The Debate Club discussion

Thank you for the suggestion, ︵‿︵‿୨♡୧‿︵‿︵௱Λ尺ら ϤΛƓɪ-ㄈнΛØら︵‿︵‿୨♡୧‿︵‿︵ ~...~! I'm really excited for this debate, great idea.

Im christian. I think that morality can exist. Just different morality to christianity. To me the clear difference is the difference between the US and soviet union.

Define morality!

I'm a Christian and Sky (for those of you who know her) is an atheist and we pretty much have the same values and everything and basically I don't think religion impacts morality much

(sorry I had an energy drink and I am hyper so yeah I don't make sense right now lol)

Barnette wrote: "Define morality!"

the distinction between right and wrong.
I don't think it's much different if you have a religion just because I have plenty of atheist friends and they are fine, they have basically the same principles as any good Christian

Rhyleigh wrote: "Barnette wrote: "Define morality!"

the distinction between right and wrong.
I don't think it's much different if you have a religion just because I have plenty of atheist friends and they are fin..."

Define right and wrong?

Barnette wrote: "Rhyleigh wrote: "Barnette wrote: "Define morality!"

the distinction between right and wrong.
I don't think it's much different if you have a religion just because I have plenty of atheist friends..."

Depends on your principles. Everyone defines it differently.

Rhyleigh wrote: "Barnette wrote: "Rhyleigh wrote: "Barnette wrote: "Define morality!"

the distinction between right and wrong.
I don't think it's much different if you have a religion just because I have plenty o..."

Correct, and that right and wrong can be different based on your religion. So if your religion tells you that something is wrong, but all other beliefs say it's okay, than those morals don't exist outside of your religion.

So uhh some forms of morality can't exist outside of your religion. Idk where I'm going with this lol

😂

of course you can have morals without being religious. I know tons of absolutely amazing non-religious people and they're some of my best friends.
@barnette totally right! There are some forms of morality that can't exist outside of specific religions, but they differ so much from religion to religion.
I would also say morality isn't just knowing right from wrong, but also having good morals and principles.

Morality can still exist outside of religion.

Lol you were halfway to the point i was attempting to make @Barnette.

Morality is defined by belief structures. Secular morality is different to christian morality which is different to islamic morality ect.

The idea of there being a shared morality is a consequence of wealth. Essentially when everyone is rich and doesn't need to worry about where their food is coming from then people get to disagree over morality in peace.

Austin wrote: "The idea of there being a shared morality is a consequence of wealth. Essentially when everyone is rich and doesn't need to worry about where their food is coming from then people get to disagree o..."

😂😂😂

So if we look at places that test morality we can see the clear line differences emerge. Usually places where there is conflict or starvation or a dangerous outbreak.

Like the russian civil war or spanish civil war. That is where you get to see the difference between spanish catholic morality and russian orthodox morality versus secular morality which is represented by communist forces.

Like a good example of this difference is how each side treated captured children. Communist forces were famous for entering a village and finding a priest or local landlord or the wealthiest guy in town and they would execute their whole family. Then let the peasants loot the earthly possessions once the soldiers had their fill.

In contrast there was a quite famous scandal in spain. Where the catholic institutions would adopt children of killed communists and try to raise them to be functional members of society. Quite famously sometimes these kids had no idea they were even adopted until much later in life.

The difference shown here is that the christian perspective was that the innocence of a child was something worth preserving. Versus the materialist communist sees kids as the offspring of an evil system and must be destroyed.

Austin wrote: "So if we look at places that test morality we can see the clear line differences emerge. Usually places where there is conflict or starvation or a dangerous outbreak.

Like the russian civil war o..."

That's actually fascinating

Kinda put yourself in the zombie apocalypse that is where you see differences in morality

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "morality is a social construct I DO WHAT I WANT!"

So how do you define it then, as a social construct?

I kind of dislike the term social construct because anything that we use is a social construct. Withiut social cinstructs, we would all be living in caves. Social constructs is what makes us different from other animals.
So saying oh its a social construct so it doesnt matter, its whatever, isnt really an argument in my eyes, because anything is.

Yeah societal construct is essentially a concept of something we as a society agree on.

ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "Barnette wrote: "ray ੈ✩‧₊˚ (semi-hiatus till summer) wrote: "morality is a social construct I DO WHAT I WANT!"

So how do you define it then, as a social construct?"

oh sorry I forgot to put “/j” ..."

Oh lmao sorry 😭

yes. just because you may not be a Christian doesn't mean you don't have good or bad morals. everyone lives by certain morals they have whether they're good or bad. does religion affect the morals you have? probably. you will get certain morals depending on your religion's teaching.

for example murder is wrong. some people will immediately say yes or no. some people will say it depends on the situation. that is where religion could come into play, but it's also where your own personal morals come into play as well. one might say it's still wrong even if it's self defense. another person will say it's ok because it's self defense. and that all depends on that person's morals.

an example where religion might come to play is is abortion ok? well depending on your religion people's answer will vary. a Christian will say no. some non Christian will say yes. but then you go deeper into why is there an abortion. and that will split up even people in the same religion.

so ultimately some do and some don't. and some morals start with religion but the deeper you get and more scenarios you have it will all go down to a person's morals that don't have to do with religion.

Yes of course you can have morality without religion. I believe in God, but I'm not very 'invested'. Aka, i dont go to church, i sometimes forget to pray at night, but i do believe in Him, pray before meals and spontaneously, etc.
My 'morals' however, don't come from my religion, personally. When i have to choose something right or wrong, etc., i don't think about what God would think or how its going to impact my trip to Heaven. If getting into Heaven is as hard as i've been told, i'm going to Hell for eating too much bacon or something.

Some people, including religious people, are immoral, if all religious people had morals, there would not really be religious cults, heh.

I'm Muslim and I have a specific case of right and wrong (moral compass, morality, whatever). Islam tells me pork is unclean, therefore I can't eat it. Islam's rules have reason . Morality comes from religion but can Live without it but religion was the foundation of morality. Me? I wouldn't have a moral compass without religion but for other people it might be different.

Not only do people who are non-religious have perfectly amazing morals, plenty of religious people are completely lacking in morals. The two can go together in certain ways, but just talking about the existence of morality? It can and does definitely exist without religion

Emma (read my bio before friending me) wrote: "Not only do people who are non-religious have perfectly amazing morals, plenty of religious people are completely lacking in morals. The two can go together in certain ways, but just talking about ..."

agreed. religion can provide morals too, like my religion has avery famous line that translates to do what is right and don't worry about the outcome, which i think is great advice. however, a lot of my morals come from other places too, and same for many other people as well

Sai :) wrote: "Emma (read my bio before friending me) wrote: "Not only do people who are non-religious have perfectly amazing morals, plenty of religious people are completely lacking in morals. The two can go to..."

exactly

I found a pinterest quote that i thought yall might like to hear? Idk NOT TO CAUSE DEBATE just a share becaus ei like pinterest lol.
'I love atheists because they are good, not because they fear going to hell, but because its the right thing to do.'

I know a pastor (or priest, I'm sorry, idk the difference) and he r*ped a girl. She committed because of him..

So I don't think morality can only exist with religion, some people are horrible and they believe.

Morality can exist without religion. Morality comes from empathy. We know it's wrong to harm others because our empathy allows us to feel their emotions. That's why so many religions have similar rules.

Tessie ~face of an angel, mind of a killer~ wrote: "I found a pinterest quote that i thought yall might like to hear? Idk NOT TO CAUSE DEBATE just a share becaus ei like pinterest lol.
'I love atheists because they are good, not because they fear go..."

Yess I love that

clown_the_basking_shark wrote: "Morality can exist without religion. Morality comes from empathy. We know it's wrong to harm others because our empathy allows us to feel their emotions. That's why so many religions have similar r..."

THIS

Mal [Offline] wrote: "I know a pastor (or priest, I'm sorry, idk the difference) and he r*ped a girl. She committed because of him..

