The History Book Club discussion

Welcome to the continuation of the wonderful book: All Quiet on the Western Front!

by Erich Maria Remarque

This week's assigned reading is as follows for Week 5:

Week 5, May 30 - June 5: Chapter 5 (pages 75-97)

This is proving to be a great discussion of World War I, different perspectives on a soldier who is portrayed to actually have served in the German army as well as the effects of war and suffering and despair on all sides. The reading is fairly quick, but there is a lot to think about, share, and learn.

This is a May/June/July discussion so everybody has plenty of time to read this selection. Most weekly assignments are fairly short, so it should be pretty easy to catch-up if you are ever behind. Feel free to comment on any of the weekly threads that have been opened (however please avoid spoilers).

This book was kicked off May 2nd. This is the eighth historical fiction group selected book. We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. Usually the book can also be obtained at your local library, or on your Kindle or even Audible. NOTE: I've been told that this book is NOT available on Kindle. If anyone finds out differently, please let us all know. Thanks.

Thanks to all who read and share their thoughts, ideas, and knowledge with the rest of the group.

This thread is open for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.

For your convenience, here are some links to other threads related to our discussion:

Table of Contents and Syllabus: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Introductory thread: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Glossary (spoiler thread) is a good place to post links that will help in understanding the personages discussed, their background, the events and the battles, or the environment itself, etc.: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Book-as-a-Whole (spoiler thread) is a great place to discuss spoilers if you've already read the book. You can also use this thread to check if something is a spoiler before posting on a weekly thread.: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Here is a link to the Military History folder which deals with World War I: (there is a lot here)
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_...

After taking us to the front lines in the last chapter, Remarque starts Chapter 5 with the soldiers lounging around with lice. Baumer and his pals are hunting lice and discussing what they would do if peace came. Himmelstoss comes up and seems surprised at his cold reception. Tjaden openly insults Himmelstoss, who threatens Tjaden with a court-martial and leaves. Muller continues to ask people what they would do if they were home. A sargeant, with Himmelstoss right behind, shows up to arrest Tjaden, who is conveniently off-scene. That evening there is a trial, with their Lieutenant in charge. Baumer and others testify about the bedwetting training, and Tjaden gets a mere three days of open arrest.

Kat and Baumer "collect" a goose from a regimental headquarters shed. They kill and cook it, two friends alone in the hut. After eating as much as they like, they invite Kropp and Tjaden to share the rest.

In this chapter the men begin to really reveal themselves and how they have changed and are changing. The nitty gritty of Kat facing, for a moment, his eventual responsibility of feeding his family is I think the first mention of post war obligation then Detering the need to do the harvesting. They talk about what they will do without including the possibility/likelihood that they will not all get home.

They share the delousing – Tjaden seems to have made it into a ritual – not uncommon for bored people with repeating tasks I guess.

The possible finality of their situation is illustrated by the questioning if there will ever be a peacetime. Certainly there will never be one for the men who died in the wire stringing exercise.

The confrontation with Himmelstoss and Tjaden and the rest of the fellows (adding in Kat & Detering maybe referring to them as boys is not still correct) and the eventual fairness of the officers’ final determination is to me a sign that Himmelstoss was beyond the system in his actions. At this point Himmelstoss might be afraid to go to combat with these fellows but he doesn’t seem that smart.

There is here the first real reference to combat, the reference (page 85) of knowing it is better to use a bayonet into the belly avoiding the ribcage – but no firm indication they had experienced this.

The camaraderie of Baumer & Kat over the goose – their affection and co-dependence – and then bringing what was left to their buddies – illustrates how the war has forged for them new familial ties with men that were previously strangers.

It seems in this chapter is shown their ongoing identity change/changes.

I don't want to put this in book as a whole as it might be viewed as a possible spoiler and not read but I began to read

Ken Follett

Historical fiction that is very interesting, also fiction, following WWI from the view primarily of British soldiers. I will not read a chapter a week and I am a Follet fan and when I saw the book available in the library I just took it but it might be interesting for those who have the time and opportunity.

