The Debate Club discussion

Thanks for the suggestion, Emma!

This topic might be a bit controversial, so make sure we're being respectful and following the rules! I don't want to have to close it ^^

Yes. We should. Calling people by their preferred pronouns is respectful and people should understand other people's identity.

No, we shouldn't call people by "preferred" pronouns because those don't exist. You're born with your pronouns and you can't change those, so forcing people to call you by different pronouns is crazy and definitely takes away freedom of speech. You should only call people by the pronouns they're born with, nothing else.

Yes, you should call people by their preferred pronouns. If someone gets upset because you make a mistake (for nonbinary or trans people who haven't had surgery, etc.) that is on them, as long as you try to correct it. If someone corrects you, that is not them getting upset!
A point here could be a trans women/man who has had surgery and look very much male/female their preferred pronouns would be based on what their transitioned gender is. If you call a masculine trans man 'she' because that was his pronouns when he was born, yes it's offensive and you're embarrassing yourself...

So in short, yes, but sometimes mistakes happen and thats allowed, if someone messes up on accident and try to correct themselves, that is not homophobic or etc.

I mean i will call you what pronouns you look like. If you look like a woman i will say she, if you look like a man i will say he if you look like in between i will say they.

Because in reality, nobody really uses "alt/neo" pronouns when speaking in ref about someone

I agree, i personally think alt/neo pronouns dont HAVE to be used, if someone uses 'they' that works perfectly well.

I honestly don't care. it's a respect thing. if I call a girl she and she says that they go by they, they can't get upset at me because how was I supposed to know that. most people don't walk up to a stranger and ask their pronouns. I think it's unfair for someone to get mad if somebody uses the wrong ones..if fine one is blatantly using the wrong pronouns then yes they have a reason not get mad. I personally think that there are only 2 genders female (she) and male (he) but I'm not going to be disrespectful when someone says they go by something else

I mean honestly. I would say that if you wish to identify as a woman and live your life as a woman (even though j beleive you arent a woman, youre still a man, youre just living LIKE a woman - simile, comparison). You have to look like one. I will feel highly uncimfy if you are saying you use she/her pronouns and have a full grown beard. Which has happened multiple tjmes.

No i get that and if they ask me to use she her i will use it with them, just in my head, i will refer to them whatever they look like.

Coming from an american perspective:

Pronouns really feel like some assigning themselves a title and getting mad when someone doesn't use it. It does come across as the person using pronouns just wants to feel special.

I mean i think the reasonable take is that if i address someone and they correct the pronouns i use. It depends on if they are respectful or rude or not. If they are acting cordial i might mess it up again. But it wont be on purpose. If they are rude then that will be the end of the conversation right there.

Austin wrote: "Coming from an american perspective:

Pronouns really feel like some assigning themselves a title and getting mad when someone doesn't use it. It does come across as the person using pronouns just ..."

I know i've been responding atch a lot lately, but just curious, what do you mean by 'amrica perspective?'

Also, most dont use the title just to feel special... if they are nonbinary or transfem/transmasc that doesn't mean they're 'trying to feel special' becaus ethey want pronouns that go with that gender...

MidnightButterfly wrote: "I mean honestly. I would say that if you wish to identify as a woman and live your life as a woman (even though j beleive you arent a woman, youre still a man, youre just living LIKE a woman - simi..."

That is completely understandable, though, I personally would call them by their preferred pronouns, or 'they' but calling a very masculine or feminine person the opposing pronouns is a bit of a different thing, that would be very awkward.

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "Tessie ~face of an angel, mind of a killer~ wrote: "Yes, you should call people by their preferred pronouns. If someone gets upset because you make a mistake (for nonbinary or trans people who have..."

No I agree you should still call them by their preferred pronouns, whether they've had surgery or not. What i meant is if you call them the wrong pronouns on accident, and they get mad at you that is not your fault AS LONG as you try to correct yourself in the future, etc.

