The Debate Club discussion

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I think it definitely is. There are many people who physically can’t handle pregnancy, or just really don’t want to but still want children who they’re related to

I would say the concept of surrogacy is ethical and beautiful, however there are issues that arise in the process. For example, occasionally if the surrogate's baby is diagnosed with down syndrome or similar disorders, the parents will back out of the contract and the surrogate will be responsible for the child.

i think that surrogacy is definitely ethical, unless someone is forced into a situation they never wanted. @tessie i honestly don't think the parents should be allowed to force the surrogate to be responsible for the child just because they don't want it anymore, that's just extremely unfair because she never signed up for that, she was only willing to carry the child for you. in the end it's still your child, you should be responsible.

yes! sai i literally could not have put it better

Sai :) wrote: "i think that surrogacy is definitely ethical, unless someone is forced into a situation they never wanted. @tessie i honestly don't think the parents should be allowed to force the surrogate to be ..."

Yes exactly!

i know a couple who struggled with fertility issues, including multiple miscarriages, for years, now theyre both about 40 and just had a baby girl two months ago through a surrogate, they're both so happy and i'm so happy for them <3

this is so interesting to me. i think surrogacy is a bit of a problematic topic because *some* people choose it for reasons related to eugenics. i also think there are some cases in which said surrogates are treated as vessels, and more impoverished women are taken advantage of sometimes. it also isnt required for health risks to be disclosed to surrogate mothers. if this is all avoided, then i think surrogacy is a beautiful thing.i am not anti surrogacy, i am pro moral surrogacy. i think many people against surrogacy are against it for reasons also tied back to eugenics, so its a very thin line.

can you explain the concern with eugenics to me? the bio parents/dna of the baby comes from the mother and father, not the surrogate, so i never realized that culd be a concern

ashh ³³ ᵈᵘ ᵈᵘ ᵈᵘ wrote: "can you explain the concern with eugenics to me? the bio parents/dna of the baby comes from the mother and father, not the surrogate, so i never realized that culd be a concern"

hi! i realize i may have misworded that-eugenics isnt the best word for what i meant. i meant that there are people who are anti-surrogacy for reasons of 'purity', religion, or naturalism. since all of these things have something to do with eugenics, i think thats why i misworded. i do realize that the majority of people who are anti-surrogacy are for the more objectively 'right' reasons, but i was trying to add nuance. i apologize for the confusion!

is see why people would want surrogates, or want to become a surrogate, but are there really enough laws protecting surrogates? i think that in some places? the parents can back out of a surrogacy agreement, even if the surrogate herself is already pregnant. now we have a women pregnant with a baby she didn’t want and had no intention of keeping. a lot of surrogates are also women who need money, and so were giving a baby to a woman we can’t support them.

I'm a surrogate baby!

I think it's ethical there are people who physically cannot handle carrying a child or they cannot conceive a child. As long as the surrogate is willing then I don't see why it would be the issue. It would suck though that the surrogate carries the baby then the parents decide "I don't want a baby" then the surrogate is screwed if they don't want a baby. They can always put it up for adoption but then they might feel guilty or something. Or they might feel obligated to keep the baby which can put stress on the person. I feel like the surrogate should be allowed to keep the baby once its born if they decide. I know that's controversial and all but the surrogate had to go through 9 months of hell she should be given the option if she feels that bond. It would suck for the parents but I feel like they should be understanding as well.

the surrogate should NOT be allowed to keep the baby unless the parents abandoned the baby and the surrogate chooses to adopt the baby, however there should be no preference toward the surrogate and she should go through all the usual legal procedures

ashh ³³ ᵈᵘ ᵈᵘ ᵈᵘ wrote: "the surrogate should NOT be allowed to keep the baby unless the parents abandoned the baby and the surrogate chooses to adopt the baby, however there should be no preference toward the surrogate an..."

definitely! like im pretty sure the main cause of surrogacy is infertility so that wouldnt even make sense

ashh ³³ ᵈᵘ ᵈᵘ ᵈᵘ wrote: "the surrogate should NOT be allowed to keep the baby unless the parents abandoned the baby and the surrogate chooses to adopt the baby, however there should be no preference toward the surrogate an..."

yes exactly!