Some very good points, Vince. I like your analysis of Himmelstoss, that he is not very smart. Well said. He definitely has a lot to learn about appropriate authority and working with people and about the priorities of life.

Vince wrote: "I don't want to put this in book as a whole as it might be viewed as a possible spoiler and not read but I began to read ..."

Actually, you don't need to worry about spoilers in the Book as a Whole thread. You can discuss anything there. It is in these weekly threads that we avoid mentioning anything later in the book.

We get little tid-bits about each of the soldiers at various times. In this chapter we see that Tjaden has a streak of inventiveness (i.e. the delousing).

And we learn that Kat is married and has kids. Was anyone else surprised by this? I guess I'm picturing him as more of a big brother/uncle type than a father type. But I guess that makes sense since that is the way we see him in the book.

This chapter has a lot of chatting-by-the-fire type conversations. I think the "what would you be doing if the war ended" discussion really shows us that being a soldier messes up both the lives of people who had families and the lives of the people who hadn't gotten to that point yet. Life is held up whether you had a job/career before the war or not.

When thinking and reading about war, it is easy to think that it isn't as big of a deal for the young college-age men to be the soldiers. But here Remarque shows us that in many ways it is worse for them. They don't have anything to go back to after the war. Even Haie, who had a job before, doesn't want to go back to it. He has been changed.

By the way, I was actually a little surprised at how Tjaden's trial turns out. So much of the book focuses on how unfair and unreasonable the war and the army are, I guess I expected that to be universal. But we get a little glimmer of something going right. :)

Elizabeth S wrote: "This chapter has a lot of chatting-by-the-fire type conversations. I think the "what would you be doing if the war ended" discussion really shows us that being a soldier messes up both the lives o..."

Hello :). I misplaced my book- took it with me on the road. Sorry! I am awaiting a replacement via mail...:)
So I am flying by the seat of my pants but I remember reading this chapter...
And my addition to the discussion is I remember feeling like Haie (out of all the men) didn't change because it seemed like he hated his job just as much before the war...like even war was better than the monotony of his old job? And that this baffled the other men?
But like I said I don't have my book and Remarque does seem to be wanting readers aware of how men change when becoming a soldier and this could be another example. It even seems more likely that that is correct...but I just remember feeling different even if that is not what Remarque meant to convey.
And one of my favorite scenes so far is Tjaden confronting Himmeltoss. And I love Vince's comment about how Himmeltoss is really not that smart. I agree. I think power is a drug to him and he doesn't really understand how disliked he is... but in fact he thinks everyone wants to be him. He has no accountability for himself.

Elizabeth S wrote: "We get little tid-bits about each of the soldiers at various times. In this chapter we see that Tjaden has a streak of inventiveness (i.e. the delousing).

And we learn that Kat is married and h..."

I was surprised a little. Kat seems so free and independent, like a guy, an uncle like you said perhaps, that was maybe a male role model to little ones but then could drop them off at the end of the day but didn't necessarily have to worry about where they were getting their next meal? :) Why is that? I mean he is so resourceful at feeding the multitudes? Though resourceful and responsible for so many, I think until now he came across to me unworried/untroubled like he didn't have anyone to worry about back home?

Good to hear from you, Autumn. You have a great memory! I hope you get your replacement soon.

In one sense I agree that Haie didn't change as much as the others. As you said, he hated being a peat-digger before and he still hates it. But in another sense I think he changed more than the others. Before the war, he was just a peat-digger. Now he has dreams of becoming an NCO, serving out his 12 years (hopefully with the war over), and then being a village policeman. It seems that Haie wouldn't have even dreamed about any of those hopes if he hadn't gone to war.

I think you have it right that Remarque is trying to show the different ways that war changes people. Even though we are mostly seeing these friends together, they have each been changed in a different way.

Autumn wrote: "...And one of my favorite scenes so far is Tjaden confronting Himmeltoss. And I love Vince's comment about how Himmeltoss is really not that smart. I agree. I think power is a drug to him and he doesn't really understand how disliked he is... but in fact he thinks everyone wants to be him. He has no accountability for himself."

