My Adventures Through Theology and Beyond discussion

Ugh....so you were healed, except that your migraines aren't healed. How convincing.

...It doesn't sound too convincing to me. I'm sorry :/

People do that at my church. When my pastor is praying for them, they fall backwards, and pray I think. Or just shout /:

So was anything else healed-if not your migraines?

something did happen and I still can't wrap my head around it.

Of course something happened. Your brain is a powerful thing and it has the ability to affect the chemistry of your body. You already were biased going into the experience and your brain did the rest of the work for you.

I don't expect you to see it through my eyes because you aren't me

You don't expect me to see that you were healed, yet not healed by their intervention? Yeah, okay. I definitely see that this is utterly ridiculous since you are claiming "something" happened at the healing ceremony. Of course, one can't deny that what didn't happen at the healing ceremony was... you getting healed.

Just because they claim it was the Holy Ghost healing me and not some other thing like locating pressure points does NOT deny the existence of what happened to me

No, it just makes the person claiming it a credulous fool.

I will be going to others because, I am not some arrogant ass who thinks she knows everything and that anything is illogical if I don't agree with it

I am arrogant because I am not a credulous idiot like you? Okay, I will take arrogance over idiocy anyday. Guess what? You yourself said the healing ceremony didn'y even work. A damn ceremony dedicated to healing and, get this, no one even gets healed. Wow, that is damn useful. Yeah, you keep going to these ceremonies. Or better yet, you could buy some migraine medicine.

because of the simple fact it gives someone hope when they have none left.

Medicine is hope. And these stupid healing ceremonies lead some people away from doctors who can actually help them.

What the hell? I have never claimed that it was the Holy Spirit and blah blah blah however just because I went doesn't mean I believe in it.

And yet, you think there is something to their claims or you wouldn't even mention them and talk about them the way you do.

Yes on me, I am in no position to judge others experience.

Sure you are. If that crap worked, it would be called medicine.

You actually thought I expected it to work. I was invited to go with my father from a family friend, I went to experience not to get healed.

And yet, you were in the mix as much as anyone else. Eating the bullshit that was being fed to you. And the way you tell the story shows us this.

Yes and sometimes there is nothing doctors can do.

Sometimes. The answer, however, isn't to give people some bullshit false hope.

Like I said, you obviously think there is something to this BS or you wouldn't bring it up.

Yes, and both are hardly worth serious consideration.

Girl4beluga wrote: "♥ Rachel♥ wrote: "...It doesn't sound too convincing to me. I'm sorry :/"

Lol of course it wouldn't it, it is kinda like a you had to be there moment."

Yesh, they always are *sigh*

However something did happen and of course I am not convinced that it was the Holy Spirit casting out demons but I can deny what happened.

No, of course not...but, seeing as you have migraines, I think it's much more likely it was in your head.

No, I understand that you fell...but, I'd just saying that, as you have migraines and all...it really might have just been your brain :P

Which 'that'?

Kk. Meh, I don't know anything at all about your migraines so I can't say much >.< But I honestly wouldn't put any connection to God to it >.<

I am talking about completely pulsating and falling down not to mention I didn't think it would work

The very fact that you were engaging in the activity tells me otherwise. You got caught up in the emotion and your brain took over for you and made you have an experience.

Girl4beluga wrote: "♥ Rachel♥ wrote: "Kk. Meh, I don't know anything at all about your migraines so I can't say much >..

neither would I????? What are you talking about...."

Oh OK...? And, I thought you were like saying that it might be God or whatever :P

I had no expectation of it working.

And your expectation was met.

:P I mean, it's sort of pointless to discuss if you yourself doubt that it was something supernatural >.<

it's always good to be open-minded...even if it does involve farting faeries.

Really? What an idiotic comment. Assuming that farting fairies don't exist isn't being closed-minded. I am so sick of people not understanding what the difference is between closed-mindedness and open-mindedness. Your ignorance is annoying.

