Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Isabel takes Pansy to a dance, where she meets Ned Rosier. Per her father’s directions, Pansy won’t dance with Rosier, but Isabel lets him take a flower from Pansy’s bouquet. Lord Warburton appears and presses Isabel to dance with him. She suggests he dance with Pansy and asks about his intentions. He says he has written to Osmond to ask to marry Pansy, but hasn’t mailed the letter yet. Isabel reveals to him that Pansy is really in love with Rosier and gently questions his own motives.

The Countess Gemini is planning a visit to Rome, when Henrietta Stackpole comes to see her. Henrietta is on her way to visit Isabel in Rome and wants to know what the Countess can tell her about Isabel and if she is happy. While she’s in Florence, Henrietta also goes to see Caspar Goodwood. Henrietta recommends he not proceed with the trip to Rome he’s considering. He decides to travel to Rome with her the next day

Isabel knows Osmond doesn’t like her visits to Ralph, but since he hasn’t said anything directly, she continues to visit. When she asks Ralph about Lord Warburton’s feelings for Pansy, Ralph says Lord Warburton’s feelings of love are all for Isabel. Isabel is trying to honor her marriage vows by doing as Osmond wants, so she talks to Pansy about the importance of taking her father’s advice about Lord Warburton. Pansy doesn’t think Lord Warburton is serious about her; she still wants to marry Ned Rosier.

After a few days, Osmond has still not received a letter from Lord Warburton. He accuses Isabel with interfering and working against his wishes. Lord Warburton then stops by; he says he has been recalled to England and come to say his goodbyes. He’s sorry to leave Ralph in Rome, but it’s not warm enough for him to travel home. He invites the Osmonds to visit him in the autumn in England. That evening, Osmond accuses Isabel of working against him, including making sure he didn’t receive Lord Warburton’s letter.

In these chapters, Isabel attempts to navigate her marriage, often but not always by doing what she thinks Osmond wants. She also wants to hide her own unhappiness. How successful is she? What does she accomplish?

Is Lord Warburton lying when he says he was recalled to England? If he is, what changed his mind about pursuing Pansy?

The interchange between the Countess Gemini and Henrietta Stackpole in Florence made me start thinking about the relative honesty/secrecy of the characters. Countess Gemini is not usually honest: …did her husband [Osmond] judge only by the Countess Gemini? This lady very often lied, and she had practised deceptions that were not simply verbal.” Chapter 42. Henrietta is her antithesis. So too is Mrs Touchett. Where does Isabel fall? Closer to Henrietta, I think, in terms of honesty, but in these chapters, we see her keeping the status of her marriage very much to herself. Ralph’s secret is asking his father to leave half his share to Isabel, which is definitely a secret, but not a selfish one.

Susan wrote: "Is Lord Warburton lying when he says he was recalled to England? If he is, what changed his mind about pursuing Pansy?"

At the party, Isabel accuses Warburton of not loving Pansy, and his response is interesting. (End of Chap 43) He says he is not head-over-heels in love, the way Ned Rosier is, but he has his reasons. He is 42 years old, after all, and his notion of love is more mature now. Isabel doesn't buy it. She doesn't think reason has any part in romantic love (which might explain why she ended up with Osmond.) At this point the natural question is: what are Warburton's reasons? But she doesn't ask this.

Instead, Warburton turns the table on her and asks why she's so sceptical of his interest in Pansy. Isabel retreats, because she does not want to give him any sign that she might have an interest in keeping him close. Her anxiety on this point is telling though. She appears conflicted, even though she outwardly gives Warburton no hope.

In short, I suspect that his real interest is in Isabel, not Pansy, and after finding no cracks in Isabel's fidelity he gives up.

Susan wrote: "The interchange between the Countess Gemini and Henrietta Stackpole in Florence made me start thinking about the relative honesty/secrecy of the characters. Countess Gemini is not usually honest: …..."