Well said!

Autumn wrote: "...Kat seems so free and independent, like a guy, an uncle like you said perhaps, that was maybe a male role model to little ones but then could drop them off at the end of the day but didn't necessarily have to worry about where they were getting their next meal?..."

Yes, I like how you describe Kat. He is "free and independent" which is why being leg-shackled to a woman & family (i.e. married with kids) seems so weird. He is very resourceful, and he does feed the multitudes sometimes. But sometimes he just provides for his small group of friends. And sometimes just for one buddy. And probably sometimes just for himself. You'd think that someone as old as Kat would become something of a father-figure to the others, but he isn't. I think that is largely because he doesn't take responsibility for others except when he feels so inclined.

Thank you!
Exactly Elizabeth S, I like your description of Kat because he does pick and choose when/who he wants to be responsible for. I had not thought about how he does that- but now his personality seems very clear. Very interesting.
And I forgot about how the war has inspired Haie to have different dreams/goals for himself. Makes me wonder what being a Peat Digger is like...must be incredibly challenging. It interests me that war seems to have somehow empowered Haie when it has chipped away at some of the others a little?

Autumn, it occurred to me as I was reading your last comment, what is peat? I had a vague notion of mud or manure or something. So here's the dictionary.com answer:

Definition 1: "A highly organic material found in marshy or damp regions, composed of partially decayed vegetable matter: it is cut and dried for use as fuel."

Definition 2 (obsolete): "Merry young girl; darling (used as a term of endearment)."

Even though Haie obviously "digs" girls, I'm guessing his occupation related more to definition #1. :) Sounds like a dirty, back-breaking, grueling job with little respect.

Autumn wrote: "...It interests me that war seems to have somehow empowered Haie when it has chipped away at some of the others a little? "

Perhaps serving in the armed forces channels everyone onto a limited number of life-paths. For those who had dreams, plans, or even just opportunities to choose, being in the army limits them. For those, like Haie, who had a dead-end career with little respect and no hope of changing, the army is a gateway to something different.

Of course, for the most part you don't get to choose if you end up dead while in the armed forces. But we typically separate those out before talking about whether the army has changed people for the better.

Never thought about these chapters and about the various ways individuals change that way before. I was sending them all in one direction. Anyway, Good points :) Thank you.
Got my copy so yay!!!!

Glad you got it, Autumn!

During World War II, although this book is about WWI - my father had enlisted in the Air Force which at that time was part of the Army. Many were drafted but at that time they felt they were helping out our country fight a regime which needed to be stopped.

They were entering for a noble cause and many like my father and so many others had great opportunities in other fields which were dramatically removed from simply ending up with dead end careers.

So I do not buy into the analogy that for some the army limits them and for others it is an opportunity. Sometimes it is a noble cause for family and a way of life which spurs folks on. Till this day, my father speaks with fondness of the camaraderie, friendships and discipline for life that he got in return for his time.

In a book One Bullet Away, the author (a successful and brilliant Dartmouth grad) had many opportunities and none of them dead end (and we are now speaking of the Iraq conflict, etc.) and he wanted to enlist in the Marines to learn from life what he could not learn on his present course; he learned more about leadership during these times than he could have learned from any set of books.

So I think that the armed forces does change men and for the better in most instances if they survive. So I agree with that analogy but not with the comments "that serving in the armed forces channels everyone onto a limited number of life paths and so on." Although there are folks who subscribe to that view; I think that is patently false. One of my doctors who is quite renowned likes his stints in Afghanistan, etc. because he sees a purpose for his efforts even though he is away six months at a time for his stints. Having partners in his practice keeps everything afloat.

by Nathaniel Fick

Bentley wrote: "During World War II, although this book is about WWI - my father had enlisted in the Air Force which at that time was part of the Army. Many were drafted but at that time they felt they were helpin..."