Here is a link. It lays it out very plainly and simply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOu...

To completely dismiss it and accuse G4B (who is one of the most logical people I know) of eating bullshit as Germany has done is, quite frankly, very arrogant.

No, to pretend that something which has a simple explanation instead has a supernatural one is arrogant. Pointing out the obvious explanations isn't arrogant at all.

"I got a cold chill. That could be the Holy Spirit" is utterly ridiculous and asinine. Why invoke supernatural causes for things that have natural explanations? Doing that is arrogant.

G4B (who is one of the most logical people I know)

Logical people often compartimentalize their brains and hold illogical beliefs when it comes to religion. Gb4 is one of those people.

No but we are talking about closed-mindedness about ways of worship and different life styles...you can't judge a healing service until you go to one, and even then you have to repeat it.

Sure I can. Healing services offer no evidence that they work. Therefore, I can judge them on that basis. If I were to use your method of judgement, I could never judge the concept of healing services unless I went to every healing service that ever existed. After all, healing services are different in different places. Until someone presents evidence that healing services are anything more than a bunch of people getting together and felling good about Jesus, I can judge them as "woo-woo."

I just think sometimes you don't give a shit about another way of thinking.

What I don't give a shit about is entertaining nonsensical claims that have no basis in reality and no evidence to support them.

And when the hell did I do that?

Saying that you aren't going to jump to the conclusion and assume it is the Holy Spirit was your tacit announcement that you really thought it could very well be the Holy Spirit.

Because maybe Nathan the thing that bugs you is not the concept of God but maybe what bugs you is what people state about that concept.

No, the concept of an invisible man living in the sky very much bothers me.

It cracks me up when you say "a crappy interpretation of Christianity." There is no non-crappy interpretation. Any interpretation that claims a man was born of a virgin, lived, performed miracles, died and rose from the dead three days later is idiotic and illogical.

Maybe you should stop using the word "logic" when you really mean your opinion.

I don't. My Masters was in logic. I think I know a thing or two about it. You want to go around life believing in nonsense that has no supporting evidence. Go ahead, but don't pretend that what you are doing is logical.

Because to you it is logical to write off every religious person in Godreads because none of them will listen to your condescending speeches about how idiotic the concept of a God is.

I have never written off anyone. I have pointed out their idiocy many times. I have told them where their beliefs are not logical and hold no credibility. So what? It is proper to write of random assertion. Especially wild random assertion. You just get mad when it is done to you instead of someone else.

I will not instantly write off the possibility of people having the power of healing because I don't know and neither do you.

People do have the power to heal. They are called doctors and nurses. People chanting and praying don't heal others. If you honestly can't wrap your head around that, then you have an infantile understanding of the way the world works.

hmmm that seems like something some has said about the concept....

Guess what? EVERY concept of God is one that someone has said or thought of. There exists no concept of God outside of that. For you to say that my problem isn't with the concept of God but with people's interpretations of the concept of God is idiotic. All concepts of God are people's interpretations.

Again with this "evidence"......this is probably the most stupid debate for atheism...

What? Are you really going to say something so transparently stupid? Atheism is the lack in belief of gods. When one claims gods exist, atheists ask for evidence that this claim is true. When no evidence is provided, atheists hold onto their default position that they do not believe in these gods. How is that stupid? Holy shit, I can't believe you said something so dumb. I really can't.

See you have no idea what a healing service is like....

Maybe not your particular one. I have seen them before. "Praise Jesus! Cast out the devil from this poor man's hips! Let him walk again!" "She is speaking in tongues! She is speaking in tongues!" You may have been to one or two, but I have seen videos of plenty of them.

Yes that is kinda the point of a concept. You have no problem with the truth about God (whatever that is) you just have a problem with what people say.

