The Debate Club discussion

Thanks for the suggestion, MidnightButterfly! Hope this folder works ^^

Thanks!

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Thanks!"

Ofc!

Every single cojnter argument against this could and has been used against the transgender community in the past. Why is this different?

The people who are claiming to be RCTA are saying they have always felt that race but how do they know? They have not ever experienced being that race?

Treatments like melatonin and facial surgery is dine to achive desired looks

To understand what it is and all just a quick article
https://www.sbs.com.au/voices/article...

The counter argument that transgender + race cant be equated
https://www.bostonreview.net/articles...

Which i disgaree with

i see your point. with every counter i could use, it could very well be used the same way with lgbtq.

BUT cultural appreciation involves genuine respect and understanding of another culture, whereas cultural appropriation involves borrowing from another culture without understanding or respect, often for aesthetic reasons. however, i guess people arent obliged to be respectful, its still disrespectful, and i believe rcta is not valid. But again you're not forced to be respectful.

Many experts agree that race is not genetic, so.. i guess?.But they also contend that even though race is a cultural construct, it is impossible to change your race. However, they also said that about transgender, although there may not be concrete evidence about how that differs from being transracial, which confuses me, so im not sure this is 100 percent relevant.

Being transgender, for example, is a biological reality, because gender identity is a mind function that is based on brain structures formed before birth. being 'transracial' is not.

the thing is, i don't see how you can feel like a certain race, which is why i disagree with this concept. if anyone can explain to me what it feels like, then i'll consider it, but i really don't understand how you can feel like any race, yours or another.

Sai :) wrote: "the thing is, i don't see how you can feel like a certain race, which is why i disagree with this concept. if anyone can explain to me what it feels like, then i'll consider it, but i really don't ..."

exactly. I mean, how do you feel like a race??

Sai :) wrote: "the thing is, i don't see how you can feel like a certain race, which is why i disagree with this concept. if anyone can explain to me what it feels like, then i'll consider it, but i really don't ..."

YESS

If someone could explain to me how one feels as if they're another race, please tell me. I mean, its just different body features, so I'm not sure how you could feel that way.

Okay but how do you know what it is like to feel as a gender?

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Okay but how do you know what it is like to feel as a gender?"

Usually very uncomfortable with the pronouns and labels associated with that gender, and getting very stressed when using those labels/pronouns. Possibly feeling very uncomfortable in your own body and wanting to have the body of the other sex. The need to dress and appear as the other gender, otherwise feeling uncomfortable and not like themselves. It also varies a lot between people but this is what I know about it.

Barnette wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Okay but how do you know what it is like to feel as a gender?"

Usually very uncomfortable with the pronouns and labels associated with that gender, and getting very stres..."

Not what I meant. How do you know what being a female, for example, is like.

Throigh observation? In that case, I too can observe what being a race is like

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Barnette wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Okay but how do you know what it is like to feel as a gender?"

Usually very uncomfortable with the pronouns and labels associated with that gender, and g..."

It's just kind of an internal knowledge, I guess. I'm not sure.

Barnette wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Barnette wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Okay but how do you know what it is like to feel as a gender?"

Usually very uncomfortable with the pronouns and labels associat..."

So we all just have that internal feeling of what people must feel like

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Barnette wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Barnette wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Okay but how do you know what it is like to feel as a gender?"

Usually very uncomfortable with the pronouns an..."

Right, you feel like a girl, right? You just know you're a girl. You probably can't imagine yourself as another gender? Genderqueer people feel the same way. They just know they're a different gender, because they feel that way and can't see themselves living as the gender they were born with. Idk how to explain this sorry TwT

Barnette wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Barnette wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Barnette wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Okay but how do you know what it is like to feel as a gender?"

Usually very uncomfor..."

I mean, idk I was genderfluid for multiple years 😅

But the thing is w have a dillema. These two things can't be true.

Either gender is made up, socially fabricated and constantly changing rendering it worthless, hence we do not need gender.

or

You feel and want to do what a male/female would do aka idk wear a dress, makeup, go out and build things etc. which are inherently (but not all the time) male/female things to do.

Either gender is meaningless or it is defined and there are set boxes

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "race is both genetic and socially constructed in the same ways that gender is the social perception of sex and the trans community doesn’t deny the existence of sex. rctas on the other hand do deny..."

Exactly.

Also, gender dysphoria is a real condition. Is race dysphoria a real thing?

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "honestly… race and gender can be related to different components of time… time in the way we understand it, is socially constructed but that doesn’t stop the passage of time beyond what is socially..."

Bro. I love that so much. Screenshotting!!!

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "race is both genetic and socially constructed in the same ways that gender is the social perception of sex and the trans community doesn’t deny the existence of sex. rctas on the other hand do deny..."

Okay but not all rctas are like that. There are some who fetishise it but others who just feel that theyve always been in the wring race, and have idenifited more and felt more like in another culture, another race, and are choosing to surgically modify to express that.

Just as trans people choose to surgically modify to reflect their chosen gender. Some trans people too, fetishise the opposite sex so decided to "become" trans, but not all!

Barnette wrote: "Also, gender dysphoria is a real condition. Is race dysphoria a real thing?"