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "Tessie ~face of an angel, mind of a killer~ wrote: "ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "Tessie ~face of an angel, mind of a killer~ wrote: "Yes, you should call people by their preferred pr..."

I did, I get it!

Okay look, these people for example are teans women. And they chose to keep the beard, btw, they have said so.

[image error]



Why idenitfy as a woman if you actively choose not to behave/look as such?

I think it's definitely respectful to call someone their preferred pronouns, even though I don't agree with yk this whole trans stuff. But I think forcing people to say that, like making rules about it, is not okay cause it's taking away freedom of speech

Aditionally, an Oxford study has found that those who are gender dysphoric are at a VERY MUCH HIGHER chance of being more anxious, depressed esp severely AFTER they have the gender reassignment surgery than before even if they were already going through these mental health issues.

The surgery exarcebates it in most cases.

Austin wrote: "Coming from an american perspective:

Pronouns really feel like some assigning themselves a title and getting mad when someone doesn't use it. It does come across as the person using pronouns just ..."

that is so real

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Aditionally, an Oxford study has found that those who are gender dysphoric are at a VERY MUCH HIGHER chance of being more anxious, depressed esp severely AFTER they have the gender reassignment sur..."

25 Feb 2025
https://academic.oup.com/jsm/advance-...

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Okay look, these people for example are teans women. And they chose to keep the beard, btw, they have said so.





Why idenitfy as a woman if you actively choose not to behave/look as such?"

Yeah, the second person looks very masculine, just with fem clothes on. The first i could call she without feeling awkward. But there aren't a lot of people that keep their beard and such.

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Aditionally, an Oxford study has found that those who are gender dysphoric are at a VERY MUCH HIGHER chance of being more anxious, depressed esp severely AFTER they have the gender reassignment sur..."

Thats very interesting.
(not an argument, that is truly interesting) But trans people eligible for surgery are adults and make their own choices with knowledge of the risks.

𝔖𝔦𝔯𝔢𝔫 wrote: "if someone is transphobic/ doesn’t believe in pronouns I will assume their pronouns are those stereotypical for their gender ie he/ him for guys or she/ her for girls bcos if someone doesn’t believ..."

Sure, you can ask them. If you want to use them you can. But if you are being forced to say something you do not want to, that is where it encroaches it

Tessie ~face of an angel, mind of a killer~ wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Aditionally, an Oxford study has found that those who are gender dysphoric are at a VERY MUCH HIGHER chance of being more anxious, depressed esp severely AFTER they have t..."

Sure they are adukts but a lot are actually mentally fluctuating adults who need alternste forms of help if it jas been proven surgery makes things worse

MidnightButterfly wrote: "𝔖𝔦𝔯𝔢𝔫 wrote: "if someone is transphobic/ doesn’t believe in pronouns I will assume their pronouns are those stereotypical for their gender ie he/ him for guys or she/ her for girls bcos if someone ..."

exactly!

Yeah mini is making good points here

Thnks

My point earlier about being an america is that in america we arent used to titles and very often it is seen as offensive to to demand to be addressed by a title in America.

Ym point previously is that gender is used just like a title and because of that for no on anyone in this topic addressing me must use my title.

Lord protector
His majesty

Hello lord protector your majesty XDDDD

Lol see someone knows how to use gender and titles properly

Lady ducchess

Time for a mini history lesson!

Pronouns have yet to actually been enforced further back in history, in several historical prices gender wasn't exactly solidified nor were the proper use of pronouns and to this day can not be perfected, I personally do believe people should be called by their 'preferred pronouns' Now, I put this quotations because it's not really a thing. Why are they called preferred when they are just that person's pronouns, it's hardly a preference when that is who they are.

