Reading the 20th Century discussion

Here we are in volume 5 which is comprised of two novels drawing on the fevered situation which ended volume 4:

The Prisoner and The Fugitive fulfill Swann’s much earlier warning to Marcel: ‘Though the subjection of the woman may briefly allay the jealousy of the man, it eventually makes it even more demanding’, as Marcel and Albertine are locked in a cycle of mistrust that threatens both their identities.

But these are also novels of great lyrical excitement and beauty – in the Parisian street cries, the Vinteuil concert and Proust’s virtuoso description of Venice. Above all, these two works deal with the theme of the explosion and impact of memory that runs throughout In Search of Lost Time, pointing the reader towards its resolution.

We will roughly read a novel per month for September and October but we're all used now to the loose schedule so, as before, we will be going at our own pace. I like this volume very much as it starts to tie the whole work together, looking both backwards and forwards - looking forward to all your thoughts!

I’ve mentioned before how quickly I grew tired of the jealousy in Swann in Love and this book at first and the previous one has me feeling the same however this has now turned from being annoying to comical, I find ‘Marcel’s jealousy ridiculous as he tries to come up with explanations/analysis to Albertine’s behaviour and the type of words she uses. I’m trying to think why she would continue living with him as she is aware he isn’t fully in love with her or intends to marry her since she is from a different social class, maybe she thinks he will change his mind in the future?

I’m only around 100pages in and I’m also starting to develop an understanding of the complexity on jealousy and its constant never ending cycle of admiration to paranoia. It has some characteristics of someone who is mentally unwell especially in cases like ‘Marcel’s.

I haven't started yet but I remember this as one of my favourite volumes, despite the crazy jealousy. Will have more to say soon!

Daryl wrote: "I’m trying to think why she would continue living with him as she is aware he isn’t fully in love with her or intends to marry her since she is from a different social class, maybe she thinks he will change his mind in the future?"

I don't have a sense that she loves him either. I agree that so far we don't know much about Albertine's inner feelings except through Marcel's observations and speculations.

I also find all this jealousy tiresome, but I think that Proust also gets more into the notion of 'love' here than elsewhere so far. There is still that ever-lingering blurring line between 'love' and 'desire' and some extraordinary passages where suffering and love are closely intertwined.

I’m seeing more similarities between ‘Marcel’ and past characters - the ones we have discussed on sexual jealousy (‘Marcel’/Albertine, Swann/Odette, Charlus/Charlie) and now ‘Marcel’ isolation/paranoia in his room and being bedridden (or at least not travelling outside the apartment) due to his sensitivity, a reflection of his Aunt Leonie’s hypochondriac character and her confinement to her bed in volume 1, back to the theme of memory as a cycle like Roman mentioned “looking both backwards and forwards”

Vesna wrote: "I agree that so far we don't know much about Albertine's inner feelings except through Marcel's observations and speculations."

Yes, the books are so much about Marcel's interiority and perspective that it can be hard to anchor his perceptions to any kind of verified external reality.

That's why the 'Swann in Love' section in the first volume is so extraordinary - is it the only time we experience someone else's emotions from their own view?

And, as you say, Vesna, love, desire and suffering take centre stage... which is the case in so much literature, that it's almost its own tradition.

Daryl wrote: "I’m seeing more similarities between ‘Marcel’ and past characters"

Oh, I love that comparison to Aunt Leonie - I hadn't noticed that before.

I still haven't started, btw, but will catch up at some point.

I’m now seeing why this section is called the prisoner. I find it interesting that ‘Marcel’ is worried that Albertine might think that she is imprisoned when in fact it can be said the same thing about him; being in this sort of relationship and constantly having obsessive thoughts.

Nice - the different forms that imprisonment might take in this book.

I'm finally making a start on this...

It's striking how even the opening of The Prisoner circles back to the first volume with 'Marcel' recalling the night his mother slept in his room, a memory that comes back with Albertine sleeping down the hall. It's almost like Albertine is a miniature of the madeleine, bringing back the past. It's quite Freudian too, this layering of mother and lover.