Well, a few decades ago, gender dysphoria was not a real cindition. Now it is. We are just saying this all because we are in 2025, but i guarantee you, in a few generations, rcta will be completely accepted if transgenderism is also still accepted then.

MidnightButterfly wrote: "ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "race is both genetic and socially constructed in the same ways that gender is the social perception of sex and the trans community doesn’t deny the exist..."

Good point!

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Barnette wrote: "Also, gender dysphoria is a real condition. Is race dysphoria a real thing?"

Well, a few decades ago, gender dysphoria was not a real cindition. Now it is. We are just saying this..."

Yeah

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "Barnette wrote: "Also, gender dysphoria is a real condition. Is race dysphoria a real thing?"

race dysphoria seems to be more like internalized racism also gender dysphoria and trans people have a..."

Well said! Quick question, wdym about liberals mostly recognizing four or five races? Which races would those be?

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "also people would probably feel a hell of a lot more comfortable with their race if it wasn’t for mainstream beauty standards being what they are and the fact that we ignore that there are more tha..."

Ohh I think I see what u mean

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "Barnette wrote: "ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "Barnette wrote: "Also, gender dysphoria is a real condition. Is race dysphoria a real thing?"

race dysphoria seems to be more like inte..."

Ahh okay, yes, and thx for explaining

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "I could be more supportive if it wasn’t for the fact that the majority of these individuals have proven they are treating race as just an aesthetic and basing their “comfort” off of racial stereoty..."

I know it isnt a world i just couldnt find the right word i needed so i invented one 💪

Well, no, you are saying from a american pov on races. Indigneous isnt really a race to eastern people? It is just the asians or whatever. And europeans do not say inidigenous either

So we are saying if there were more race categories, there wouldnnot be rcta people?

But there are loads more genders cropping up evry day, yet there are still transgender people

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "So we are saying if there were more race categories, there wouldnnot be rcta people?

But there are loads more genders cropping up evry day, yet there are still transgend..."

Well i would say the westerners are fundamentally more progressive than others, if you are sating they are the only ones needing to know there are more than 2 genders.

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "also rcta people wouldn’t exactly not exist… there would still be the people left over that label themselves that way because of a fetish or because of body dysmorphia so I’m not saying it would be..."

But like i said there are so many gender labels

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "basically I’m just hoping that instead of just going “oh we’re all 1 human race so we’re all the same!” and trying to gaslight ourselves into believing we’re not racist like we are starting to do n..."

So basically the liberal idea of "we are all fundamentally human and the same" is racist?

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "honestly I find it more offensive to see indigenous as a race instead of just recognizing the actual like individual groups. so like instead of indigenous referring to all native people from their ..."

Yes, that is true

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "basically I’m just hoping that instead of just going “oh we’re all 1 human race so we’re all the same!” and trying to gaslight ourselves into believing we’re not racist like we are starting to do n..."

I've never actually thought of it that way, interesting

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "So we are saying if there were more race categories, there wouldnnot be rcta people?

But there are ..."

Well that is because eastern socieities tend to be more homogenous as in theres still diversity but of the "native" people if you get what i mean. Whereas westeen society is very multicultural theres a lot of people immigrating so more need to divide on race or combined races

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "basically I’m just hoping that instead of just going “oh we’re all 1 human race so ..."

Well the issue is that liberalism tries to get past the different cuktures and tries to say we will all get along no matter what hecause fundamentally the cultures dont matter because we all have the same values

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "also rcta people wouldn’t exactly not exist… there would still be the people left over that label themselves that way because o..."

But society is always evolving there doesnt seem to be a right and wring a black and white definitive answer anymore.

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Okay but how do you know what it is like to feel as a gender?"

comparing this to the race debate: you don't feel like any race in particular. race is literally just a set of phenotypes. but gender is different. like, you can feel super feminine, for example. but how do you "feel" white or indian or smth?

Sai :) wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Okay but how do you know what it is like to feel as a gender?"

comparing this to the race debate: you don't feel like any race in particular. race is literally just a set..."

Okay but we are saying this againnin 2025. Whereas back in the day people did not think oh men cant be another gender etc

yes but my point is, you can feel masculine or feminine. there is a feeling component to it. for example, maybe 60 or 70 percent of the girls you know probably wear makeup, but not the guys. again, there's a feeling component. there is nothing like that in race. i don't "feel" super indian or anything; i just maybe have a different hair texture or a different face shape.

Feeling feminine does nit mean you habe to change your gender, i dont wear makeup when i dint want to, thst doesnt make me a guy. Me wearing trousers/pants doesnt make me a guy.

Again, idk. Different people feel dif things so like i dont get it but if you can agree these bio men who wanna wear makeup also should get surgery to reflect that, then why cant people change their race because they wanna eat samsosa all day

Lol we do have the topic on ideologies up

Well, no race is also cultural. How we perceive certain cukture

Well rcta apis also known as ecta as ethnicity is more yk, set in stine

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "“apis”???? is that an acronym or just a typo???"

I hv no idea what i was attempting to type its a typo
Well rcta are also

Are = apis

WHAT