Jane Austen discussion

Chapters 23 and 24 in my edition:

Anne and Harville discuss the constancy of love. Cpt. W writes THE LETTER. Anne is escorted by Charles Musgrove who is to going off to buy a new gun. They meet Cpt. W in the street. Charles hands Anne off and leaves to complete his shopping. Anne and Cpt. W finally talk. Sir Walter has his card party. Anne and Cpt. W announce their engagement. William Elliot leaves Bath as does Mrs. Clay. Cpt. W helps Mrs. Smith recover her husband's money.

Jane Austen heavily rewrote the ending this novel. Here is a link to the JASNA site with information about the original canceled chapters: http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/pca...

Conclusions reached by Anne? New factors in determining social consequence and the social order?

Discuss!

The Letter!!!!!!

Yes the all consuming all important letter.

I read the canceled chapters from the JASNA link. Very interesting change. That is, in my thinking, it's really rather dull - the original chapters I mean - they're what you'd find in most any ordinary Romance.

Which really highlights the striking difference of the chapters we know. From the original's 'yeah, yeah, yeah' to a these, a jaw-dropping 'Who-oaaaa'.

Definitely, as Penny wrote:

"The Letter!!!!!!"

Penny wrote: "The Letter!!!!!!"

XD I KNEW we would have a post like that in this final section! Isn't THE LETTER just TOO TOO perfect?

Robin wrote: "I read the canceled chapters from the JASNA link. Very interesting change. That is, in my thinking, it's really rather dull - the original chapters I mean - they're what you'd find in most any or..."

I agree with you Robin. The original is almost like her notes or something. It's very this and that, humma, humma. The published version is so different and powerful. Interesting to see how her thoughts developed and were articulated.

Megan wrote: "...Interesting to see how (Jane's) thoughts developed and were articulated. "

Gives hope to the rest of us writers, huh? If she could write something so hum-drum, and edit it to what we know now ... maybe we could do that too!

:D

Yes, it had a different feel to the final chapter. It felt rushed somehow, that is just my impression. There is no mention of the letter, I thought that told Wentworth's feelings much more deeply than not even including it in the original version.

Robin wrote: "Yes, it had a different feel to the final chapter. It felt rushed somehow, that is just my impression. There is no mention of the letter, I thought that told Wentworth's feelings much more deeply ..."

So true. The Letter is Wentworth in a nutshell - his whole personality is laid bare right there.

It is very hard to imagine the book without his letter just as it is hard to imagine the idea we all have of Wentworth now without the self-definition he gives of himself with that letter.

Too perfect? No, I didn't think so - when I read it I really wished someone would write ME a letter like that!!

I haven't seen the draft that you're discussing, I'll have to check it out - seems interesting that what for me was the highlight of the book wasn't there originally.

Em, the website we are talking about is on Megan's message 1.

Rachel wrote: "Penny wrote: "The Letter!!!!!!"

XD I KNEW we would have a post like that in this final section! Isn't THE LETTER just TOO TOO perfect?"

:P, that is more that enough.

It really is too much, I don't think I've ever read anything more romantic.

I had not read those chapters before, there was a moment I thought that editors came to be for a reson, I'm no writer, I can't imagine how many times something gets rewritten before others get to see it.

Many renditions and renderings. As you can see by the rewrite of Austens last chapter if that is any indication.

I love the conversation between Harville and Anne about the constancy of love. The first time I read Harville’s words, I thought, “I wish men really felt like this,” or could express themselves so well. Especially when my own naval man came home and gave me a smile, a kiss and a glad to be home squeeze. Austen doesn’t really know men was my assessment.
Then I read Shaunti Feldhahn’s For Women Only:What You Need to Know about the Innner Lives of Men It’s a book that surveyed thousands of men about life, love and relationships. The survey ends with a question: What’s the one thing you would like your wife to know? The answer: How much I love her.

"Ah!" cried Captain Harville, in a tone of strong feeling, "if I could but make you comprehend what a man suffers when he takes a last look at his wife and children, and watches the boat that he has sent them off in, as long as it is in sight, and then turns away and says, 'God knows whether we ever meet again!' And then, if I could convey to you the glow of his soul when he does see them again; when, coming back after a twelvemonth's absence, perhaps, and obliged to put into another port, he calculates how soon it be possible to get them there, pretending to deceive himself, and saying, 'They cannot be here till such a day,' but all the while hoping for them twelve hours sooner, and seeing them arrive at last, as if Heaven had given them wings, by many hours sooner still! If I could explain to you all this, and all that a man can bear and do, and glories to do, for the sake of these treasures of his existence! I speak, you know, only of such men as have hearts!" pressing his own with emotion.