Bentley, I see and admire this point of view as well.I was raised with this pt of view and I don't disagree with it.
Actually, most of the men in my family and a few women are in the military and a few have experienced war. And they speak of it with fondness as well. It also helped them pay for college, some have retired early, made lifelong friendships etc...From my family's experiences the good has far outweighed the bad. My one cousin that I am very close believes it was his calling- he loves it and he excels at it- he is one of the noblest men I've ever known (not bias or anything ;)). My grandfather fought in World War II- he even won The Bronze Star which he never talked about- he was a humble, kind person (in my opinion). He believed and it was probably true, The Armed Forces gave him opportunities that he would not have had otherwise. All of them had the sense their jobs were for the betterment and freedoms of all people. They carry these values as citizens too. :) So anyway I can relate to what you are saying b/c that has been my own personal experience and my own personal belief system.

But when I agreed with Elizabeth S, I guess I had a father of a friend in mind that came back from Vietnam with Post Traumatic Stress so bad, his life had not changed for the better. And that maybe he would have been better off not going into the military? Maybe it's just it was a different war/time and I don't know what his ideology was beforehand? But I think though possible, these cases like my friend's dad might not be in the majority? And though probably given opportunities maybe he was not capable after coming back of pursuing them? So perhaps the opportunities are always there?

I think the men in

All Quiet on the Western Front byErich Maria Remarque

are conveyed to have changed- some for the better-some for the worse. And that in this novel he's trying to get his audience to see that war is different than the idea of it. And honestly I can't decide if he's trying to paint the military in a poor light or if he is trying to stay in the middle? And I sometimes am caught when reading this between my own opinions and a literary analysis of the book.

And I probably have made no sense because that often happens :). But I am happy you shared this because I like your examples and it led me to attempt to clarify where I stand. :)

Yes, Autumn - your description of your own family is a wonderful tribute to them and of course we all have varying family experiences and varying opinions and that is what makes discussion on some of these very deep and reflective topics so great.

And it is such a terrible shame and loss when friends do come back and suffer Post Traumatic Stress and far worse for those who do not come back at all.

It is a tough call to understand truly what the author was trying to accomplish with his book as powerful as it is.

Thank you for your kind words...I simply wanted to add another viewpoint with examples that I am familiar with to add another dimension. The conversation, discussion and the moderation by Elizabeth S have all been top notch.

Bentley wrote: "Yes, Autumn - your description of your own family is a wonderful tribute to them and of course we all have varying family experiences and varying opinions and that is what makes discussion on some ..."

Thanks Bentley!
Yes I agree also! Elizabeth does an excellent job :).

Thanks for the compliments. (smile)

I'll begin by mentioning that I, too, have many family who served in the military, either for one particular war or for their career. I don't think any of them felt that their choices were curtailed in the way Remarque describes. I think some of the difference comes with the times, and some with the culture, and some with Remarque's focus choice.

As far as the times, I think WWI was significantly different from WWII as far as why people and countries went to war. We've discussed that a lot in other places, and Bentley pointed it out earlier as well, so I won't rehash.

I think there are some cultural differences as well. There are many parts of the USA where children truly believe they can grow up to be anything. Entering the armed forces feels like a choice, because you know you have the option to do something else. In Germany at the time of WWI I don't think the military-aged young men felt that kind of empowerment as much. It was closer to the culture where each boy grew up to take over the family trade from his father.

Lastly, Remarque's purpose in writing the book was to show that war is not glorious. In my copy of the book, there is a paragraph on a page before the book starts that ends by saying that the book "will try simply to tell of a generation of men who, even though they may have escaped shells, were destroyed by the war." I don't know whether Remarque honestly did not think people could rise above the horror or not. Regardless, he did not really show anything like that in the book.

I think Remarque wants his readers to see that (in his opinion) war not only kills many, but also negatively effects those who survive. We don't see any examples of meaningful heroism or a development of inner strength that transcends the horror. Ultimately, everything is hopeless. Anytime there is a little bump of something positive, it is either smashed or reduced to futility.

