The Sword and Laser discussion

I'm reading The Black Prism at the moment and it has a religious theme to it. I haven't finished it yet but from what I've read so far I'd highly recommend it.

His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman. Although it's rather anti-religious. Loved the first one, liked the second one, hated the third one, but people have all kinds of different reactions to the books, so don't let that pull you off. I don't remember exactly when the religious part came in, but I think it was more in the second or third book even.

Try Lois McMaster Bujold's five gods series that starts with The Curse of Chalion. There are 3 books so far, don't know if she'll do anymore. The 1st 2 are companion books and the 3rd is a stand-alone that takes place in a different part of the world. Religion plays a huge part in the stories, the only magic is miracles from the gods in one form or another. I think she's one of the best writers writing scifi/fantasy today.

The Wizard is a book 2 of the series, so you might want to read "The knight" as well.
The Chronicles of Narnia

You might like this podcast: http://agoodstoryishardtofind.blogspo...

All the Bells on Earth by James P. Blaylock is a great modern fantasy with religious themes.

You might also check out C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy.

Weirdly, I'm finding it easier to think of SF novels with religious themes rather than fantasy.

Wade wrote: "Weirdly, I'm finding it easier to think of SF novels with religious themes rather than fantasy."

Yeah, on the sci-fi side, we have A Canticle for Leibowitz, A Case of Conscience, Dune, Clarke's short story "The Star," Calculating God, Earth Has Been Found...

In fantasy there might be gods around, like in the Malazan books, but they don't have any of the moral underpinnings of religion -- they're just powerful beings who zap people who get in their way.

What about The Belgariad by David Eddings? It's not so much about religion itself, but it does feature religion as a semi-important plot element and shows how it formed around the events of the story formed around events. You can see this in more depth in the prequel novels Belgarath the Sorcerer and Polgara the Sorceress. It's barely covered at all in the follow-up series though (The Mallorean), with the exception of the first book.

The short stories "Inn" and "Epiphany" in Connie Willis' Miracle and Other Christmas Stories are great explorations of religious themes via fantasy.

Sean wrote: Yeah, on the sci-fi side, we have A Canticle for Leibowitz, A Case of Conscience..."

Yes! And I'd add Zelazny's Lord of Light.

If you're open to science fiction there's Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun (which can be read entirely independently of The Book of the New Sun). It's about a good priest in a bad religion who realizes he's been worshipping false gods when the real God enlightens him on Page 1.

How about Anathem? The Maths,which were like intellectual monasteries, treated intellectualism like earth's monasteries treat religion.

Of course, Pullman's The Golden Compass (and the rest of His Dark Materials) are mostly fantasy and religious (or rather anti-religious)

Pullman's books aren't so much anti-religion as they're anti-church. The problem isn't belief, but others deciding how you should believe.

Terry Pratchett's Small Gods is the most explicit of his explorations of belief and organised religion, and it works as a stand alone novel.

More of a sci-fi bent, but The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell concerns Jesuits and aliens.

You could always read the original religious fantasy, Holy Bible: King James Version. :-D

I haven't read it, but Theodore Sturgeon's Godbody is kind of a reworking of the new testament, published after his death. Spider Robinson did a sample on his podcast recently.

Snokat wrote: "You could always read the original religious fantasy, Holy Bible: King James Version. :-D"

The Epic of Gilgamesh called and said "First!"

Tom wrote: "Snokat wrote: "You could always read the original religious fantasy, Holy Bible: King James Version. :-D"

The Epic of Gilgamesh called and said "First!""

Then the Epic of Atrahasis showed up and said, "Dammit, Gilgamesh, not only are you not first, you ripped off a quarter of your text from me."

Then the Enuma Elish yelled, "Get off my lawn, you kids!"

(Seriously, though, Oxford University Press has a great volume called Myths from Mesopotamia that contains the major extant works of Sumerian, Akkadian and Babylonian literature, of which Gilgamesh is just the most famous.)

Snokat wrote: "You could always read the original religious fantasy, Holy Bible: King James Version. :-D"

Woah, would you have made that crack about the Koran?

LOL to Snokat, and respect is due to Sean for his erudition (not to mention the heads-up on that book; I got to get me that one!)

And to Sean; I agree. the Koran is kind of like the Sword of Shannara to the Torah's Lord of the Rings (although so much of that is in turn ripped from those Mesopotamian myths anyway...)

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coda - just looked the OUP book up on Amazon and the hardback goes for 200 quid second hand... fortunately the paperback is a fiver!

Noel wrote: "Woah, would you have made that crack about the Koran?"

It's old hat for SF fans to treat religious books as fantasy novels. They even have sci-fi names.

The Bible (published dos a dos as an Ace Double) - War God of Israel/The Thing with Three Souls

The Quran - Prophet of Dune

Book of Mormon - The Adventures of Illinois Smith and the Golden Plates of Nephi

True, and I have absolutely no problem with that.
It just seems to me that to flat out call a Holy Book (to some) a work of fiction is done to the bible much more readily than to some other holy books. Is this due to increased familiarity? is it due heightened religious sensitivity of other religions? Is it easier to denigrate western religious beliefs than eastern? Is genuinely critical appraisal of Christianity much easier here than of other religions? Are we truly free to discuss the veracity or otherwise of other cultures' religious tenets?

