Axis Mundi X discussion

this is what I blame this administration the most for. we know too much about PTSD now to pretend that we didn't know what to be prepared for. we have an epidemic on our hands that is only going to get worse as soldiers come home with inadequate mental health treatment. here is california they have closed tons of mental health clinics recently due to lack of funding. great timing.

we send billions of dollars over seas in aid... but we can't seem to put together a decent mental health coverage in this country... and our veterans are getting the worst of it.

it just makes me sick to my stomach.

What Bunny said. Might I suggest petitioning your local congress-critter as they are ultimately responsible for funding the VA. The VA beauracracy should be audited.

also, they should be made to wear bunny suits and dance the Hokey Pokey, but that's another story

heh heh. Is that a tight fitting bunny suit?

Here's something - you say the mental health facilities for returning soldiers are bad now, in the USA, in 2008. For the returning soldiers of WW1 and WW2 they were non-existent, and there were millions of returning soldiers, literally. Society may be fucked up now, but before it was a great deal worse. Here's something else - the enormous support we see in American society in general for your troops, so enormous that you have to be careful when opposing the war in Iraq not to sound like you're not supporting the Armed Forces - how come this total commitment doesn't translate into a general outcry about the treatment of soldiers like Mr Dwyer?

Indeed Koe....a great indictment of us, and the officials we elect.

take it further back... not like we haven't had flocks of war veterans since time immemorial. Of course, people were suffering from a general malaise which was pretty bad anyway... back when life was nasty, brutish and short.

Paul, it's much easier to yell at other people to be patriotic and to put a flag decal on your vehicle than it is to fix the Veteran's care.

For myself, ever since 9/11 I have transferred most of my charitable contributions from Environmental concerns to support for Firefighters widows/families, and to Veterans health care. The pandas are just going to have to look after themselves for a while.

Paul, what was the state of mental health care availability in general in the late 1940s? The 1920s? Certainly, there was less available to vets then than there is now. But the gross disparity between what is available to many and what is available to vets now is astounding.

I do PTSD work with three-year-olds. Perhaps we should treat people our country paid to kill, literally look someone else in the face and kill them, in the nebulous name of freedom, at least as well.

It's damn hard work to do, compounded by the fact that research on war-related PTSD and effective treatments is slim to none. Because really, aren't they freedom-defending superman heroes? How dare you suggest they may harbor any sort of mental illness. They don't get the common cold, you know. The common cold gets them. PTSD must be only for the weak, I'm sure, and our nation's army isn't weak, you commie slime.

Lisa - we do not pay our service men and women to kill. That is the definition of a mercenary.

Woops - who's commie slime? Would that be me? If so what's the problem?

I think that comparing the treatment of Vietnam Vets returning to America to the treatment of soldiers returning now is a gross exaggeration! People on the street arent throwing things at returning soldiers and calling them "baby killer"! Maybe they still don't get as much as far as resources as they should, but I'd be willing to bet it is still a damn sight better than the Vietnam Vets received, and from the general population they are getting a whole lot of love and understanding.

And, wow, Lisa...reign it back a bit, girl! No need for nasty name calling at the Brit!! Paul's a good guy, and entitled to his opinion, as are we all.

Sorry...every once in a while my sarcasm doesn't quite come through on the interwebs, eh? I wasn't actually calling anyone commie slime. I was mocking the national mindset that gets in the way of our military personnel having access to the mental health care they need, and prevents the research that needs to be done on how to effectively treat combat-related PTSD.

It's uncomfortable for us to have to think about what it is the military actually does, and how that might affect individual men and women doing that work. It's even more uncomfortable for the military to admit to the country that what we ask our men and women in the military to do is subject themselves to extreme trauma.

Exactly.

As always, you translated beautifully. :)

I read it as Lisa herself being the "commie slime" in question, as she's the one advocating for mental health care services being provided for our soldiers.

C'mon Lisa, you would only be "socialist slime", in my opinion. A Frenchy-pinko type of slime, like me here, with the bleeding heart, who thinks all Americans should have access to basic health care.

I am totally socialist slime. I just don't expect anyone who throws it at me as an epithet to get the subtle difference.

:)

And hoping I'm not too nitpicky here, but we don't ask our service personell to endure extreme trauma. They volunteer for the service. They know full well what will be expected of them. It's a subtle point, but absolutely necessary in understanding how and why are military functions the way it does, and why the troops are so committed to their mission.

No, Not Bill, I think a lot of people join up without any true understanding of what they are getting into. Certainly, when my brother-in-law joined the National Guard, he didn't know that would mean service outside the country. His unit was full of very young men just out of high school, most of whom had never been out of the state they lived in before.
They were ignorant small town boys, who joined up to make some extra money, not go to war.

