Jane Austen discussion

Where do we begin......

Personally, I think the epistolary structure of the novella lends itself to Lady Susan's predatory nature and 'wickedness.' I loved the letters, back and forth, setting up the plot and the telling the reader what was afoot. I read this aloud to my wife (also a 'Susan') whilst walking over several mornings; drawing many an arched eyebrow from other walkers! Cheers! Chris

Christopher wrote: "Personally, I think the epistolary structure of the novella lends itself to Lady Susan's predatory nature and 'wickedness.' I loved the letters, back and forth, setting up the plot and the telling..."

Impressive to be able to walk and read JA out loud!

I like the way the letters reveal the true nature of each character. Lady Susan writes these flattering letters to Mrs. Vernon, which is followed by a biting letter to Mrs. Johnson. And Mrs. Vernon's letters to her mother reveal another side to both Mrs. V., and Lady S. as seen through Mrs. V's eyes. It was a lot of fun.

Apropos,
I'm reading the Halperin bio which says of a neighbor, Mrs Lloyd, during the Steventon period:

'Mrs Lloyd's mother was the melodramatic Mrs. Craven, who was known to have treated her daughters brutally - beating, starving, and incarcerating... Jane Austen heard the well known story from the Lloyds, undoubtedly there is...more than a hint of Lady Craven in Lady Susan.'

P wrote: "Apropos,
I'm reading the Halperin bio which says of a neighbor, Mrs Lloyd, during the Steventon period:

'Mrs Lloyd's mother was the melodramatic Mrs. Craven, who was known to have treated her daug..."

WHOA, is that scary! Lady Susan is a horrible mother, but this woman sounds... well, craven. (Sorry for the pun!)

Was this the Lloyd family of the friend and later in-law of Austen? That was Martha, right?

If we can pretty much agree that Lady Susan is [almost:] the worst mother everrrrr..... does it beg to ask why. Austen 'grew up in the great age of caricature' and her brothers James and Henry in their writings warned 'against the excesses of sensibility in sentimental literature' [that Halperin bio again:] so the stage is set, she was young [18 they say:] and had a neighbor who'd been victimized by her own mother. So, is that why we get Lady Susan, the anti-sentimentalist? Perhaps. But what I most admire is that as awful as she may be she's a real person and there are no cobwebs in the prose.

Sarah wrote: "Was this the Lloyd family of the friend and later in-law of Austen? That was Martha, right?"

There is an incredible amount of second-wife-ing going on, and not all attributable to the perils of childbirth. Martha Lloyd was the second wife of Frank and Mary Lloyd was the second wife of James.

I highly recommend the Halperin bio to the curious. It's not new [84:] but it is chock full of just about everything Austen. 'Tho some of it may have been 'revised' by now I don't think that bothers me.

P wrote: "If we can pretty much agree that Lady Susan is [almost:] the worst mother everrrrr..... does it beg to ask why. Austen 'grew up in the great age of caricature' and her brothers James and Henry in t..."

I don't know that Lady Susan is as ever 'craven' and mean-spirited as the above referenced Mrs. Craven; but I can agree that Austen does provide a caricature of a mother at nowhere near her best. I wonder if the caricature of Lady Susan is really more of a caricature of the workings of 'good society' and the 'to-and-fro' of match-making and improving one's fortune through marriage; and not so much a caricature of motherhood, per se?

It is clear, through the letters, that Lady Susan certainly doesn't give a fig for the feelings of her daughter (i.e., P's anti-sentimentalist reference), and is only concerned with finding a man (either for herself, or her daughter) who will keep her in the lifestyle she desires. It is also clear that Austen wrote from example, so I must conclude that there was a woman (or women) in her social circle that lacked moral fortitude and must have intrigued the young author mightily. Very interesting topic! Cheers! Chris

OK, something hit me and I want to throw this out there.

Does anyone else think that if Lady Susan were transplanted to modern times, she would be one of those Jerry Springer guests stealing her daughter's man?

OMG that is so awful because it is so close to the mark, Rachel! Jane Austen is timeless!

I dunno Rachel. I think she is more a Jackie Collin's Hollywood wives kinda woman. The aging actress, mistress then 2nd wife of some poweful Hollywood producer seems more in Lady Susan's line.

Miss Austen is indeed timeless.

I think we all know a lady Susan, she pops up every where. Hollywood wives, fantastic Desperate House Wife character. She could even fit in with the Hilton's or the Kardashians (who ever or what ever they are).