So I don't think morality can only exist with religion, some people are horrible and ..."

exactlyy

clown_the_basking_shark (Profile Update!) wrote: "Morality can exist without religion. Morality comes from empathy. We know it's wrong to harm others because our empathy allows us to feel their emotions. That's why so many religions have similar r..."

yes! if you think about it many religions have similar takes on morality, most of the time. empathy is what's super important. it's necessary to realize how you impact others.

if your morality only exists because of your religion, that's a problem

I don't think that morality is entirely created by religion.
But I think that religion can give a great help to building one's morality.
I believe that one must create his own morality and should not depend on what others(religion or other people) say. But someone who with no moral common sense at all doing that can be quite dangerous. So I think that one should adequately learn and practice conventional morality before building values and morality.

i don't think morality exists only because of religion. i'm not religious, but i have the same values as some of my religious friends. while religion can affect morality (ex: The Ten Commandments), your moral compass shouldn't rely entirely on your religious beliefs. i know people who are extremely religious and are just terrible people.
it honestly just depends on what you personally define as right and wrong

yes morality exist without religion, in fact i would even argue that true morality only exists outside organised religion.

yes, as a Christian I believe that you can be a good person without having religion

I have many atheists friends (and I was one for a period back in 2020) and they are good people even though they aren't religious

sunny ୨୧⋆｡˚ ⋆ wrote: "yes morality exist without religion, in fact i would even argue that true morality only exists outside organised religion."

i would like to know how. what is true morality?

theres generally a unanimous agreement that things such as murder, stealing, abuse, etc. are wrong. people tend to blur the lines of what those mean tho. for instance, i think abortion is murder, therefore i think its wrong. someone else may disagree and not consider it murder, therefore it isnt wrong.

I mean i disagree. Things lime murder rape and abuse are modern western concepts not universally shared by all people at all times.

Murder for example. It was common in the eastern bloc nations if europe to share multi family housing. Which means multiple families would be crammed into one apartment. There was this idea that you could inform on the family you did not like to get them sent away to the gulags. This usually ended with the person sent away dying horrible deaths. In other words it was considered ok to murder your neighbors under communism. Esoecially if they were anti revolutionary.

Theft is seen as ok by all forms of socialism.

Morality is not universal. Religion is what stops humanity from descending into the darkness when the laws start to break down.

Austin wrote: "I mean i disagree. Things lime murder rape and abuse are modern western concepts not universally shared by all people at all times.

Murder for example. It was common in the eastern bloc nations i..."

that happened to my abuelo, he was anti-revolutionary and his neighbors told on him and got him thrown in prison

i agree, there are different things culturally, but generally if someone could be considered moral, they dont think murder or r@pe is wrong

idk if one could be considered moral at all if they thought those thing were fine

like modern moralities? bc a lot of past ones wouldnt make sense today

"Nearly 90% of wars, both in the past and even today, have been fueled by religious motives — for example, the Crusades and Islamic wars, with all the killing and destruction they brought. Even wars within the same religion, like those between Orthodox and Catholics, have led to massacres. So technically, you cannot claim that morality comes from religion when religion itself incites hostility against those who do not share your faith."

ray :P wrote: "gia wrote: "like modern moralities? bc a lot of past ones wouldnt make sense today"

idk if this is meant for me but I mean like how do u define the concept of morality? who decides what is or isn’..."

i guess it depends on the religion

I guess sure let me back up my statement. Different culture and different times and different religions have different sets of morality.

I think a lot of modern day secularists think that western christian morality is the universal agreed on morality when that is just nit the case.

Like in terms of rape nomadic cultures and even some roman and greek cultures practiced marriage through capture. Or if you could convince your friends to help you capture a woman and mark her as yours then she would be yours and your wife. This is quite literally cultures that think there is nothing wrong with rape.

"All religions command us not to kill, to forgive, to be tolerant, and to love goodness — but can they truly impose that on you? What makes a good person follow these teachings? Isn't it the conscience? I believe the good side exists within all of us as humans — it's stored in our genes. Religions merely tried to nurture it, not invent it."

My argument is that without a solid foundation of Christian morality and recognizing that it is christian morality things can easily slide around when the chips are down.

Like something happens and there is no more police. There are no courts to take years to tell you that defending your family was justified. What do you do then? When no one agrees what is right anymore.

Or God forbid the opposite. The police arent there to help you anymore they are looking for a reason to beat you up and take your things. The courts have a quota of how many they need to send to the camps. Do you let the government determine what is right and wrong for you?