My cousin Caleb was out of college when he joined the Air Force, but he was still very naive about combat. He was so gung ho to get over to Iraq he volunteered to be sent, not having any concept of what it would be like. He was appalled at what he experienced, and had to grow up fast. Thankfully, he came home safely.

Having lived thru the Vietnam War, all I can say is THANK GOD there is such a huge difference in the attitude towards returning soldiers. Vietnam vets were treated as pariahs. Present soldiers are embraced even by the most vehement anti-war members of our society.

I keep hoping, but the news always messes with my cloud!

I think that it is strange that a person would sign up to be a "soldier" and not think that their was any chance that they might have to do so. Ideally, no, but there is always the chance. My dad served in the National Guard for 25 years, just missing Vietnam. I don't think he ever expected NOT to see combat at some point, being a career soldier. The National Guard is not a special scholarship orgainization, it is the millitary. If you want to stay state side, join the Coast Guard and hope to not get the Florida Keys as your posting.

Maybe I'm too "black and white" about it, and I'm sorry if I offend. But, I have quite a few millitary family members and I think it is wrong to view joining up as just a way to make some extra money and get some college funds.

Amy, my dad was in the Army and served in Korea. My brother-in-law got sent to Kuwait for six months. Chris' father was in the Coast Guard. I have nothing but respect for the military.

But the Reserves, or National Guard, was presented as something you did to make extra money. One weekend a month, two weeks a year. Remember those ads?

I guess my own view of the role of the National Guard might be incorrect. I always thought of them as being our at home force - the folks who got called out to help in natural disasters, to do civil defense. I mean, George Bush joined the National Guard to AVOID Vietnam, not to go there. A lot of guys joined the National Guard for that reason. And it worked - they didn't get sent to Vietnam.

As for earning college funds, that used to be how joining the Army was presented in ads, too. Get money for college, and learn a career at the same time. If people used to have that perception, it was understandable. Certainly, everyone knows better, now, what joining the military means.

Well, you can be National Guard full time, not just one weekend a month etc. And, you are still a soldier, so thinking that there is no chance you'll go (especially after Desert Storm), is unusual to me...still.

By the way, I have a great deal of respect for millitary personel and the job they do. I just, again, think that being in the millitary makes you a soldier, and being a soldier means you may have to see combat. Hopefully not, but the chance is there. So, unless you are drafted, it is a hazzard you must expect.

I guess times have changed, sweetie...

I would think that the expectations during a time of war would be different than the expectations during peace.

I think Jackie's cousin Caleb's experience is more common, though. I know my cousins experienced similar wake up calls. Real war is not like the movies. Even the bravest of men can only take so many shells exploding beside their heads.

Tom Cruise actually made a decent movie about all of this called "Born on the Fourth of July". A fine performance (I know!). Directed by that master of subtlety Oliver Stone.

Oh, wow, that wasn't the Ghosts in the Nursery I was thinking of. There's a marvelous article that basically spawned the field of infant mental health that has that name. But that one looks fascinating.

My view on actual combat is that no matter how well-informed a person is, it's the kind of experience that you can't understand until you've been through it. I haven't, and I wouldn't presume to suggest I know how it would affect me to kill another person.

But, NB, we do ASK our military personnel to endure severe trauma. We don't force them, but we do ask it of them. They then agree to do it, and sign on the dotted line. For me, whether that is informed consent is questionable, because how can you impress upon someone what it might be like? But that's an opinion on my part.

Message 22 reminds me of that line from Airplane:

"They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into to...I say let them crash."

(Pssst, Dave, wait until tomorrow...he'll have to agree with you then! ;)

I'd like to point out one thing regarding G-Dubs NG experience. It wasn't like he peeled onions for four years or ran to Canada. Nor did he seek early discharge and keep his military records sealed like a recent presidential candidate. The guy was flying state of the art combat jet aircraft. That is not a picnic in the park by any means, that is dangerous work. Also, his unit could have been posted at anytime as it was. The man served and served well.

I'm confused, Not Bill. I understood that George Bush did not serve particularly well while in the National Guard.

While the authenticity of the memos is disputed, what is not is the fact that, From most accounts, Bush appears to have received preferential treatment to get into the Air National Guard and avoid the draft after he graduated from Yale University in 1968. He was initially regarded as a good pilot, but his performance faded over his final two years in the Guard and he was suspended from flight status. He did not fly for the remaining 18 months he served in the Guard, though he was obligated to do so.

And for significant chunks of time, Bush did not report for duty at all. His superiors took no action, and he was honorably discharged in 1973, six months before he should have been.


George W. Bush's military service, from Source Watch

I think we can all agree that war is a horrific experience that no one can anticipate when they sign up. And whatever a person's motivation for signing up, whether it's college scholarships, or job training, or a second job, or to actively serve in the military, no one knows how resilient he/she is until they've been under fire and come out the other side.