Noel wrote: "True, and I have absolutely no problem with that.
It just seems to me that to flat out call a Holy Book (to some) a work of fiction is done to the bible much more readily than to some other holy b..."

I'd say it's largely to do with cultural familiarity on the part of the commentators, and their audience. (The best analogy I've heard on that is getting together with a group of friends and one of them turns up wearing a hideously purple paisley shirt, so naturally you take the mickey out of him. However, seeing a stranger wearing the same hideous shirt you don't walk up to them and do likewise.)(With apologies to anyone who owns purple paisley shirts).

Also, I guess that western, christian countries went through the whole burning/stoning/torturing people for criticising their religion several centuries ago, and the subsequent Enlightenment upon which all our views of freedom of expression are based, which is another reason we're more comfortable with criticising the religions based in those cultures.

We are, of course, free to discuss the veracity of any subject we wish. I am quite happy to say that all holy books are, at best, works of literature and fiction or, at worst, deliberate frauds created to either control people or, in the case of Dianetics and the Book of Mormon, to make money.

However, i still don't find myself in a position to criticise other peoples' dress sense.

Good points there. I do however take exception to your anti purple paisley shirt comments. I like to wear them together with lime green shorts, white socks with open sandals.

Gilgamesh isn't real!!! =-O

I noticed nobody has mentioned Orson Scott Card's 7 book Homecoming series yet. He takes the 1st few books in the Book of Mormon and recasts the story as scifi. It's a pretty good read.
Mankind moved to the stars and left earth behind. Millennia later a family sets out to rediscover earth and finds that in man's absence new intelligent life has evolved.

Pezter wrote: "in the case of Dianetics and the Book of Mormon, to make money."

Hey, the Book of Mormon is by far the most readable scripture outside of Hinduism. Lots of adventure and smiting without the "And Abdoranidsin begat Abdoragnisn who begat Abmaster," and "If a lamb is born during the second full moon after passover, thou shalt not use its wool for the blanket of a lactating mother."

Lord of Light and my new fave (thanks again) The Years of Rice and Salt.

The Tibetian Book of the Dead might be one of the most sf of religious texts...perhaps as read by Agent Cooper in Twin Peaks.

Pezter wrote: "and the Book of Mormon, to make money...."

Not sure if you can make that claim since they give them away. Sure you can buy high quality copies, but to any Mormon church and they have stacks ready to handout to anyone interested. Not a big fundraiser there.

Snokat wrote: "Not sure if you can make that claim since they give them away. Sure you can buy high quality copies, but to any Mormon church and they have stacks ready to handout to anyone interested. Not a big fundraiser there. "

No, you misunderstand me. I'm suggesting that Joseph Smith was a conman and huckster who wrote the book to fleece people, not that the church sells it for money.

Pezter wrote: "in the case of Dianetics and the Book of Mormon, to make money."

If that were the goal of the Book of Mormon then Joseph Smith failed miserably. He was never financially successful, in fact he was often in debt from either church responsibilities or from helping someone out.

Everything I've read about Smith in the comparative religion classes I took suggests that he truly believed what he preached. I don't know if you could say the same about his family though. Since his wife and son broke from the church he founded, after his death, forming the Reorganized church, believing the leadership should be hereditary like nobility.

Snokat wrote: "Pezter wrote: "and the Book of Mormon, to make money...."

Not sure if you can make that claim since they give them away. Sure you can buy high quality copies, but to any Mormon church and they hav..."

They give them away for the same reason that a crack dealer gives away 'free samples'.

Wow. What an idiotic analogy.

Snokat wrote: "Wow. What an idiotic analogy."

Pretty accurate though. Except it's not about the money, it's about control.

If you want to compare a church to crack dealers, I suggest you take a close look at the history of Catholicism. They're the ones with the violent history of killing off competition and punishing anyone who disrespects them.

As far as I can tell, Mormon history shows them mainly being the oppressed, not the oppressors.

Well, we've gotten a little off track since actual religious texts were brought up. As far as the original question goes though, whoever mentioned Orson Scott Card was right on the money. The homecoming series does have a lot of Book of Mormon Parallels, and some of the Alvin Maker series seems to have it's root in early mormon history.

Card has also written a couple of Mormon pioneers living in a post-apocalyptic world type stories. If you want Biblical / historical fiction he's also written his women of the Genesis series where he tells to story of some of the women mentioned in the old testament. Plus there's Stone Tables, where he tells his version of Moses.

Snokat wrote: "If you want to compare a church to crack dealers, I suggest you take a close look at the history of Catholicism. They're the ones with the violent history of killing off competition and punishing a..."

I completely agree. When I said I think it's an accurate analogy I meant about religion on a whole not just the Mormons.

Eric wrote: Well, we've gotten a little off track since actual religious texts were brought up.