Now I get my husband and my respect for Austen is even greater. Remind me to draw and quarter the next blogger who calls Austen the queen of chick lit.

Lani, I think men tend to do things for their wives by way of expressing their love, or my husband gives me a wink, that makes me feel good. It is all in the way they express themselves, be it hugs, so we should be grateful that they express themselves in whatever way or fashion.

I loved that letter! The scene is so romantic.

As for men vs women, we can't always generalize. My husband is the romantic one in our house. He constantly leaves me little notes, brings me home treats, buys me cards and flowers... I'm the one that thinks there is nothing special about birthdays and that kind of thing. lol He's my inspiration.

Wow, Lee, Hold onto that man of yours. I was just stating and what we have been saying is that men that Jane Austen wrote about were very romantic, and what Lani wrote above my post was very apt. I am in no way generalizing, men show affection in different ways, that is all.

Robin wrote: "Wow, Lee, Hold onto that man of yours. I was just stating and what we have been saying is that men that Jane Austen wrote about were very romantic, and what Lani wrote above my post was very apt. ..."

Oh, I didn't mean any offense. I think I was agreeing more than disagreeing. I read that book and showed it to some male friends of mine. It obviously shares a lot of truth but there was a sort of... "poor man can't control himself and really it's the woman's job to be more attractive, interesting, sensual, respectful, accommodating, and so on" feeling that bothered me and them. I don't think they want to be seen in that light in those areas and yet they appreciated being able to share how much they do love their wives and how they may not be showing it in ways she may recognize.

There are exceptions to every rule. I know a very "manly" man with a happy marriage and five children who cries at commercials on TV. My Pastor will cry over a football game. lol

I was only thinking that just like it isn't right to classify Jane's books as being just for women or fluff fiction, it isn't right to generalize that men aren't as romantic as Austen's characters because some of them are.

Then again, part of reading a great romance is escape as well. It may be that because we don't see that level of romance on a daily basis that we love to read those stories because many of us long for our prince charming on a white horse. I don't know.

I really didn't mean any offense though. I just thought it was an interesting discussion and also had just gotten a really lovely note from my husband on my nightstand. He wanted me to see it when I first woke up in the morning. So I had his romantic tendencies fresh in my mind. You are totally right though, men and women show their love in so many different ways. Another great book is The Five Love Languages: How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate. I like that one because it talks about the many different ways people express love.

Please forgive me for any misunderstanding. I think you all do a fabulous job and I love the discussions.

I wasn't taking offense. It is sweet that your husband does those things for you. I was just expressing that for some men it is candle light and romance, and for others its doing stuff around the house that the wife doesn't like to do and the man pitches in. It is just different ways that people express love. And of course Austen is not chick literature, but going by all the women that are in this group it does strike a chord in us, and we all want romance, be it in books, or in relationships. Continue posting you make valid points, and you do have alot to offer. No worries.

Robin wrote: "It is just different ways that people express love."

In the book by Shaunti Feldhahn that Lani mentioned above, apparently what men wish their wives/significant others knew most of all was how much they love them.

It strikes me tonight that what most of us women want -- well, those of us particularly in this group -- is to be told how they feel ... most especially if it's phrased in a Letter like the one we're all drooling over ....

I know he obviously wrote from his heart, when I saw the film I got caught up in the romanticism of it, and Anne knew then and there that she did not make a mistake in waiting and eventually getting Wentworth in the end.

The letter is not only romantic, but bold too. Bold for his time or for all time, right? And isn't that who we think Wentworth would be from very early in the book? He was an honest gentleman who would take the step and finally declare it in writing -- no more misunderstandings, just find out the truth, write the letter. When Jane rewrote these two chapters, she certainly did him justice, really bringing his character to the resolution he deserved.

Sorry
I didn't mean to throw a stink bomb into the discussion. I just meant that most men (in my experience) are not as articulate as Cpt H or Cpt W's Letter. But most men "feel" that deeply. And I commend Ms. Austen for being perceptive enough to see it.