Very interesting point, because, I feel like the Countess Gemini is one of the most transparently honest character, even if she lies. She is easy to understand. For all her honesty, Henrietta Stackpole has more depth, and her reasonning is more obscure to me. I still wonder what she was thinking when she was encouraging (then trying to discourage?) Mr Goodwood.

Thomas wrote: "Susan wrote: "Is Lord Warburton lying when he says he was recalled to England? If he is, what changed his mind about pursuing Pansy?"

At the party, Isabel accuses Warburton of not loving Pansy, an..."

You raise good points about Lord Warburton. I read Isabel’s part in this a little differently. My take fwiw is that Isabel likes Lord Warburton, but she isn’t attracted to him. She is still trying to please Osmond by doing what he wants her to do — i.e. facilitate the marriage between Lord Warburton and Pansy, even by using whatever Warburton’s feelings are for her (Isabel). I found her behavior in this section often painful to watch. But, she unlike Osmond is sympathetic to what Pansy wants and even to Rosier; she just doesn’t think it’s going to happen given Osmond’s opposition.

La_mariane wrote: "Susan wrote: "The interchange between the Countess Gemini and Henrietta Stackpole in Florence made me start thinking about the relative honesty/secrecy of the characters. Countess Gemini is not usu..."

Countess Gemini is a fascinating character. Perhaps she could be described as transparently dishonest. She has numerous affairs, but they are not hidden. Her motives are obvious, not secret. I keep looking for a family resemblance with her brother, but I’m not sure if there is one.

There seems to be something special in Isabel‘s relationship with Mr. Goodwood. I was struck by the fact that he was the first person she notified of her engagement to Osmond, and she didn’t tell anyone else until she heard from him. Perhaps Henrietta is responding to that, or perhaps she favors Mr. Goodwood because he is a hard-working American. I’m not sure.

Susan wrote: "My take fwiw is that Isabel likes Lord Warburton, but she isn’t attracted to him. She is still trying to please Osmond by doing what he wants her to do — i.e. facilitate the marriage."

It's so hard to believe that Isabel is attracted to Osmond and not to Warburton. I think it disagrees with me so much that I choose not to accept it. In my defense, I think the narrator and the way James tells the story encourages this reaction: why does she pick the big jerk over the prince? James keeps this question burning through the whole novel and lets the reader squirm.

Thomas wrote: It's so hard to believe that Isabel is attracted to Osmond and not to Warburton. I think it disagrees with me so much that I choose not to accept it. In my defense, I think the narrator and the way James tells the story encourages this reaction: why does she pick the big jerk over the prince? James keeps this question burning through the whole novel and lets the reader squirm.

I totally agree with you! Or even Casper, who seems devoted as well. I've gotten so frustrated with Isabel at times.

I find it interesting that Isabel admires Merle’s piano skills, but do we find any type of parallel discipline on Isabel’s part. From whom does she learn? What? Hostessing? Mothering (Pansy?) What makes up a “portrait”? Is Isabel the only character of whom we are being given a portrait? (Compared to what one might consider to be “portraits” in other stories, eg Independent Man? Or? Or?)

Thomas wrote: ”It's so hard to believe that Isabel is attracted to Osmond and not to Warburton. I think it disagrees with me so much that I choose not to accept it. In my defense, I think the narrator and the way James tells the story encourages this reaction: why does she pick the big jerk over the prince? James keeps this question burning through the whole novel and lets the reader squirm..."