And dating back to around the 1500s is when pronouns were actually considered a thing, this includes the they/them pronoun, pronouns were hardly actually a thing until the 14th century, therefore meaning we've only taken recognition until only around 500 years ago, and this is where the root comes from, I'm not saying that having pronouns is the issue, of course not I consider myself to be inclusive though this is just an opinion, since the recognition of pronouns and the usage amongst being given to people has created the issue of using the 'proper pronouns.' Which isn't really a thing, furthermore the use of the pronoun they/them dates back to the 12th century-
You can't really tell people their pronouns at birth because gender DOES NOT equal pronouns. And vise versa.

☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "Time for a mini history lesson!

Pronouns have yet to actually been enforced further back in history, in several historical prices gender wasn't exactly solidified nor were the proper use of pronou..."

How is this true when ancient languages had various genders for freaking objects lmao but also to address a man/woman you change the grammar of the sentence?

Lol uh oh some historical revisionism coming up here. Who used such titles back in that time?

Austin wrote: "Lol uh oh some historical revisionism coming up here. Who used such titles back in that time?"

Wdym XD

MidnightButterfly wrote: "☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "Time for a mini history lesson!

Pronouns have yet to actually been enforced further back in history, in several historical prices gender wasn't exactly solidified nor..."

This actually goes into something deeper unrelated to this topic-
I have done a lot of research upon this in my free time but if you'd like know the history of such, I rather don't mind, but that's a whole entire different tangent ;-;

☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "Time for a mini history lesson!

Pronouns have yet to actually been enforced further back in history, in several historical prices gender was..."

So you are saying that people used to change the gender of the sentence based on the gender of who they were talking to but this wasnt actually the case...?

Austin wrote: "Go ahead and pm me the history."

Alrighty-
Might take me a moment tho-
I gotta leave in a just a sec, but I'll get it to ya

☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "Time for a mini history lesson!

Pronouns have yet to actually been enforced further back in history, in several historical prices gender was..."

Sorry who are refereing to Dukkie?

MidnightButterfly wrote: "☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "Time for a mini history lesson!

Pronouns have yet to actually been enforced further back in history, in severa..."


I'm so sorry... ;-;
I'm super dyslexic... can you rephrase that ;-;

Austin wrote: "☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "Time for a mini history lesson!

Pronouns have yet to actually been enforced further back in history, in severa..."

What? Referring as in how?-

Most semitic languages the gender is changed in who you speak to like in Hebrew, Arabic
Even Icelandic, a lot of words in Japanese, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Thai

☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "Time for a mini history lesson!

Pronouns have yet to actually been enforced further ..."

Could you exaplin what you mean please

Im just not sure who you are talking to Dukkie you arent using titles properly

Austin wrote: "Im just not sure who you are talking to Dukkie you arent using titles properly"

Oh hush

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Most semitic languages the gender is changed in who you speak to like in Hebrew, Arabic
Even Icelandic, a lot of words in Japanese, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Thai"

Oh!
I see what you're saying. No, not in all languages, I understand-
I mean particularly in the European and America's areas, I haven't looked into other places... that's too much work :^ (I'm a very determined yet lazy researcher-)

Austin wrote: "Im just not sure who you are talking to Dukkie you arent using titles properly"

I'm so sorry... I'm confused ;-;
I was just speaking in general... unless I'm not getting some sort of social cues here... is this sarcasm? I'm so deadass right now ;-;

If you are talking to me please use my title. How else am i suppose to know you are addressing me?

Lol gender is a social construct too. Describing…. Something we cant really define

☾ ּ ֶָ֢ ᴅᴜᴋᴋɪᴇ ּ ֶָ֢✧ wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Most semitic languages the gender is changed in who you speak to like in Hebrew, Arabic
Even Icelandic, a lot of words in Japanese, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Thai"

Oh!
I..."
European languages (and modern america which is just european languages) are very recent so no

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Okay look, these people for example are teans women. And they chose to keep the beard, btw, they have said so.

because what women look like and act like is a socially co..."

Yes i get that, i understand that then why say they are a woamn is if its a social constrcut if theres no view on what a woman is, why not just be a man then it doesnt make a difference because man and woman dont mean anything