Is there anyone who thinks Surrogacy isn't ethical?

fr lol

but everyone's open to their own opinions

I think surrogacy the idea of it is ethical, but if you want a devils advocate I can

pfft

…is that a yes or no 😭😭😭

Yessssss

We love a good devils advocate

idk I just thought it was funny :D

To begin, we must acknowledge the fact that the child of surrogacy is not always biologically the parents, it may be biologically the surrogate's or even a donor's depending on their contract.
That being said, this is why the surrogate can be given immediate custody and veto the contract. However if it is biologically related to the parents, they may be able to put the child on the surrogate regardless. unfortunately this happens both ways, either party vetoing the contract and leaving the opposing party in disarray. How is it fair to legalize something that may leave either party in loss?

The surrogate being separated from her child may even leave her feeling with a loss and possible depression at that loss, it may even be related to grief, which can affect a surrogate's entire life.
She may have consented to do so, but she was paid. Many women who become surrogates are financially unstable and do it for an income, as families may fund pregnancy cravings and other ways of living for the surrogate. This means that sometimes it's not fully consensual, because she didn't want to do it, she had to. If the parents stick their child on the surrogate who was doing this for financial aid, this could leave her in even worse state, having to provide for a child.

It can also be bad for children, ethically. There are currently millions of children in the foster care system, and surrogacy being an option leads to less adoption of children already born. This is unfair to the children already suffering in foster centers, especially when a void of contract could lead to another kid being sent to foster care!

Children born to surrogates typically are unnatural, strictly because it's the fertilized egg of another person, in most cases, and the unnatural ways this is done lead to more cases of stillborn babies and miscarriage. Children born to surrogates are also more likely to gain diseases including kidney failure and premature menopause, even cancer.

Surrogacy has little to no borders, meaning there are often international surrogates. International surrogacy has been known to overlap into child trafficking, both by laws, and that the children do occasionally get trafficked.

In conclusion, surrogacy is morally and legally unethical, and it commonly negatively impacts everyone involved, and even those who aren't.

that's actually a really good counter argument lol

Tessie wrote: "It can also be bad for children, ethically. There are currently millions of children in the foster care system, and surrogacy being an option leads to less adoption of children already born. This is unfair to the children already suffering in foster centers, especially when a void of contract could lead to another kid being sent to foster care!"

wait hold up you're making me think...this is such a good argument gah i might need to reconsider my position lol

I hate devils advocating so now I’m pretty proud of myself lol

I can see how it’s controversial. Millions of children need homes and adoption, but at the same time I do think surrogacy is a good thing. I’m not a fan of how certain celebrities use it just because they don’t want to carry their own kids, but several people struggling with infertility have found it healing.

I don't think surrogacy is ethical. Which is somewhat of a hot take considering I am prolife. One of my reasons being that most of the embryos are discarded or frozen. Also in the case of homosexual couples. (Which I know most people will probably disagree with but this is my view) When two people of the same sex have a child via surrogacy, that child is taken away from the only mother they have ever known as soon as they are born. Unlike adoption, which redeems an already broken situation, I believe surrogacy intentionally creates a broken situation in that circumstance.

i agree w everything but that last pint of yours bc that makes literally zero sense? some kids in adoption are also taken from their mothers what? some kids are put in foster care and stuff bc their mothers are abusive or can’t take care of them or some of their mothers are literally dead. a homosexual couple having a child via surrogacy vs a straight couple having one is virtually the same. i just don’t see the need to point that specific situation out.

I understand finding it unethical, but I think this is for all the wrong reasons. This disappointed me.

