Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Henrietta Stackpole has come to Rome, and Isabel confides her unhappiness to her. Caspar Goodwood is also in Rome and begins coming to Isabel’s Thursday evening open houses. She asks him to go visit Ralph. Other arrivals to Rome include the Countess Gemini, Edward Rosier, and Madame Merle, who is back from Naples.

Ralph finally decides to return to England. He is very ill and wants to go home to Gardencourt. He and Henrietta have become friends, and she offers to go with him. In addition, Caspar Goodwood has promised Isabel that he will go with Ralph. Isabel comes to say good-bye to Ralph.
“They stood together a moment; both her hands were in both of his. 'You've been my best friend, she said.
'It was for you that I wanted—that I wanted to live. But I'm of no use to you.'
Then it came over her more poignantly that she should not see him again. She could not accept that; she could not part with him that way.
'If you should send for me I'd come,' she said at last.
"Your husband won't consent to that.'
'Oh yes, I can arrange it.'
'I shall keep that for my last pleasure!'
Mr Goodwood goes to say good-bye, and Gilbert Osmond tells him how happy his marriage is, but as they part, Isabel finally admits to Goodwood that she is unhappy.

Madame Merle and Isabel have an awkward conversation. Madame Merle wants to know what happened with Lord Warburton and Pansy. Unknown to Isabel, she has already discussed the affair with Osmond, and he has criticized Isabel to her. Isabel’s feelings about Madame Merle have changed. ”She moved quickly indeed, and with reason, for a strange truth was filtering into her soul. Madame Merle's interest was identical with Osmond's: that was enough.” Isabel realizes what the reader already knows: Madame Merle arranged her marriage with Osmond, and he married her for her money. Isabel also realizes what Osmond’s reaction must be. “It was not slow to occur to her that if Madame Merle had wished to do Gilbert a service his recognition to her of the boon must have lost its warmth. What must be his feelings to-day in regard to his too zealous benefactress, and what expression must they have found on the part of such a master of irony?”

Isabel takes Countess Gemini sightseeing around Rome with Pansy. On a trip to the Colosseum, she meets Mr Rosier. He has sold his bibelots to raise money in the hopes of persuading Osmond that he’s rich enough for Pansy. Isabel doesn’t think the additional $50,000 will be enough to satisfy Osmond. Mr Rosier introduces himself to the Countess in the hopes that she will help his suit. About a week later, Osmond sends Pansy back to the convent. “There is to be nothing ascetic; there's just to be a certain little sense of sequestration. She'll have time to think, and there's something I want her to think about.”

1) What do you think Osmond wants Pansy to think about?
2) Isabel can’t decide if Madame Merle’s behavior fits the definition of wickedness. What do you think? What about Osmond’s?

Osmond sending Pansy back to the convent: It could be that the Countess did speak to her brother & he now knows that Rosier is back trying to get back in the mix for Pansy. Couple that with her willful (for her) resistance her father's desire for her to marry Lord W, it all goes against his plans for her. He is controlling and she has been "trained" to please him, now there is a crack in that behavior. Plus, he thinks Isabel is interfering in his plans for Pansy. Sending her to the convent will isolate her away from both Isabel & Rosier, it is a punishment for disobeying him on his wish for her to marry Lord W. Pansy should think about disobeying him and what she could to do to get back into his good graces. Emotional blackmail. Which I might add he seems to use against Isabel as well.

I have been disappointed that Isabel hasn't taken her life into her own hands and continually tries to find some way to please Osmond. She hides her feelings/state of her marriage to others as it is the proper thing to do for someone of her class and breeding. What happened to the Isabel who didn't care for what people thought of her and desire not to be conventional? I cheer when she does get her digs in from time to time.

I think I stated somewhere before that I think Madame Merle is very manipulative, but I am not convinced she is evil. She may have been the catalyst for the marriage between Osmond & Isabel but was her intention to make Isabel unhappy? I don't think so.
She and Osmond have a connection, and I think pushing the marriage to a wealthy woman somehow was to be a boon to her as well as Osmond. Which just don't know how as of yet. Women didn't have a lot of power or agency over themselves in those times especially those without their own money. She depends on the connections she makes. She wears her own veil of deception. There are secrets, I am sure.

