kids on the spectrum in my family, so I get that aspect. I do think sometimes people should be mindful of how they come across and not assume everyone needs to live like them. I think Civil displays this idea well.

I don't think her caring is specific to just India. In this instance, I meant it's a woman that comes from a certain class and sees someone with less so she immediately takes the position of savior. While it can be admirable, it is also a bit disrespectful because she didn't really have those conversations firsthand, build trust, and display empathy. It was pity, and her mom and others had to constantly point out questions or issues that she didn't consider. She didn't ask what was needed. But she still expected gratitude and centered herself to make sure they knew she was the reason they succeeded. It was self-gratification blended with caring. lol Now I'm realizing I don't like Civil as much as I thought I did. Dang it!

Separately, THANK YOU for being an educator. I've seen the improvements firsthand when the support is there. I appreciate you.

Part 2 open for business.

I'm wondering about the portrayal of nurse Seager. She seems a bit of a Cruella Deville stand in for an uncaring health care system. Pasty white with flaming red hair intent on sterilizing defenseless Black kids.. Bamboozling an innocent and naive group of a just graduated class of black nurses.
I imagine in real life all it took were some nameless and faceless bureaucrats to get the job done.

I'm going an a short vacation but will be following the discussion and will chime in when able. Let's keep it going!

In that time and certainly in the time of Nurse Seager, who is probably older then Civil, Alicia and probably Val would have been a Montgomery resident in the time of Dr King. That alone makes me think she could have viewed sterilizing young black woman who were young, poor, and in her mind... ill equipped to properly raise a child... would see this nefarious activity as no different than spading and neutering a pet. A lot of those people didn't see black people as human.

Read up on the original case as wanted to know the background. I’m in the UK. A book that will stay with me.

I have finished this book. I was shocked at how casual everyone thought sterilizing poor, Black, women, teenagers, and girls was the right thing to do for proverty. As this was the answer to all the ills on this subject matter. I thought the nurses were brave when confronted. Each one had a family to support and a job to lose. Civil did over step her boundries on many occasions. Civil to me was very confused.

Follow this link to read my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I will wait to read your review until I finish myself. I will say... I sympathize with Civil. I believe she had pure intentions, but she was young and inexperienced. From the point I'm at, it seems she has attempted to make up for her errors and owned them. She overstepped trying to do good, trying to help... that's better sometimes than those who do nothing and point or read the papers from afar. This author is doing a great job and our diverse opinions of Civil prove that.

Tricia wrote: "I will wait to read your review until I finish myself. I will say... I sympathize with Civil. I believe she had pure intentions, but she was young and inexperienced. From the point I'm at, it seems..."

I agree with you totally. Enjoy Reading, 📚

The way I am seeing it, the entire story, back to front illustrates much of the coming to terms and coming alive following the turmoil of the 60s and 50s with much of the parochialism from those periods and many folks black and white coming into themselves and beginning to appreciate the life they had and the evolution of the south.

Tricia wrote: "I will wait to read your review until I finish myself. I will say... I sympathize with Civil. I believe she had pure intentions, but she was young and inexperienced. From the point I'm at, it seems..."

Yes, Civil does had pure intentions, but she also recognizes more than once that she is stepping out of bounds. Yet, I wonder how many wouldn't, given the circumstances. I just received my book late this afternoon and read to the end of part 1. I feel sick over what is going on & am tearful as this part ended. While I knew these types of things happened, it hurts each time I'm reminded. I'm done for tonight. I such a sap!

No, Barb. You are human and this author does a great job of evoking feelings. The end of Part I took my breath... had to close it for that night.

Tricia wrote: "No, Barb. You are human and this author does a great job of evoking feelings. The end of Part I took my breath... had to close it for that night."

Thanks Tricia. I lived through some of those times & about from 1973 on I was a young adult. As a teen, I remember Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s walk & I remember when he was assassinated. It broke my heart. The man was amazing. Things that were done to POC & that are still being done sometimes makes me ashamed to be white.

I finished the book last night & it will stick with me for a very long time. I feel Mrs. Seager did not view those poor black women & girls as human, but more as pets that you have fixed. Civil made a comment towards the end that Mrs. Seager was only doing what she thought was best for the women at the time. I don't believe that at all. Civil was almost too forgiving, which was hard for me to swallow. This was a book that raised a lot of thoughts for me & I like that. It's also one that has heartbreak, joy, & bittersweet moments. I really enjoyed this book and how it made me think critically about the issues in it. I won't go into detail because I know others are still reading it.

I agree with you view of Mrs Seeger. @ Barb.

I am almost finished with Part II. Chapter 36 has a brillant tension, both between the primary characters and then the battle of what to say within Civil.

My previous read was Black Cake which also is a story telling personal and family stories. What do you think of how Civil is telling her daughter this story? Or Mrs. Seeger's daughter's knowledge or lack of knowledge of this history.

I just completed Part 2.

What is your thoughts on Good Intentions at this point?

I am enjoy reading this discussion, and everyone's thoughts... I was cruising the book at a leisurely pace and expecting to join in next week, but I got a notice from my library that the book was due and someone had it claimed! So I am now zooming through it and almost done. lol. It's so well written, it's easy to get engrossed.

As a few of you have noted Civil's boundaries are very fluid. There's been many times where I thought to myself "don't do that!". But I also feel like if she hadn't become as involved from the beginning this whole horror would never have been discovered. There was a big exposé in my local paper recently about Sonoma State Hospital a place for people with developmental disabilities, and how they sterilized patients for many years (it's closed and stands empty now). It's so awful and to think that little children endured such a trauma like India and Erica (Erika?), makes me sick.

I think Civil and most of the Black nurses when they started had good intentions. When it was discovered what was happening, they were put in the position of losting their jobs and being labled as troublemarkers. I do not think Mrs. Seager had good intentions. That woman was evil. She was heartless.

My thoughts today are on the diversity of experience in the book... whether it be race, class or gender. What are you seeing and feeling about the differences and how they impact the characters.

Tricia wrote: "My thoughts today are on the diversity of experience in the book... whether it be race, class or gender. What are you seeing and feeling about the differences and how they impact the characters."

When I think about class, my mind automatically goes to Civil. While she sympathizes with the other young nurses & realizes that they need their jobs, she really has little understanding how desperately they need them. Civil doesn't know what it's like to live poor like the others, so can not really relate to this. She can empathize to a degree, but she has security in knowing that if all else fails, she can work for her father.