The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

I will be leaving on vacation tomorrow and will be back on the 15th so I am putting this up early so people will be able to discuss this week without having to wait.

I will post my own thoughts on these chapters upon my return.

Book 6 consists of:


1. AN IMPARTIAL GLANCE AT THE ANCIENT MAGISTRACY.
2. THE RAT-HOLE.
3. HISTORY OF A LEAVENED CAKE OF MAIZE.
4. A TEAR FOR A DROP OF WATER.
5. END OF THE STORY OF THE CAKE.

Before you go on vacation, set your DVR or recorder for Sunday. The Hunchback is on TCM. I love that movie with Charles Laughton even though it's different from the book.

Well, Book 6 hasn't attracted much discussion! In fact, there hasn't been that much discussion of HND at all and I've been wondering why not, particularly given the intensity of the Jane Eyre discussion. Do you think it's possible that there was greater interest in discussing Jane Eyre because it's more character driven and readers react more strongly to character than they do to other elements of a novel? Maybe it's just that everyone is busy!

Anyway, I found the description of Sister Gudule and the rat hole to be quite disturbing.I really know very little about the medieval church, but I find myself wanting to investigate the history and prevalence of these cells in which penitents shut themselves away. Has anyone read about this practice?

Yes, I think there is a lot of digression from the main story in HND, as with the 'treatise' on the history of the church, religion and printing in chapter 2 Book 5. It is difficult to make brief comments about such deep subjects and folks may be overwhelmed by them - I know I have been. It is also the holiday season!

Penitent cults arose out of the plagues of the Middle Ages which people thought were brought on by their sinfulness:-

http://www.penitents.org/sisco_Persev...

There were Dominican Penitent women in Italy but I am not sure how common they were in France and elsewhere. I believe the cult was started by St Catherine of Siena:-

http://www.penitents.org/sisco_Persev...

There was also the cult of the Mary Magdalene in the south of France, which Hugo may have been drawing upon:-

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/davincicode/m...

Kim wrote: "Well, Book 6 hasn't attracted much discussion! In fact, there hasn't been that much discussion of HND at all and I've been wondering why not, particularly given the intensity of the Jane Eyre discu..."
I think Marge is right. Vacation has slowed me down and I have only just caught up to you all. I finally gave up and just skimmed book 3. I just couldn't get through all the descriptive. Now I'm in love with HND. Book 6 is very moving.

Kim wrote: "Well, Book 6 hasn't attracted much discussion! In fact, there hasn't been that much discussion of HND at all."
I am sorry, but I am a little behind with the book, as I am now preparing my sudden move to Europe. That is taking up more time than I thought. As this is my first group read, I do not have much to compare it with, but I think it might really be that feeling with a main character throughout a whole book is more interesting for some people than some descriptive sections. I had this a little with the agrarian descriptions in Anna Karenina myself. Though up to now I really like HND. Monday the movers are coming and I will temporarily move into a hotel, maybe I can catch up then again before finally flying to Europe on 08/26.

Good Luck with the move Hedi - where are you moving too?

I like novels with a lot of description in them but some of Hugo's flights of fancy are even a bit too much for me!

Thinking points from Sparknotes re Book 6 and Frollo:-


'This scene also marks the first time Frollo has used his identity as a priest to an evil end. He was definitely behind Quasimodo's attempted abduction of La Esmerelda, but he would have done anything Frollo asked priest or not. But when Frollo pretends to be concerned about Gringoire's soul in order to learn anything he can about La Esmerelda, he takes his first step toward abandoning his interests in the Church and instead using his priestly attire for his own evil ends. Hugo mirrors Frollo's moral decay and obsessive lust for La Esmerelda with Quasimodo's silent passion for her. Everyone assumes that his torture caused him to be less serious about bell ringing, but in fact, it was the presence of a "rival" that caused him to neglect his beloved bells "for a more beautiful and beloved object." Although Quasimodo almost falls out of sight completely after his torture scene, Hugo is careful to let the reader know that he is constantly watching out for La Esmerelda from the cathedral towers. This (view spoiler)[not only foreshadows his future rescue attempt but also (hide spoiler)] indicates the extent to which La Esmerelda's stunning act of kindness and forgiveness melted Quasimodo's heart of stone.'