I think the most thorough explanation is given when Isabel muses over what went wrong in Chapter 42:

Ah, she had been immensely under the charm! It had not passed away; it was there still: she still knew perfectly what it was that made Osmond delightful when he chose to be. He had wished to be when he made love to her, and as she had wished to be charmed it was not wonderful he had succeeded. He had succeeded because he had been sincere; it never occurred to her now to deny him that. He admired her—he had told her why: because she was the most imaginative woman he had known. It might very well have been true; for during those months she had imagined a world of things that had no substance. She had had a more wondrous vision of him, fed through charmed senses and oh such a stirred fancy!—she had not read him right. A certain combination of features had touched her, and in them she had seen the most striking of figures. That he was poor and lonely and yet that somehow he was noble—that was what had interested her and seemed to give her her opportunity. There had been an indefinable beauty about him—in his situation, in his mind, in his face. She had felt at the same time that he was helpless and ineffectual, but the feeling had taken the form of a tenderness which was the very flower of respect. He was like a sceptical voyager strolling on the beach while he waited for the tide, looking seaward yet not putting to sea. It was in all this she had found her occasion.
She would launch his boat for him; she would be his providence; it would be a good thing to love him. And she had loved him, she had so anxiously and yet so ardently given herself—a good deal for what she found in him, but a good deal also for what she brought him and what might enrich the gift. As she looked back at the passion of those full weeks she perceived in it a kind of maternal strain—the happiness of a woman who felt that she was a contributor, that she came with charged hands….”

Of course, the reader knows what Isabel doesn’t — that Osmond set out to charm her because of her money and that Madame Merle had stirred him out of his customary indolence. But also she perceived Osmond as needing her in a way that the rich, successful Lord Warburton did not appear to.

My own take is that she was young, idealistic, and a bit naive, and that’s partly why she fell into the trap.

Lily wrote: "I find it interesting that Isabel admires Merle’s piano skills, but do we find any type of parallel discipline on Isabel’s part. From whom does she learn? What? Hostessing? Mothering (Pansy?) What ..."

Isabel seems to have had a scanty formal education. ” A few very harsh critics went so far as to say that he [Isabel’s father] had not even brought up his daughters. They had had no regular education and no permanent home; they had been at once spoiled and neglected; they had lived with nursemaids and governesses (usually very bad ones) or had been sent to superficial schools, kept by the French, from which, at the end of a month, they had been removed in tears.” (Chapter 4)

Isabel herself did not agree with that take; she felt she had “large opportunities” and a “liberal education”.

I would guess she learned hostessing and stepmothering “on the job” so to speak.

Susan wrote: "Thomas wrote: ”It's so hard to believe that Isabel is attracted to Osmond and not to Warburton. I think it disagrees with me so much that I choose not to accept it. In my defense, I think the narra..."

It sounds like Isabel thought Osmond would be a good project to work on, maybe whip him into shape.

Roger wrote: "It sounds like Isabel thought Osmond would be a good project to work on, maybe whip him into shape. “

That’s an interesting take. I thought her motives were similar to Ralph’s in giving her half his inheritance, especially since the metaphors used were similar. Ralph wanted to “put a little wind in her sails,” and Isabel wanted to “launch [Osmond’s] boat for him.” Neither was a completely disinterested action, but both were well intended.

That’s an interesting take. I thought her motives were similar to Ralph’s in giving her half his inheritance, especially since the metaphors used were similar. Ralph wanted to “put a little wind in her sails,” and Isabel wanted to “launch [Osmond’s] boat for him.” Neither was a completely disinterested action, but both were well intended."

And both had unintended and negative consequences. Maybe a lesson to be learned? (Even if I don't feel like James is a "moral" novelist. His characters are just that, characters, and not object lessons).

La_mariane wrote: “And both had unintended and negative consequences. Maybe a lesson to be learned? (Even if I don't feel like James is a "moral" novelist. His characters are just that, characters, and not object lessons).”

And James doesn’t limit the unintended consequences to Isabel. My sense is that neither Osmond nor Madame Merle is very happy after the marriage. Osmond’s best acquisitions for his collections were made before he had any money, and he’s frustrated with Isabel's failures to live up to his requirements. He’s also unhappy with Madame Merle, maybe blaming her for how things have turned out.

Susan wrote: " La_mariane wrote: “And both had unintended and negative consequences. Maybe a lesson to be learned? (Even if I don't feel like James is a "moral" novelist. His characters are just that, characters..."

I fell like Osmond always blames anyone but himself.