I think that depends on perspective.

Anyway the last two Sword and Laser picks have been religious in nature, Good Omens and Shadow & Claw.

Snokat wrote: "If you want to compare a church to crack dealers, I suggest you take a close look at the history of Catholicism. They're the ones with the violent history of killing off competition and punishing ..."

For all the evil corrupt organized religion has done, much good has also come from the church and much good comes from sincere believers.

I'd be hard pressed to find a great many upstanding crack dealers.

It's a distinction worth making, if you don't want to get buried in a religious debate - though maybe this thread was always doomed to that :P

Al wrote: "Lord of Light and my new fave (thanks again) The Years of Rice and Salt."

I'll second the recommendation for Years of Rice and Salt. Excellent book.

Big ups for A Canticle for Leibowitz.

And if any of you are old-time radio nerds, back in 1982 Wisconsin Public Radio did a 15-part radio play of the book, complete with a nice big cast, weird synthesized foley work, and a creepy, creepy ending. It was released as a CD, but it's not in print. Although, they have replayed it and some people may have recorded it. Call them tapeleggers.

Best listened to while driving late at night.

I second David Eddings, though his second series The Elenium followed by The Tamuli are MUCH more directly religious.

The main character is a knight in a religious order that is commanded by the equivalent of the Vatican. Their continent is basically Europe and they are at war with the east. Sounds pretty simplistic but in the end their leaders are all corrupt and the story is quite original and imaginative, so its worth a read, even if Eddings is more YA than most.

Colin wrote: "The Wizard is a book 2 of the series, so you might want to read "The knight" as well.
The Chronicles of Narnia"

I only know The Chronicals of Narnia 'movies.' The Christian theme made into the Prince movie. It was in the first one too, obviously. I think the third movie took too many creative licenses. It was too much like an Action Thriller, although I am looking forward to the next movie, after Voyage of the Dawn Treader. I suspect, but do not know, from any higher power, or elsewhere, but I suspect. The people who hold the rights to Mere Christianity and The Great Divorce, are behind the money making the movies. There seems to be a great interest in The Chronicles of Narnia books.

Is it possible the movies are simple promotional objects for the books? Can they also be gifts, from a guy who went to a school, like the one depicted in The Breakfast Club? And'Or a school like the one in Sixteen Candles.

The Great Divorce provides a wonderful view of heaven. It does this from the perspective of Hell, it presents a view of God, that says 'Maybe even after you die, you can still chose to be with God' The Great Divorce, shows a great deal of contrast with Christians today against those that need mercy. If you read The Great Divorce as a book of mercy, while remembering that it was wrote long before the epidemic of divorce occurred in the US of A.

Almost all of my friends in High School and some in College came from broken homes. God did not intend The Great Divorce to bring pain into the world. It is The Great Divorce between man and God. It actually gives a defense to divorced people: in very right wing christian fundamentalism gatherings.

Eric wrote: "Pezter wrote: "in the case of Dianetics and the Book of Mormon, to make money."

If that were the goal of the Book of Mormon then Joseph Smith failed miserably. He was never financially successful..."

Have you ever seen a Mormon temple? I live within 10-15 miles of 2 of them, trust me The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) are ALL about Money. If you don't believe me, go research this: What was Mitt Romney's response to Hurricane Sandy? If you happen to know, which you could know, please respond.

Walrus wrote: "Eric wrote: "Have you ever seen a Mormon temple? I live within 10-15 miles of 2 of them, trust me The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) are ALL about Money..."

They aren't anymore about money than any other religion, especially the Catholic Church. Just imagine what could happen if they all actually followed their own teaching and put all that wealth towards helping the sick and poor, and not just a token attempt at relief. I don't have a problem with them financing schools, etc (other than the whole God not science thing). But I do have a problem with the extravagant lifestyle most of the leadership end up living. It hard to take an decrees serious about helping others coming from a man living in a palace, wearing a fortune in jewels, surrounded by some of the greatest artwork in the world. Or more modern prophets building private amusement parks.
Next time we have the opportunity to nail a god to a tree, we should double the nails and leave him to rot. Maybe that'll stillborn the religion.

The Deed of Paksennarion, by Elizabeth Moon. Profoundly moving at times, and the contrast between how paladins are now trained and regulated by the religious orders and how they originally occurred is quite interesting.

Terry Pratchett: Small Gods and Pyramids are the obvious candidates, but many of the Discworld books have religious undertones, particularly the earlier ones.

There is a lot of fantasy that as religion in it: Dragonlance, Michael Sullivan's Riyara series, Dresden Files, King Rolen's Kin, Outcast Chronicles... wait do you want positive religious themes? oh this post is like 2 years old... nevermind

I'm going to suggest R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy. The main plot driving the series is a Crusades like holy war between two faiths; Inrithism (which is somewhat analogous to Christianity with some polytheistic elements) and Fanimry (which is monotheist and analogous to Islam).

The series consists of the books The Darkness That Comes Before, The Warrior Prophet and The Thousandfold Thought.