From Sparknotes again - another reference to a spider's web (remember Hudgo's arachnophobia):-

'The reader, along with Jehan, finally gets to peek inside Claude's secret cell and find out just how mad he has become. Claude only remains a priest by title and with the clothes he wears. He has rejected God and believes in only one thing: fatality. The recurring theme of fatality dominates this section, especially in the scene where Frollo watches a fly get caught in a spider's web. Many characters in the novel do not believe in free will. For example, when Pierre Gringoire follows La Esmerelda he "resigns his free will" and accepts any direction that she chooses. Similarly, Frollo believes that all actions have been predetermined and that nothing can stop him from catching La Esmerelda. Just as the fly was bound to get caught in the spider's web, he thinks that she is bound to fall into one of his traps. He thus uses this example of fatality to justify his actions, since nothing he or anyone else can do will change the predetermined outcome. As he warns his associate, one should never "meddle with fatality." '

Kim wrote: "Well, Book 6 hasn't attracted much discussion! In fact, there hasn't been that much discussion of HND at all and I've been wondering why not, particularly given the intensity of the Jane Eyre discu..."

I was just thinking this same thought this afternoon as I was reading. I have been enjoying HND but not like I did Jane Eyre. I am always more passionate about character driven books. Which usually results in a great deal of talking outloud to myself :)

Most penitents during the middle ages were very religious. Sister Gudule was not a religious person, she worshipped her child and later worshipped the child's shoe in her cell.  Maybe Hugo was making a mockery of penitents and the "Church" by placing a "wanton" woman in the cell of a penitent. Although Sister Gudule was repenting her negligence of leaving her child unattended, she was not repenting of any sins made against God. Here is a good article about penitents during the middle ages. 

http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/anchore...

MadgeUK wrote: "Good Luck with the move Hedi - where are you moving too?

I like novels with a lot of description in them but some of Hugo's flights of fancy are even a bit too much for me!"

Thanks a lot, Madge. I am going to Germany first for a couple of weeks (or months) and will then probably move to another European country, but it's not clear or official yet. So all my stuff (incl. approx. 600 books) is going into storage here in the US first. Let's wait and see. ;-)

Thanks for that link Seeuuder. Yes, I think Hugo was probably mocking the practice, which often went to ridiculous (and dangerous) lengths such as the entombment described in the article.

The story about Sister Gudule's daughter and Quasimodo really made me think of old changeling myths particularly considering the way in which gypsies are often associated with witchcraft.

In the changeling myth, it is said that fairies will steal away one's children and than either replace the child with one of their own fairy children, or in some versions of the myth they will replace the child with a log or a rock or puppet or something that is made to look like the child but after a time the illusion will fade and the person will realize that their real baby had been stolen.

Great observation Silver:-

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-cha...

Some thoughts....

In many ways Quasimodo’s development and turning against Frollo’s authority is akin to aspects of the Enlightenment movement of the 17C and 18C – challenging the authority of those in power and holding them accountable for their actions. This movement represented compassion and humanity as opposed to the dogma and rigidity of those in authority at the time. Similarly, the Gothic style of architecture, in contrast to the preceding Romanesque style, is a much freer style and represents a certain dissent from other rather dogmatic styles, suggesting dissent from authority and control - a theme Hugo explored in Book 5. Height is also used to suggest man’s aspirations towards ever-greater heights, climbed with considerable ease by Quasimodo, (view spoiler)[while Frollo dies as the result of a fall (hide spoiler)]).

A recurring theme in HND was supposedly inspired by a Greek word, anarkia, which Hugo found scratched on a wall in Notre Dame cathedral. Hugo seems to want to encourage us to think about the way in which our destinies are intertwined, just as the destinies of Quasimodo, Frollo and the others are dependent on one another. Do events occur purely by chance, or is there some element of fate involved? Are we to believe in chaos or divine order?

Just in case it is helpful so some folks who do not have the time to read at the moment, here is a LibriVox audio version of HND:-

http://librivox.org/the-hunchback-of-...

MadgeUK wrote: "Great observation Silver:-

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-cha..."

Very interesting observation and website... I am trying to catch up again.

I was also very moved by Book VI and the link between Paquette la Chantefleurie's (I guess Sister Gudule in Silver's version) daughter and Quasimodo as well as the vast descriptions of their fates. Especially Quasimodo;s torture is so intensely described that it is almost as if you are one of the spectators yourself. To me it was really touching, esp. the moment that Frollo turns around (after all he had done for Quasimodo before and the strong devotion Quasimodo has for him - maybe this has to do with his change in nature, which was described in Book IV) and the moment when La Esmeralda approaches Quasimodo with the desired water.

Seeuuder wrote: "Most penitents during the middle ages were very religious. Sister Gudule was not a religious person, she worshipped her child and later worshipped the child's shoe in her cell.  Maybe Hugo was maki..."

I fully agree with you. She was devoted and worshipped her child almost like a God. The only time God is mentioned in regards to her is when she prayed for a child and received a child. I think that she secluded herself from the real world in order to still be able to worship her child (or her shoe), who represented her whole world.

It is an interesting thought that Hugo might have wanted to mock about the church filling up these cells with lepers and other people (in this case even a true sinner from the church's perspective) instead of real penitents.