Elizabeth S wrote: "(...) In one sense I agree that Haie didn't change as much as the others. As you said, he hated being a peat-digger before and he still hates it. But in another sense I think he changed more than the others. Before the war, he was just a peat-digger. Now he has dreams of becoming an NCO, serving out his 12 years (hopefully with the war over), and then being a village policeman. It seems that Haie wouldn't have even dreamed about any of those hopes if he hadn't gone to war...."

Haie's dream went on. He wanted to be not only a village policeman. This is only the English name. He wanted to be a "Landjäger". In those days it was a militarized police force. This police force are roughly comparable with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Canada.

Thanks, Baseni! We really do miss significant little points like that when reading the translation. I was picturing something more like a small-town British Bobbie.

The dispute between Tjaden and Himmelstoß includes several insults. Therefore Himmelstoß is so angry. It is a special problem of the German language. In German there is a big difference between "Du" and "Sie". In English, you can see the difference immediately, both is "you". Himmelstoß should in any case "Sie" have to be addressed. Tjaden said but "du". This was Himmelstoß a great insult and disrespect. In the English translation of this war of words missing in part.

Tjaden schlägt jetzt die Augen auf. "Doch."
Himmelstoß wendet sich ihm zu: "Das ist doch Tjaden,
nicht?"
Tjaden hebt den Kopf.
"Und weißt du, was du bist?" (correct: "Und wissen Sie, was Sie sind?")
Himmelstoß ist verblüfft. "Seit wann duzen wir uns denn?

Elizabeth S wrote: "Autumn, it occurred to me as I was reading your last comment, what is peat? I had a vague notion of mud or manure or something. So here's the dictionary.com answer:

Definition 1: "A highly organ..."

The mining of peat was operated in northwest Germany on the border with the Netherlands. Peat was used as a fuel, horticulture and as a remedy. The work was hard and was poorly paid.

Baseni wrote: "The dispute between Tjaden and Himmelstoß includes several insults. Therefore Himmelstoß is so angry. It is a special problem of the German language. In German there is a big difference between "Du..."

I've been thinking about that, and I don't really see any way to translate that kind of an insult into a language where the two words are the same. By any chance, did the translator add some text that wasn't there in the German to make up for it? I'm guessing that he didn't. Whenever I read this, it doesn't seem that Tjaden was being that rude to a superior officer. Now I get a better picture. I think I'll go make a note in my copy...

Elizabeth S wrote: "I've been thinking about that, and I don't really see any way to translate that kind of an insult into a language where the two words are the same. By any chance, did the translator add some text that wasn't there in the German to make up for it? I'm guessing that he didn't. Whenever I read this, it doesn't seem that Tjaden was being that rude to a superior officer. Now I get a better picture. I think I'll go make a note in my copy...."

You're right. The translator chose a similar version. I do not know whether "Since when have we become so familiar?" an insult assumed in English? A hundred years ago, the "Duzen" in German is a great insult.
Tjaden hebt den Kopf. "Und weißt du, was du bist?"
Himmelstoß ist verblüfft. "Seit wann duzen wir uns denn? Wir haben doch nicht zusammen im Chausseegraben gelegen."
Tjaden lifts his head. "And do you know what you are?"
Himmelstoß is disconcerted. "Since when have we become so familiar? I don't remember that we ever slept in the gutter together?"

Further on a classic quote is mentioned. This is by Goethe. It is from the play "Götz von Berlichingen" and reads:
Tjaden erwidert gelassen und abschließend, ohne es zu wissen, mit dem bekanntesten Klassikerzitat. Gleichzeitig lüftet er seine Kehrseite.
„Er aber, sag's ihm, er kann mich im Arsche lecken!“

Tjaden replies, without knowing it, in the well-known classical phrase. At the same time he ventilates his backside.
"But he, tell him that, he can lick me in the arse!"

Baseni wrote: "You're right. The translator chose a similar version. I do not know whether "Since when have we become so familiar?" an insult assumed in English?..."

Maybe not a huge insult in English, but would be more insulting to a superior officer. It's basically a brush-off, as if saying you are too superior to the other person to even admit acquaintance.

The ventilating of the backside is definitely a significant insult. I keep forgetting about Tjaden doing that.