The government owes these people the care they need when they come home not in one piece, no matter the damage. If I were hurt on the job, my employer would be responsible for workman's comp. I don't think it's much of a stretch to expect the VA to offer something of the same to veterans.

My husband survived a different kind of war; he's a cancer survivor. And even after 2 1/2 years of being cancer-free, we still have some psychic bumps and bruises. Trauma doesn't just go away.

I'd like to see all the vets get the kind of care he received. For whatever reason, they thought they were making a deal to protect and serve their country, and their country should look after them now.

Don't be confused Jackie. The documents referred to in your post aren't just "disputed", they've been accurately exposed as absolute forgeries. Peoplee, including Dan Rather, found themselves out of work because of it.

"Appears" to have received preferential treatment is an opinion, nothing more. You know the saying: "Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one". That about sums it up.

The real pertinent fact is he served and was honorably dishcarged. And, when running for office, he opened up his military records. Kerry, to this day, still refuses to do so. Hmmmmmmmm, I wonder why?

first, most of the people decrying the sorry state of V.A. hospitals are the same ones demanding the whole nation's health care be taken over by the government. do any of you see a problem?

the soldiers death is a tragedy. but i'm convinced that most veterans are more mentally stable, or at least are better at dealing with their issues, than your average liberal arts major.

Varmint: "but i'm convinced that most veterans are more mentally stable, or at least are better at dealing with their issues, than your average liberal arts major.

Based on what, Varmint?

from the department of defense...

"The Army Suicide Event Report, which tracks suicide attempts and completions and the factors involved, showed that in 2006 there were 99 suicides within the Army, 30 of which occurred in Iraq or Afghanistan. This is an increase from 87 suicides in 2005 and 67 in 2004.
According to the report, the Army’s suicide rate for 2006 was 17.3 suicides per 100,000 soldiers. This compares to the overall U.S. population rate, for the same age and gender group, of roughly 19 suicides per 100,000 people."


it should also be noted that while there has been an increase from 04 to 05. the rate is actually lower since the war began than it was in the 90s.

suicide is described as the second leading cause of death on college campuses. and most seem to think that psychiatry and dentistry majors have the highest incidence. but after that statistics are hard to come by.

Well, first of all, in current-combat military terms, 2006 was a long time ago. It was kind of the beginning of the major deployment of troops.

The only person I know personally who has been in Iraq with the US military hadn't come home yet in 2006.

Percentage rate should always be considered in terms of overall base rate. We didn't have many in the military in the 90s.

Military underreporting of suicide (or misreporting..."weapons misfire" anyone?) is something that has come up repeatedly when discussing the stats you're reporting, V. The thing is, I'm pretty sure we all know that the military under-reports combat stress. Just like private colleges do with rape and drug use stats (I'm pretty nonpartisan when it comes to expecting people to cover their own asses). I wouldn't expect ROTC to be a high suicide group on campus, because the ones I worry about most are long gone from campus.

(For the record, there are no "psychiatry majors", as it's a med school specialty, not an undergraduate major. Dentistry, too, is not a 'major'. So there's simply no way to compare those two grad-student/med-student groups with the general college undergraduate population without a major statistical confound. Dunno where you got that info, but they were seriously misinformed as to how stats work.)

As a purple heart recipient, and can contribute a double-sided point of view here. I think I need to break this down into two separate responses.



1) Anyone that joins any military service (regardless of the catchy commercials) and thinks that they will be given money for school or a date, without giving anything in return. Probably shouldn't be given a gun. I think it displays a lack of judgment, and possibly a bit delusional. I mean no personal offense to previous posters.



As an E-5 I had a few "Reservist" that were folded into my squad. Most of them were top notch and I am proud to have served with them. There were (3) that should have never put the uniform on. They were a constant pain in the ass, and a real liability in the field. I had to assign marines to babysitting duty every time we went out. Doing so compromises the rest of the squad and reduces our effectiveness. Ultimately I had them removed from combat operations and assigned to administrative duties. (Getting the platoon beans bullets and band-aids)



The foundation to our military is a dedicated willing well-trained force. At the end of the day I would say 95% of service members are willing and able to fulfill their obligations. But there is always going to be that 5% that just doesn't belong. I have found (through observation) that that 5% usually had some childhood fantasy about being a war hero, or Rambo. (As do many young service members) The difference between good service member and a liability is, the good service member looses that mentality where as the 5% hold on to, and become disgruntled when reality doesn't pan out the way "they" envisioned it.





2) PTSD: There is nothing that will prepare anyone for what one will experience in combat. You can explain, and prepare all you want, it means nothing until that first bullet flies past your head. For me personally, the most stressful, situation was the welfare of my marines. As a NCO, they are my responsibility. They rely on me to lead them through some of the most hostile situation imaginable (urban warfare). The second most stressful situation is civilian casualties. Our military wields the most impressive and destructive tools of warfare. We spend massive amounts of time sweat and blood to ensure we can utilize these tools with precision. However again, the best-laid plans don't mean anything in a real world situation.