What? The idea of God is a human construct. There is no God without humans projecting their beliefs about a God. So your statement is nonsensical. You are essentially saying, "You have no problem with that which does not exist. You merely have problems with the way people talk about that which does not exist as if it existed." Who could have a problem with that which does not exist? You're trying to sound smart, but you aren't doing a very good job.

Hey, considering you are most focused on Christianity you might have better luck debating against the Trinity or the fact of suffering

I am not focused on any particular religion. They all have the same merit when it comes to their belief in the supernatural....none.

I find the evidence debate extremely weak because how do you expect to use science to prove something that transcends the physical

This is utter nonsense. You have not one shred of evidence to suggest that there is anything that transcends the physical. SO why would you think anything does? "I am talking about the non-physical here." Wow, great. You are talking about nonsense.

My favorite was one about casting out a gay demon, then she hit him with the Bible

And it worked like a charm.

Ehhh I can swear up and down there is a God and you can swear up and down that there isn't, neither of them will change the truth.

Just like I can swear up and down that invisible fart fairies live in my ass. However, my claim would be ridiculous as there is no evidence to support it, just as your claim about there being a god is ridiculous. If your claim is somehow better than mine, explain why.

it doesn't mean someone else can judge it or not because you will never see it the way that person sees it

No, that is precisely what we can do. Judge their claims and assertions.

Yes by the very definition of a claim! But not a belief or opinion.

A belief and/or an opinion is a claim.

Of course it is. "I believe this or that" is a claim that this or that is believable and that there is a reason to believe it. Or else, why the hell would you believe it?

WTF are you talking about? You were just arguing a belief is not a claim, and I showed how it is a claim. Then you babble on saying the same bullshit you said before which does not in any way answer the statement I just made.

Same shit.

Girl4beluga wrote: "I admit something happen whether it was supernatural or not I don't know...however what do you think of the subject"

Healing ceremonies? It depends on the ceremony. I mean, your body does have certain pressure points that can be used to relieve migraines. However, I can't say I really believe those ceremonies that consist of chanting random stuff in a language that probably doesn't exist. :P

Lindsay wrote: "Rachel is Switzerland."

Always :P I won't write off the existence of a deity, but I won't believe in one or say something was caused by one :P

Girl4beluga wrote: "Hey!! We should move all the agnostics to Switzerland."

true :P

...Can it be Hawaii? Please? Or some other random tropical island, I'm not really particular as to which :P

I really don't know much on the subject......but all i want to say is that there are a lot of WACKY ppl out there that believe they have divine powers of healing

I mean healing as in creating wholesomeness.

That really isn't clarifying anything. What do you mean by that?

Health in mind, spirit, and body....

Then you are still talking about people actually being able to heal illness.

i believe only God can give complete healing as in mind, spirit, and body.

Why do you think that?

Only in the New Testament could the diciples heal people miraculously. After those gifts ceased, i don't believe humans are gifted with divine healing. God can heal a person, but i don't think he would do it through a particular human's gifts.

Why do you believe what the New Testament says?

That's interesting.....where can i find this information?

ok, i was just interested..:)

Nathan wrote: "Why do you believe what the New Testament says?"

You'll probably bash what i say, but i believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, therefore, it is infallible.

Well, it's logical......if God is perfect, he cannot create something that's imperfect.

But it was HE who gave the words to the men who wrote it. Even though we are fallible humans, an omnipotent God can still inspire a perfect word.

"How can a book that you read one day and then read the next day and find completely different meaning for the same verse be perfect?"

I've never had something completely different come out of a text before. Show me a verse in which you can get two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT meanings.

"Not to mention where did you get the idea that God was perfect?"

It says it in the Bible. But since you don't believe the infallibility of the Bible, you won't believe me. God isn't man-made, so therefore he can be perfect.

Do you believe that God is omnipotent?

♥ Rachel♥ wrote: "...Can it be Hawaii? Please? Or some other random tropical island, I'm not really particular as to which :P"

Do not send agnostics to Hawaii, we already have enough people here as it is. Leave them in neutral Switzerland.