Osmond is just a controlling man and very concerned with status and convention, and the downsides of that for others continue to be revealed. Pansy and now Isabel are "his" trophies.

Fyi -- James’s The Portrait of a Lady with Merve Emre "NYRSeminars presents the next installment of Merve Emre’s series “What Will She Do?,” four weekly webinar sessions discussing Henry James’s classic novel, starting March 3.

Having difficulties entering tonight. But for anyone interested in more PoaL. I haven't checked who Merve Emre is.

I am curious about the word "wicked". Sounds like Hawthorne to me. Haven't checked where it is in the text. My 20th century Presbyterianism moves more to "immoral behavior", but am having a bit of an internal argument among words.

Chris wrote: "Osmond sending Pansy back to the convent: It could be that the Countess did speak to her brother & he now knows that Rosier is back trying to get back in the mix for Pansy. Couple that with her wil..."

I agree that Osmond is controlling. When he sent Pansy back to the convent, I understood that as a threat : "Do as I want, or go to prison".

Lily wrote: "Fyi -- James’s The Portrait of a Lady with Merve Emre "NYRSeminars presents the next installment of Merve Emre’s series “What Will She Do?,” four weekly webinar sessions discussing Henry James’s cl..."

This looks interesting, but there's a hitch: $119 entry fee to audit the series online. ($259 to participate fully. ) Yeah, no.

Susan wrote: "2) Isabel can’t decide if Madame Merle’s behavior fits the definition of wickedness. What do you think? What about Osmond’s?"

The narrator tells us that Isabel doesn't know what wickedness is, except in the Biblical sense, but her thought process ends with her thinking that Mme Merle is deserving of pity. (Chapt 49) I think she knows Osmond well enough to suspect that Merle is as much a victim of his manipulation as she is.

The scene quickly turns to the conversation between Merle and Osmond in which Merle admits she was "horrid' to Isabel, and Osmond couldn't care less. Merle tells him that Isabel is afraid of her because she is afraid of him, Osmond. Osmond disagrees, and I think he is right. Isabel isn't afraid; she is ashamed, just as Merle is ashamed of her own behavior with Isabel. In a previous chapter, Henrietta asks Isabel why she doesn't leave Osmond:

"Yes, I'm very wretched," she said very mildy. She hated to hear herself say it; she tried to say it as judicially as possible.

"What does he do to you?" Henrietta asked, frowning as if she were inquiring into the operations of a quack doctor.

"He does nothing. But he doesn't like me."

"He's very hard to please!" cried Miss Stackpole. "Why don't you leave him?"

"I can't change that way," Isabel said.

"Why not, I should like to know? You won't confess that you've made a mistake. You're too proud."

"I don't know whether I'm too proud. But I can't publish my mistake. I don't think that's decent. I'd much rather die.... I don't know what great unhappiness might bring me to; but it seems I shall always be ashamed. One must accept one's deeds. I married him before all the world. I was perfectly free..."

So I don't think Mme Merle is wicked, but Osmond is. He thinks of no one except himself, and is "consciously indifferent" to everyone else. He's a petty narcissist, and so far he's had his way with everyone except his own daughter, which is very interesting...

Thomas wrote: "Lily wrote: "Fyi -- James’s The Portrait of a Lady with Merve Emre "NYRSeminars presents the next installment of Merve Emre’s series “What Will She Do?,” four weekly webinar sessions discussing Hen..."

Comment on the value of what we do here?

I am finding it interesting to go back and listen to certain chapters (like 17-19) ;to see how human interactions do or don't "square." Not a type of reading I really tried until The Independent Man, which I listened to, again and again, while trying to regain strength on the bike at the local Y. Very insightful for someone who has spent much of her life reading as much as possible as quickly as possible.

Lily wrote: "Comment on the value of what we do here?"

Definitely... I'm happy there are those who can afford to support the high cost of education and culture, but a lot of us can't. So we have GR, and the public library, and a few other institutions... if we can keep them.

Lily wrote: "I am finding it interesting to go back and listen to certain chapters (like 17-19) ;to see how human interactions do or don't "square." Not a type of reading I really tried until The Independent Ma..."

I’ve done a fair amount of backtracking to visit past chapters, too. The audiobook version has highlighted for me how much of the story is told via dialogue, while the ebook version has been handy for searching for particular passages.