After loving this volume the first time, I'm finding it difficult to reread: as others have said, 'Marcel's' vacillations are so over the top with hairpin bends within the same sentence. The claustrophobia is part of the relationship but it feels so circular as if the book has stalled.

We've raised this before but what does everyone make of 'Marcel's' paranoia about lesbians? 'Whatever city she found herself in, she had no need to look for temptation, for the evil was not in Albertine alone, but in other women, for whom every chance of pleasure was worth taking.' Definitely Eve syndrome here!

This was interesting and speaks back to Vesna 's point about suffering as a component of love:

'My jealousy sprang from images, its purpose was suffering; it did not derive from any probability.' This is presumably the post-analysis of 'Marcel', not his feelings at the time.

'Lying is the most necessary means of self-preservation, and the most used. And yet it is the thing we are determined to expunge from the life of the woman we love.'

Going back to my own question about lesbianism, I wonder if it might reflect Proust 's fear his male lovers might leave him for women?

I’ve got about 80 pages left for the prisoner and it is definitely not my favourite compared to the others (maybe the weakest) and for me I think the reason is that there isn’t anything new with the storyline. With each book we met fascinating characters which kept me intrigued as we slowly form a full picture of their personalities whereas with this, nothing new came up with the reoccurring characters.

Later on, there is a conversation between ‘Marcel’, M de. Charlus and Brichot where they mention the (high) probability of someone being an ‘invert’/low probability of being ‘virtuous’ and that probably reflects Proust/‘Marcel’s own fear of being abandoned. But to me, it seems that the fear is more about bisexuality, not just lesbianism?, there are so many characters throughout the books that have been revealed to be attracted to both sexes (the number seems high to me), either way that possibility still creates paranoia/fear.

But on the other hand, it is interesting to realise that we only hear about ‘Marcel’s fear relating to Albertine’s possible lesbianism and not of infidelity with other men. 🤔

Daryl wrote: "nothing new came up with the reoccurring characters."

Daryl, you've passed this so not a spoiler for you but others beware! (view spoiler)[I guess they're starting to die though which isn't new but is a development, and a marker of life passing. The oblique mention of the death of Swann almost feels a bit disrespectful and I was sad to hear it was a painful death.

As well as the personal loss, there's also the cultural passing of the great age of Parisian salons. (hide spoiler)]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Daryl, you've passed this so not a spoiler for you but others beware! I guess they're starting to die though which isn't new but..."

(view spoiler)[ I too am still stuck on the casualness on Swann’s death, I really thought Proust would discuss this more in this book or the previous one but now I’m not so sure. It does somehow feel like a new age is coming with all the deaths being announced, or maybe because I know we are near the end of the volumes and thus the story. (hide spoiler)]

Another thought I had was why Proust wrote ‘Marcel’ as heterosexual. We can presume that Proust is writing about himself in many occasions, drawing inspirations from his real life and also not giving our narrator a name which readers automatically refer to him as ‘Marcel’. Even though we know that Proust never came out but according to close circles, he had relationships with men. Maybe this is just a creative choice and I’m over-analysing again but I did think perhaps ‘Marcel' was closeted or even bisexual (with all those characters being revealed as bisexuals), the fact that ‘Marcel’ is so knowledgeable on homosexual’s relationship and identity made me think. I understand this ‘knowledge’ is coming from Proust himself through to ‘Marcel’, am I alone on this? Anyone else has any thoughts?

I guess your question depends on how we, as individual readers, understand the relationship between the narrator 'Marcel' and the author Marcel Proust. Personally, I don't read this as autofiction and think Proust is writing fiction and not autobiography, however much he might be drawing on his family and settings which he knew.

While homosexuality wasn't illegal in France at this time, it did sit outside concepts of heteronormativity. I find the book's approach dualistic and complicated: on one hand there is the disturbing use of words like 'inverts' yet, on the other, there's a sort of continuity between relationships regardless of how they might be characterised. I mean, Swann suffers in his straight relationship with Odette, almost a precursor to the other fraught relationships we see later. Jealousy, obsession, compulsion seem to haunt all the pairings regardless of their sexual categorisation.

I wonder if 'Marcel' had been overtly gay whether the book would have been pigeon-holed as a 'gay novel' and thus limited. Whereas I feel that this way 'Marcel' can comment on love and society with a wider lens.