But if it's not a completely different meaning, then it doesn't contradict itself.

What? Why is perfection a boundary? It's an attribute. What thoughts and ideas?

Actually it does matter. If God isn't omnipotent, then he can't do everything. Just answer the question.

Robin wrote: "Do not send agnostics to Hawaii, we already have enough people here as it is. Leave them in neutral Switzerland."

:'( Butbutbut it's cold in Switzerland! And Hawaii has turtles ♥

But you had a different meaning. What about the "Then think about it how can a book that you read one day and then read the next day and find completely different meaning for the same verse be perfect?"
You were trying to prove the Bibe was imperfect by saying you get a different meaning out of the text.

i have an imperfect view of God....everyone does. We're human, and therefore fallible. This is not a "mold" i "wish" to put God in, it is my view of god seen through the Bibe. You see the Bible as a historical book, so why would you use if for religious ideas?

Now that is illogical.....how can you "surpass perfection?" Perfection is being without flaw or blemish. How can you surpass that?

But it doesn't mean that the bible is imperfect. We are all different....no one is completely alike, so naturally we will each get something different from something.

Correct.....but WE didn't inspire the Bible

"Right because people 2,000 years ago knew who God is. Not to mention something that has been edited, changed, translated, censored, and everything in between. Wait not to mention is is a COLLECTION of works, not just one long story. Of course you don't have any concept of how the Bible was canonized do you?"

Thus we return to our old disagreement.....we won't get anywhere because you believe the bible is fallible, and i don't. You think the Bible was just written by people....but if you believe it was inspired by God, it changes the whole perspective. Would you like to keep picking over nothing, or would you like to agree to disagree?

"Ah, inspiration does not mean that it turns into that object. If an apple inspires me, does that make my paint an actual apple. No it makes it my INTERPRETATION of a certain apple."

But.....it is still an apple. And if God wanted that inspiration to be perfect, he could make it so.

"I sure as hell don't. I take it as a THEOLOGICAL DOCUMENT written in a different time with a different culture and society."

My bad......a THEOLOGICAL document. Still, you don't use it for religious ideas. I'm not saying that the cultures are going to be the same.....back then they stoned adulterers. Do we do that now? Of course not! But the theological ideas are still prevelent.

"Perfection is a mathematical concept not to mention a human construct. The christian concept of a God is one that surpasses all human conecpts and ideas."

Aren't all words of human construct? Of course nothing human will ever describe God well, but that is beside the point.

"Inspirations does not magically turn it into something it is not. There is no point in a truce because the whole point of this is to mature and grow, this has nothing to do with being right or wrong."

Did i say that they "magically" turned into anything?

"But why would he? Or rather why do you believe he would? Then how do you explain other religious texts like the Quaran and the Tannakh."

Why wouldn't he? What use would it be to Him if it was imperfect? Who would believe it? What explaining do you need?

And there lies your view of the Bible. To you it is just "beautiful poetry." Do you even believe in absolute truths?

"Yes, and our ideas and religions. But that IS the point....you can't just let God be God you have to tell people absolutes about him that you don't know."

Correct. But you can't say "absolutes about him that we don't know." To you we don't know them, but it's different to people who believe the infallibility of the Bible.

"No but you are saying because someone was inspired by the concept of God then makes their writings perfect."

What do you mean by the "concept" of God?

"No you are wrong....you can swear up and down that grass is orange but it doesn't change the fact that it is green. Belief does not make truth."

I agree with you COMPLETELY. Belief does not make it true. It is merely my opinion. Just like you have yours, and they differ. You say we don't know absolutes about God, and I say that we do.

"You know I will give you this, the Bible may of been as close to perfect (as they could get) when it was written but that doesn't mean that it is close to perfect now. We are living in a completely different world now. All that blind faith does is ruined your perspective on actual truth."

Where do you get your view of actual truth?