Christopher, I agree that Lady Susan might not be a portrait of a horrid mother but rather a portait of a horrid woman! It's not that she doesn't love her daughter that is the point, but that she doesn't love anybody but herself. To call her self-centered and selfish is to not even come close to the mark. Was her time a selfish one which condoned her self-involvement? Is ours? Would Jerry Springer's show have flourished in the Regency era?

Lindz wrote: "I think we all know a lady Susan, she pops up every where. Hollywood wives, fantastic Desperate House Wife character. She could even fit in with the Hilton's or the Kardashians (who ever or what ..."

That totally fits Lady Susan, too-- instead of a new husband to support her, she's desperately pursuing her next reality show.

As for your question Karlyne, I don't know if either Regency or our society is more accepting of self-centered behavior. I think it might be that Austen's era was so rigidly operated with social protocol that there was not really any course of action for dealing with someone so two-faced, and that our era is so obsessed with the cult of celebrity that we EXPECT that self-involvement.

The "direct cut" was about as far as a "lady" could go in those days. Hmmm. Kind of reminds me of Auntie Em -- "Elmira Gulch, for 30 years I've wanted to tell you what I think of you, and now, because I'm a Christian woman, I can't!"
And, you're right about our expecting self-involvement; our surprise and even outrage when our celebrities (political, Hollywood, sports) show their true colors doesn't usually translate into making them less popular. Lady Susan, however, probably had a very hard time re-gaining her standing -- at least until she secured her second husband with all his attendant wealth!

Karlyne wrote: "Kind of reminds me of Auntie Em -- "Elmira Gulch, for 30 years I've wanted to tell you what I think of you, and now, ..."

I've always loved Auntie Em for that line alone. :)

Could there by any woman less like Lady Susan?!?

Karlyne wrote: "The "direct cut" was about as far as a "lady" could go in those days. Hmmm. Kind of reminds me of Auntie Em -- "Elmira Gulch, for 30 years I've wanted to tell you what I think of you, and now, be..."

Since we get the Lady Susan story through letters, we get pieces, right? It seems the bigger picture is that Susan has lost and probably may never regain connections with many people. She has little money and says that she has no place currently left to go -- in other words, to save money, she knows she has to live off somebody for periods of time. So it sounds like she has been cut and former friends have not been willing to put up with her excesses and shaky morality.

I wonder how society actually was during that time also -- for the social class this story depicts. I know many classes during earlier times would have seen people interdependent on each other. I think it would have been a "neighborly" situation and honesty and fair play would have been very important to friendships and connection. It seems if one of the group was deceptive, unreliable, and greedy, they would have been shunned in whatever way was possible socially.

I just picture with illness and death more common, for example, people often wound up being called upon to raise other people's children -- so you wanted to know the people you were around were not merely selfish creatures.

So what real means do you think Lady Susan had up her sleeve to impose this marriage to Sir James upon her daughter?

I think beyond the obvious fact that Lady Susan is Frederica's mother and only surviving parent, and, as was the case in that time, would have been due a lot of respect and obedience by her child, is the fear and apprehension that Frederica feels in her mother's presence. Lady Susan is a master hand at quelling every tiny gesture of independence that her daughter makes, which is why Frederica only runs away from school when she's sure that her mother is nowhere around to demoralize her. And I think Frederica, friendless and poor with nowhere to run but to a family far off, knows that when her mother is in the same room with her, she will give in to whatever Susan wants.

The very real threat of being cast off without any means of support and with the kind of damaged reputation that Lady Susan would be sure to supply could easily frighten a young girl into obedience -- especially when she's been bullied all of her life by her mother and is used to knuckling under. Old habits die hard!

Sarah wrote: "So what real means do you think Lady Susan had up her sleeve to impose this marriage to Sir James upon her daughter?"

I agree that Lady Susan wanted to use the marriage of Frederica and Sir James as a way to continue to control her daughter. But also I see as a way to control Sir James' money without giving up independence. With her daughter bullied and the son -in - law a fool, Lady Susan would have a base of operations and a pot of money for whatever nefarious schemes or socially inappropriate nonesense she could dream up. Afterall Mr. Mainwaring is still devoted inspite of his wife.