It's interesting thinking about this in relation to Orlando which is 1928.

The term ‘Inversion’ was new to me until this novel and led me to do a little research to find out it’s a theory. Some more research led me to a French homosexual magazine during that time named Inversions that focused on the theme of homosexuality.

https://beinecke.library.yale.edu/art....

It is also interesting to see how successful Orlando was on publication especially that one of the core theme is the fluidity of sexuality and gender. I couldn’t find info on what the initial reception was for Proust’s novels since it dealt with homosexuality, something that obviously wasn't normative at that time as we know.

H. Havelock Ellis was using the term in 1897 in his Sexual Inversion though I think he only applied it to men as there was still that Victorian hangover, literally from Queen Victoria who couldn't believe in sexual love between women!

Great catch with that magazine.

Nigeyb posted some interesting information on why Orlando seems to have escaped censure while The Well of Loneliness published the same year, 1928, was banned for obscenity: thread here https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Great, thank you!

I understand the last three volumes are unpolished as we have discussed but is anyone else noticing that there are moments where certain lines are repeated differently? I’m on the fugitive chapter 2 and this is an example “To appreciate the exact phenomenon as it occurs in each household, I must read this article not as an author but as one of the other readers of the newspaper... Thus in order to read it I must for a moment stop being its author and become an ordinary reader of the newspaper.” There have been other instances in the prisoner as well, these patterns stood out and wondered if anyone else realised lol? I’m thinking it must be editing after Proust's death.

Also, personally volume 5 is my least favourite. I think this could have been cut down massively, it was so repetitive and even chapter 1 in the fugitive was a chore to get through! The prisoner could have been cut in half and add that to volume 4 as it deals with similar themes.

Don’t click if you are not ahead :) (view spoiler)[we have been wondering if Albertine’s infidelity is real or not and after chapter 1 I was leaning more towards that she was (but not totally convinced), But now learning that Odette has remarried to Forcheville :O kinda confirms that Swann’s jealousy was justified? Which makes me question whether ‘Marcel’s jealousy is too since we have seen similarity between those two characters, if we believe that Proust wrote this intentionally. (hide spoiler)]

I haven't started my reread of The Fugitive yet but will look out for some of the points you've raised here.

Jealousy seems such a self-created thing - especially the kind of internalized, fantasised jealousy we witness in Swann and Marcel. But I'll hold off till I'm in the book.

Apologies for being slow on this (I've been moving apartments!), am back to The Fugitive now.

I had to take a long break just before finishing The Captive in late September. Wanted to resume it last night only to discover that I lost all my notes and quotations. Rereading it all over again because I loved so many passages. Hopefully would be turning to The Fugitive after this weekend.

Glad I'm not alone in being late, Vesna!

Even though the vacillations and circularity of 'Marcel's' thoughts can be frustrating, this volume also seems quintessential Proust to me so it's not worth hurrying over.

I'll probably finish The Fugitive tonight. Lots of drama and angst, with some shocking developments in the plot, something that Proust isn't much interested in, supposedly! But, as usual, it's the effect on Marcel's interiority that is the real subject.

There are some important statements in this volume such as the expression of how we each have multiple selves.

Also there's a sense of coming full circle rather than making linear progression: (view spoiler)[St Loup's marriage to Gilberte inevitably recalls Swann and Odette in vol. 1 (hide spoiler)] And a sense of Marcel coming into a knowledge that will be his final volume.

How's everyone getting on with this?

I've started the final volume and am posting on the relevant thrread.

Roman Clodia wrote: "How's everyone getting on with this?

I've started the final volume and am posting on the relevant thrread."

So sorry for my recent absence here. I haven't had a chance to return to our Proust nor to check GR until now. Next week is the Thanksgiving Holiday in the states and it will give me a reprieve to finish The Captive and most of The Fugitive. I so much miss our reading (and also want to get to Pym) but the hectic month at work constantly kept getting in the way.

Don't worry, Vesna, the threads and we will still be here when life calms down a bit for you. I sympathise, having also had a busy couple of months where reading had to take second place.