Faith do you have any sources talking about the fact that most embryos are discarded?
Do you realize that embryos being frozen means they are preserved and is GOOD?

quynh~vi! ᯓ★ (s.ia) wrote: "i agree w everything but that last pint of yours bc that makes literally zero sense? some kids in adoption are also taken from their mothers what? some kids are put in foster care and stuff bc thei..."

My point was that you are intentionally creating either a fatherless or a motherless child. Adoption is ideally for the purpose of redeeming an already broken situation, while surrogacy in the case of a homesexual couple, is creating a child with the purpose of removing it from its mother

Tessie wrote: "I understand finding it unethical, but I think this is for all the wrong reasons. This disappointed me."

I wasn't exactly expecting you to approve of my reasons lol

Tessie wrote: "Faith do you have any sources talking about the fact that most embryos are discarded?
Do you realize that embryos being frozen means they are preserved and is GOOD?"

https://howwebecameafamily.com/how-ma...
https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/ar...

Do these kind of help explain?

Faith wrote: "quynh~vi! ᯓ★ (s.ia) wrote: "i agree w everything but that last pint of yours bc that makes literally zero sense? some kids in adoption are also taken from their mothers what? some kids are put in f..."

surrogacy is like that in all cases, so not just a gay couple. and i see where you're coming from, but i don't believe it counts as taking a child away from its original mother, because to me your parents are who raise you, not who gave birth to you. i mean biologically it is the latter obviously, but morally (in my opinion) it's who raises you.

No, those both talk about ivf, not surrogacy, and while surrogacy often uses ivf, its not the actual surrogacy that’s ‘wasting embryos’ also being pro life is literally the opposite of anti surrogacy, surrogacy brings life. There would’ve been no embryos in the first place without it.

Faith you do realize that a ton of surrogacies are for straight couples unable to have children due to it not being safe for the mom right? Well over 50% of surrogacies involve heterosexual couples. So you are just going to deny all those people children? That doesn’t sound particularly pro life to me. It sounds rather selfish though

Faith wrote: "I don't think surrogacy is ethical. Which is somewhat of a hot take considering I am prolife. One of my reasons being that most of the embryos are discarded or frozen. Also in the case of homosexua..."

bro is arguing for all the wrong reasons

I think the idea of surrogacy is ethical because it allows people who can't have kids by themselves to have children. But we also have to be aware of all of the negative side effects that can come with it. So I think the idea of surrogacy is ethical but there can be a lot of consequences. For example, the surrogate will grow an attachment to that child growing inside of her and that will cause some psychological damage when the child is taken away to be with the parents, correct me if I'm wrong on this but I'm pretty sure there can be increased medical risks for the surrogate mother and the child. These negatives don't always happen so that's why I say surrogacy as a whole is ethical, but we have to be made aware of the negatives that can come with it.

@Syd, same.

Sydney wrote: "I think the idea of surrogacy is ethical because it allows people who can't have kids by themselves to have children. But we also have to be aware of all of the negative side effects that can come ..."

couldn't have said it better!

Me has learned new info hehe.

I'd also say since I'm pro-life that the discarding of embryos (when they use IVF) is unethical but that doesn't happen EVERY time surrogacy through IVF is performed

so to say surrogacy is unethical because they discard embryos is very ignorant because 1. Surrogacy doesn't have to use IVF every time. 2. The parents don't choose to discard the embryos every time.

So I still have the same view as before, I was just adding I believe when surrogacy leads to the discarding of embryos then that's where it's unethical but again that doesn't happen every time. Surrogacy as a whole is still ethical.

Sydney wrote: "Me has learned new info hehe.

I'd also say since I'm pro-life that the discarding of embryos (when they use IVF) is unethical but that doesn't happen EVERY time surrogacy through IVF is performed..."

You don't have to agree with my pro-life standpoint, I was just saying in what circumstances I think its bad

lol honestly i've done this before too