When you look at it in the context of Austen's major novels, Lady Susan is very much like other mothers who want their daughters - or sons - to "marry up". Mrs. Bennet was ready to push Elizabeth in to a marriage with Mr. Collins, Sir Thomas wanted Fanny to marry Crawford, and Mrs. Ferrars has picked out Miss Morton for Edward.
Lady Susan knows that Frederica must marry - it seems she doesn't have a large fortune, and her maintenance would fall upon Lady Susan (or some generous relation) if she remained single.

janetility.com

The other parents or guardians may have wanted a good marriage for the young person, but were they going about it in quite the same way as Susan? And knowing the outcome of the Lady Susan story, that does set her apart just a little from those other parents mentioned.

Lady Susan was different in that she was a very young widow. The other parents that J. mentions were not "on the market" themselves. I think Lady Susan is what we call a "cougar mom" today.

Jeannette wrote: "Lady Susan was different in that she was a very young widow. The other parents that J. mentions were not "on the market" themselves. I think Lady Susan is what we call a "cougar mom" today."

Lady Susan is DEFINITELY a cougar!!

A critic in my copy of the book says that Lady Susan is Jane Austen's only femme fatale, but in today's language she's definitely a cougar!

It always comes back to Jane Austen being timeless! :)

I heard someone mention that lately and I had no idea what they meant. Somebody said there is a show on tv with that name.

I am not much on watching tv normally watched by adults. What I mean is I tend to watch things like Shaun the Sheep and Myth Busters on regular television but no dramas or adult sitcoms really.

I just read an online article about cougar moms. Do you need a definition?

Sarah wrote: "The other parents or guardians may have wanted a good marriage for the young person, but were they going about it in quite the same way as Susan?

One major difference is that Frederica Vernon is the only "only child". The other mothers had only to consider placing one child in a good marriage - a well-placed daughter would be the best insurance that a widowed mother of limited means would have some place to go. This is not Lady Susan's predicament at present, but she gives the impression of one who keeps her options open.
I also compare her eagerness to pull off the Frederica/Sir James marriage to Mrs. Bennet's determination to have Elizabeth marry Mr. Collins. What we know of Sir James's character is that he is "silly" - he does not come off as stupid, occasionally malicious or toadying as Collins does. A marriage between Frederica and Sir James is not, IMHO, as cringeworthy as Elizabeth and Mr. Collins, and Mrs. Bennet's determination to pull it off is callous and selfish.
As Jeannette observes, the major difference between Lady Susan and the other mothers is that Lady Susan is, herself, of a marriageable age.

janetility.com

J. wrote: "Sarah wrote: "The other parents or guardians may have wanted a good marriage for the young person, but were they going about it in quite the same way as Susan?

One major difference is that Fred..."

I don't think that Austen intended to present Lady Susan as too run-of-the-mill. I also see more differences in the Lady Susan scenario than that she was of marriageable age. She is presented as having the appearance of a 25-year-old, and possibly she had a mindset even younger -- immaturity may have come into play with her decisions about herself, money, and family. If she believed herself to be the young, flirtatious girl maybe she had no reserve in marrying herself to the man she picked for her daughter.

She also seems to glory in the marriage competition -- beating out other competitors. And I can't forget that she also glories in stealing (or at least borrowing) married men too. All things considered, Susan makes quite a package.

Jeannette wrote: "I just read an online article about cougar moms. Do you need a definition?"

Sure, Jeannette :)

A cougar mom is a younger mom, like Lady Susan, recently divorced, who dresses and acts more like a "girlfriend" than a mother. She often flirts with and/or dates the younger men that should be attracted to her daughter. Maybe Demi Moore is a good example; Lady Susan certainly is. She was too young to retire to widowhood, (and too poor), and she used everything she "still" had to get herself a husband. She pretty much abandons Frederica to her sister-in-law's care.

And she detested her sister-in-law! Of course, she had no fondness for her daughter, either, so, by giving Frederica to her sister-in-law she gets rid of the daughter and encumbers the in-laws with her upkeep. Nice and neat!

Jeannette wrote: "A cougar mom is a younger mom, like Lady Susan, recently divorced, who dresses and acts more like a "girlfriend" than a mother. She often flirts with and/or dates the younger men that should be at..."

Ahh, cougars:) This terms makes me giggle.
My mother-in-law's a cougar.
Jeannette has summed up the term well Sarah.
Not all cougars are trying to get married by many do.
My mothing in law married a man last than 10 years older than her son, my husband of four years today:)
Cougars have been around forever.

Happy Anniversary, Sarah! Such a newlywed still! How are you going to celebrate??