Lani wrote: "Sorry
I didn't mean to throw a stink bomb into the discussion. I just meant that most men (in my experience) are not as articulate as Cpt H or Cpt W's Letter. But most men "feel" that deeply. And ..."

I don't think you threw a stink bomb. I think you gave us a lot to think about with how our men show (or don't show) love. They are a complicated lot and I'm so thankful for them - warts and all. :o)

I love the points everyone has made--romance in real life is always a happy thing to hear about. :)

The idea that Wentworth show who he is in The Letter is one I wholeheartedly agree with. He's bold, like Sarah said, but passionate and articulate as well.

Sarah wrote: "The letter is not only romantic, but bold too. Bold for his time or for all time, right? And isn't that who we think Wentworth would be from very early in the book? He was an honest gentleman who would take the step and finally declare it in writing -- no more misunderstandings, just find out the truth, write the letter. "

I agree, Sarah, it does tell us so much about Wentworth. His character shows openness without incivility; boldness but with due restraint. Such a contrast with the slyness of Mr Elliot.

Rachel wrote: "Penny wrote: "The Letter!!!!!!"

XD I KNEW we would have a post like that in this final section! Isn't THE LETTER just TOO TOO perfect?"

All I can say is, "Ahhhhh."

me, too, such openness is hard to find and the way in which while he was writing the letter was so secretive, but when he went to talk to Mr. Croft he left it for Anne to find, with her name on the envelope.

Hey! I didn't join in for 4 days (because of migraine) and I missed all this! So let me get exicted,
The Letter!!!!!! It just makes you melt.

Few important factors I feel worth mentioning,

1. Sir Walter's change of perspective on Wentworth is interesting. Sir Walter must now learn, not only live more moderately but also think more moderately.

2. The change in the social order - Earlier it's the lesser rank of Wentworth prevented Anne from marrying him because it wasn't an appropriate match in the eyes of the family, now it's not only the ideas which has changed but also the social order. Captain Wentworth is rich and The Elliot's are rather humble.

Also "The news of his cousins Anne's engagement burst on Mr Elliot most unexpectedly" I can imagine the look! :D

Sarah wrote: "The letter is not only romantic, but bold too. Bold for his time or for all time, right? And isn't that who we think Wentworth would be from very early in the book? He was an honest gentleman wh..."

Absulately! Till you read the letter, it's difficult to imagine Wentworth as such a romantic regarding his rather ‘masculine’ profession. ;)

Shayne wrote: "Sarah wrote: "The letter is not only romantic, but bold too. Bold for his time or for all time, right? And isn't that who we think Wentworth would be from very early in the book? He was an hones..."
Yes, I think the letter tells us a lot about both Wentworth and Anne. I like to contrast this with Anne's misgivings about Mr. Elliot, and how she felt there was something not quite right about him--not enough emotional boldness and never saying the "wrong" thing.

Yes, Susan, I do really like Anne's comment about Elliot never saying the wrong thing. I think they even emphasize that in the earlier movie. I think that seems to be such an impressive thing about Anne that she discerns that there are things and people in life that are just "too" perfect, as to actually be far from perfect. That is a hard thing for anyone to learn and some people don't seem to learn it all.

Even if you think the veneer or outer person is perfect, in Elliot's case he was charming at first, and later when Anne found out more of his character from Mrs. Smith, then she realized that people are always not what they seem. Like the saying goes Looks can be deceiving.

Robin wrote: "Even if you think the veneer or outer person is perfect, in Elliot's case he was charming at first, and later when Anne found out more of his character from Mrs. Smith, then she realized that peopl..."

I think she began to realize he was phony. Someone who never says the wrong thing can also just be annoying. It's like eating only dessert. It may be yummy for a while, but you end up wanting something substantial pretty quickly.

It is like self-editing, eventually the person who never says the wrong thing , probably ends up saying something wrong. As humans we sometimes make mistakes. Elliot seemed too good to be true, and there is nothing wrong with eating dessert, but you can't survive just on that. Then you need a real meal, but as far as chocolate goes. . .LOL

I like that comparison Lee and Robin -- Elliot with his perfectly controlled manners being like a dessert. I relate to what you are saying.