Thanksgiving 2004, someone of obvious genus decided that this would be a good time for the second assault on Falluja (sp?) My Unit was assigned to secure 8 schools, and 3 hospitals. My squad was assigned to secure a hospital. After a hairy thrust into the city our transport stopped and disembarked us about 1/2 a mile from my objective. “You're riding in on your boots gents,” shouts the vehicle commander. (vehicles are too vulnerable inn Urban situations) We moved about 30 meters when the insurgents moved in against us. Going 2by2's we moved up the streets; taking fire from rooftops, windows, doorways, dumpsters, a few RPG's, some IED's. We push on.



About 10 feet after the hospital came into view (4 blocks away) a large group of women flooded out onto the street from a side alley. Our weapons trained in on them, not one of my marines fired. Even when the AK47 reported. Women started falling, I am not too ashamed to admit that I froze for what seemed like hours. I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. The (3) insurgents were shooting through their own human shield. We were exposed in the intersection, no cover in the immediate area. My marines, or the women. Out of the (approx.15) women I think (3) were left after the fire fight. (Recounting this is making me physically ill). We had to push on. Our corpsman fixed up two wounded (Lcpl. Joshua Garrison "skipper" & PVT. Steven Lyburger.)



We pushed on toward the Hospital. (2) wounded in tow. Some more minor encounters with insurgents. Once we arrived at the hospital, I realized there was no way my (7) remaining marines could effectively secure the hospital square. I ordered my marines into a hasty defense to hold 3 of 7 streets leading to the hospital quad. Called in the situation to task force wolf pack and requested another squad and medivac for my 2 wounded.



The flood begins, with a second support squad enroute, and only 3 approach avenues covered insurgents zeroed in on our position, exploiting our exposed dead zones (areas that are out of view). Being effectively surrounded and quickly running through our ammunition, I pulled my marines back further into a more secure fighting position. The ambulance bay was a godsend. Thick concrete walls and a great vantage point to lay down fire in a 360. I had requested mortar support, but it was denied because of the civilian population. Instead we gained some air support, 2 cobra helos. We were able to hold (I say hold in the loosest possible way) our little corner of the hospital. Iraqi Doctors gave further aid to skip and Steve. The Calvary arrived and we started to push the insurgents back and redeploy around the quad.



After placing my marines, I linked up with the Sgt. from the other squad. I never learned his name, I was debriefing him on the situation... then I woke up in Baghdad. From what I was told, there were 2 men on the roof of the hospital that had launched RPG's. The other Sgt. was KIA. I am beyond proud of the marines that fought and died for that hospital in Falluja that day. Protecting the doctors so they could continue to care for their patients. I am really proud of my assistant squad leader Cpl. Sean Graham, who had taken over the defense of the hospital in the absence of the 2 Sgt.





I have been told that I act differently today than I did before. But how does one experience combat and not change? Do I suffer from PTSD..? I don't know. I have always been an angry demanding guy, am I more so today? Again I don't know. I do know, that I will never forget the things I have done; I will never forget those women. I will never forget the marines I have lost, the pain I have felt, and continue to feel.



I am no fan of the VA either. I do feel the need to be fair, the actual people there do try, but they are forced to work through the same paper fortress as the vet's are. The system is broken and really needs to be fixed.

Jeez, Nick. Wow. I'm in tears here.
What a horrifying experience you barely lived through. See, this is why I get so angry with the lack of support for our soldiers, getting sent into these situations, doing the best they can in a guerilla-type war, and then getting crappy care from the VA.
And I know we could do so much better - the good will is there. I know if there were a popular vote, soldiers would have all the funding they needed.
No wonder you feel like launching stuff into orbit!

Add me to the number of those reaching for a Kleenex.

What Ko said.

Outstanding after action report their Nick, and thanks for sharing your personal perspective on what it's like to have to recount such, not to mention carrying that forward in just living day to day.

Wow. Just...wow.

That's a moving story, and an amazing perspective. Thank you.

Ditto,Thank You Nick and all other veterans you make it possible for the rest of us to live our lives!you have my respect sarge!!

I'm glad you survived, Nick. And thank you so much for sharing that story with us. I'm sure it can't be an easy thing to talk about. I've heard many other stories about the brutal way that the insurgents there fight, so I'm not surprised about the use of 'human shields'. Sounds like you did an amazing job and are well deserving of that purple heart. I wish the other thing you received upon coming home was adequate care.

I like how you called it a paper fortress. That pretty much says it all.

Thanks for serving, sir. You totally rocked it.