(Your mother-in-law sounds scary..... Hope you don't mind my saying so.) :)

Yeah, mine is odd enough; I'm glad she never took up with younger men. Actually, I have to giggle over the whole idea.

But strangely enough, I just remembered that my adored grandmother did marry a man much younger than she was. Since she was a sweetie, though, I just can't call her a cougar!

Isn't it funny that society still condones the same behavior in men (like Tony Randall, or Mel Gibson, or Harrison Ford), but maybe it's only celebrities who can get away with it. Still, I wonder what the people talk about, when one of the spouses has no idea of the other's history, no shared experiences?

Take a look at this thread, message 4:

Discuss Lady Susan

J. makes the same comparison as you do.

Lady Susan was written when Jane Austen was young, and this is why you get the feeling that this book just doesn't compare with her other books.

Antia wrote: "Am I the only one who thought of the book Les liaisons dangereuses (by Choderlos de Laclos) while reading Lady Susan? I just checked it was published in 1782.. so maybe is not impossible Austen rea..."

I also compared Lady Susan to the Marquise and Frederica and Reginald to Cecile and Danceny. Since the Choderlos de Laclos book was published in the UK some years before Lady Susan was written, I suspect Jane Austen would have read it. The epistolary form was a very popular style for 18th century novelists; many of the "coming of age" novels were written in that manner, books that Jane Austen would have read, which may be why she opted for it. When we went to the Morgan in January, the "fairy copy" of Lady Susan was on exhibit - she did that in 1805, and then put it aside again and never revived the project. As many people know, Sense and Sensibility began as an epistolary novel called Elinor and Marianne, and was later reconstructed.

Thank God for deconstruction!! I would never have read S&S and had a good option of it if it had been written in letter format. The story and descriptions of places, people, and events would have been even more subtle. Could you imagine that?!?!

Letters are heavily used in Austen anyway. They were the main form of communication. P&P with Lizzie reading the letter Darcy wrote her after the proposal, I love that scene!

A letter used has plot devise is one thing, but a whole book of nothing but letters?!?!

It takes a really competent author to pull that off, most especially in this world of emails and texting.

Good point robin

Sarah wrote: "So what real means do you think Lady Susan had up her sleeve to impose this marriage to Sir James upon her daughter?"

It's clear that Frederica is terrified of her mother, a fear that goes beyond way beyond obedient respect. Lady Susan herself refers to punishing Frederica, and claims she needs to be harsh with her because she was indulged by her father (poor Frederica did know kindness from her father, and must have mourned him sincerely). I've been wondering how far this harshness went. I think that P's fascinating quote earlier in this thread:
the melodramatic Mrs. Craven, who was known to have treated her daughters brutally - beating, starving, and incarcerating
gives us a hint of this. Shudders Lady Susan's planned means seem to have been brutalising and terrifying Frederica into this marriage.

Lindz wrote: "Letters are heavily used in Austen anyway. They were the main form of communication. P&P with Lizzie reading the letter Darcy wrote her after the proposal, I love that scene!"

Right you are - and letters invariably communicate something that advances the plot. Darcy's letter is a real turning point in the information it gives about Wickham, and Mrs. Gardiner's letter outlines Darcy's involvement in getting Wickham and Lydia married; Frank Churchill's letter reveals his engagement to Jane Fairfax; when Catherine is at Northanger Abbey, the letters from James and Isabella track their breakup.
The letters also have the same distinctive style as the writer, and the writer's speech - Austen had a real gift for distinguishing among characters by their language style.

Let's not forget Wentworth's letter in Persuasion!

But Austen's dialog was so very good, too. The banter between Henry, his sister and Catherine during their long walks; the heartfelt conversations between Anne Elliot and Capt. Harville -- these revealed so much about who these people really were and how they felt.

Whew! Just finished Lady Susan (sorry for the late start on the discussion!). I had recently watched Valmont (with Annette Benning and Colin Firth) and I had to agree that there were some similarities with the movie and Lady Susan (sorry, did not read the actual novel). Although Lady Susan was open with Mrs. Johnson, I still felt that there was an element of mystery with her. Because the format was in letters, it did leave some work for the reader to create the setting and the world. It really is a toss-up as to whether Lady Susan was a really selfish person or if she was doing what she needed to do (her goal, to not live poor). I guess the difference with Frederica and Cecile is that Frederica was not on board with Lady Susan's plans!