Yes his self-assurance was his downfall. He thought he could just smooth talk Anne into marrying him, but she was the wiser one there. She got the much better catch, Capt. Wentworth.

Ohh, you clever people! Mr. Elliot is ABSOLUTELY like a dessert--seemingly smooth and sweet but too much will make you sick!

I love that the reader gets a capper on the expected happy ending. Not only do Anne and Wentworth marry but Mrs. Smith gets her deserved reward.

Yes, but none of the fattening calories. The ending of the book was very nicely done. I am now reading Northanger Abbey, so I am broadening my Austen readings. Thanks. Rachel.

Mrs. Smith was just waiting for a real friend(s) wasn't she? She certainly earned help from the Wentworths after providing the life-saving truth to Anne about William.

I had meant to comment on William at the end here after everyone had finished reading. So this is a
***************Spoiler********************************
I just think William Elliot shows up so devious because of the number of folks he was manipulating. Starting with the Smiths of course, but then simultaneously he was scheming against Sir Walter and Mrs. Clay, courting Anne, still keeping Elizabeth interested, and wooing Mrs. Clay to his side as a backup scheme. That is why I think he might be the worst of Austen's men altogether. And funny because in the 1995 film version in particular (IMO), I think his character really is so smooth and charming, you can see how he attracts people.

He was a busy boy, wasn't he?

Wm. Elliot might be too slicky-smooth. Anne's right -- as somebody has earlier stated -- he comes across too perfect to be believable. While I'm reading the story, I never see his appeal (except when he is attracted to Anne at Lyme) while I can with every other Austen 'villain'.

The salt air did her complexion wonders, and no doubt having Capt. Wentworth's company didn't hurt either.

SarahC wrote: "Mrs. Smith was just waiting for a real friend(s) wasn't she? She certainly earned help from the Wentworths after providing the life-saving truth to Anne about William.

I had meant to comment on ..."

I SO agree about the 1995 film version, Sarah--the actor was good-looking and so good at the charm. Mr. Elliot has always been the worst of Austen's cads to me too, and for just the reasons you list--he is SO manipulative about the entire situation. Again, I love that Anne isn't taken in by him!

What really got me about Mr. Elliot was when he was bad-talking Anne's father (I believe it was in a letter?, but not sure). As conceited and vain as Sir William, you just don't do that.

Has anyone mentioned that Mr. Elliot was calculating? He never said anything without calculating the effect it would have on his hearers, which explains why the letter about Sir William was written -- he never expected it to be read by anyone who would repeat it to the Elliots. His smooth talking to Anne, as he's trying to worm his way into her graces, sounds almost as contrived as Mr. Collins' (Pride & Prejudice) compliments!

Yes, Karlyne, he knew that letter would spoil his already ucky reputation and he was just too smooth for words, as the saying goes.

Robin wrote: "He was a busy boy, wasn't he?

Wm. Elliot might be too slicky-smooth. Anne's right -- as somebody has earlier stated -- he comes across too perfect to be believable. While I'm reading the story, ..."

Yes I too, agree. Ellliot is like a puppeteer pulling all the strings but never appear in the stage. And he is also not so appealing comparing with Austen's cads. May be because we hate "the Elliot pride" since the beginning and I think he is the only one who did not succeed in his motives, to a certain limit, atleast if I remember right.

Amalie wrote: "Robin wrote: "He was a busy boy, wasn't he?

Wm. Elliot might be too slicky-smooth. Anne's right -- as somebody has earlier stated -- he comes across too perfect to be believable. While I'm rea..."
Yes, it is also so fitting that Mrs. Smith made it a point to save this particular letter for Anne. Anne's reaction to the letter kind of reminds me of the scene in Northanger Abbey when Catherine learns the truth about General Tilney. The mask of civility has been removed to show their true character. Mr. Elliot-through a very personal letter and General Tilney-through the privacy of his own house.

Good link, Susan! General Tilney and the Elliots are Prideful (with a capital "P"). And the funny thing is that they have so little to be proud of! They're not well-read, educated, or particularly sought out by good society; they have a little beauty (especially Sir Walter, tee hee), some money and an old family. The thinking, feeling part of their world regards them with tolerance --verging on contempt at times, acute embarassment at others. Pride is indeed a funny thing!

And also to what great lengths someone will go to prove their pridefulness. Couldn't agree with you more, Karlyne.