Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Here's the thread for discussing the second section of Swann's Way. I'll catch up someday, but meanwhile I know some of you are eager to get posting. So have at it!

I am half way through this section. I am still enjoying the book. I love the characters and the way that he describes them. I've noticed a change in tone, structure and methodology. Firstly, we seem to have jumped back in to events which occurred before the main character was born. How do you think that this fits with his; taste, touch and smell methodology? Secondly, The pace seems to have quickened and the narrative seems more linear and conventional.

I'm so glad to discuss this section. I finished it in two days of picking it up a little too often at work, and spending all my free time taking it in. At one point, I purposefully missed the first L train in Chicago to go by my stop because I wanted to wait at the platform reading. So, in short, I found it compelling.

I think it's quite an interesting narrative technique to shift from a (very personal) first person section to a story that happened before the narrator was born. This seems to be a comment on the fact that lives are shaped, not only by internal motives, but also through events that may seem unrelated and fall completely outside of our control.

This is one of the truest love stories I've read. It's focused on control, infatuation, manipulation; however, I don't get the sense that Swann and Odette should be denigrated for their actions. But the most interesting part is that, even though this novel is firmly set within the belle époque, I recognized many of the lovers' actions in my 20-something American peers. Guess things haven't changed that much.

Casey wrote: "...This is one of the truest love stories I've read...."

Golly, I hope not! As far as I have read/listened (over half of the section), to me it has seemed more a treatise on jealousy than on love!

Well I guess a lot of what passes for romantic love really is some mixture of an overheated imagination, sexual obsession, ego stroking, and jealousy. And probably a bunch of other messy stuff.

The first time I read this Swann section, I found it agonizing. I really, really wished I could give Swann a good shake: "Wake up, you idiot!! You're driving me crazy!" And I wanted to look away, but the narrator, or the author, won't let you do that. Aaargh!

But I've read it 3 times now, and each time, I find that I read it more dispassionately, enjoy it more, and get more out of it. And I swear that as I come closer to being able to read it, and the whole novel, with Proust's own detachment, I also find myself looking at the messiness of real life somehow differently.

Yesterday I read somewhere that reading The Iliad will change your life. Well, so will reading Proust, I think. Just think, by reading both, we might all be completely different people in 2012! :-D

Swann realizes much too late in his involvement with Odette after he questions her about her past affairs and she admits to “two or three” he recalls lines from one Alfred de Vigay in “Journal d’un Poète”: "When one feels oneself smitten by love for a woman, one ought to say to oneself, “What are her surroundings? What has been her life? All one’s future happiness lies in the answer.”

I doubt it would have made any difference. It’s just the way the world of love affairs goes round.

M wrote: "But I've read it 3 times now, and each time, I find that I read it more dispassionately, enjoy it more, and get more out of it. And I swear that as I come closer to being able to read it, and the whole novel, with Proust's own detachment, I also find myself looking at the messiness of real life somehow differently."

It's interesting that Swann has his own moments of detachment, and those are when he seems happiest with his relationship. It's when he wants to control Odette's affection that he is most miserable. The problem is that the Odette he imagines, who he loves, is not the real Odette. But it isn't really love either, it's an infatuation for a person that he has manufactured in his mind. His misery comes from trying to make his imaginary creation match up with the real woman. He is happy to find a correspondence between the two, even if his reasoning is specious, and then he thinks himself "disinterested" and he is able to relax, to enjoy a temporary respite from the symptoms of his disease. That feeling doesn't last long, of course. His disease won't allow it.

Thomas wrote: "...the symptoms of his disease...."

Interesting characterization of Swann's condition.

Among other things, I am struck with having the resources to be able to act as he does towards and with Odette. I'm not convinced Swann would love the Odette he imagines, if she existed.

Lily wrote: "I'm not convinced Swann would love the Odette he imagines, if she existed. "

Great point. His infatuation sort of reminds of what Oscar Wilde said about smoking: "A cigarette is the perfect sort of perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied."

M, If reading The Iliad changes your life, I'd love to know how. :-)

Swann seems to be the most attractive character of this group. He's straightforward, not a climber or a manipulator or a name-dropper. He has a blind spot for Odette, but who of us doesn't for the persons we love?

Roger wrote: "Swann ...not... a manipulator..."

Roger -- I think your perception and mine of a manipulator may differ. It seems to me that at a minimum Swann uses money to manipulate Odette. Is he always successful? No. Does she also manipulate him? Yes!

Swann seems more successful at manipulating himself than anything else, but this is part of the "pathology" of desire. Proust several times describes Swann's love as an illness or an addiction, an unquenchable desire which cannot be fulfilled for long before it becomes ravenous again, like Vintueil's "little phrase" that gives him so much pleasure and then disappears. That lengthy and incredibly sensual description of hearing Vinteuil's sonata at Mme Saint-Euverte's, (p. 358-366 in Davis) could be a read as a metaphor for Swann's desire for Odette. Even this piece of music can't be just a beautiful piece of music, it must be transformed into "actual ideas" which of course go back to the night at Verdurin's, and ultimately to Odette. Everything that happens to Swann is put through the Odette filter -- it's beautiful in a sad way, but it's all so self-inflicted that it's hard not to see it as a bit adolescent at times.

It's an interesting problem. What is one to do with an author whose sensibility is in some ways so foreign -- as it was to me with the good night kiss or the total collapse into memory with the dunked madeleine. Our natural response is to identify with a protagonist. We can dislike. The movement back and forth is tricky.

Lily wrote: "Roger wrote: "Swann ...not... a manipulator..."

Roger -- I think your perception and mine of a manipulator may differ. It seems to me that at a minimum Swann uses money to manipulate Odette. Is ..."

He gives her many gifts, as is (or was) expected for a kept woman. But it all seems above-board to me. They both know what's going on. And yes, it's adolescent, and I think Swann knows it's adolescent, but he can't help doing it anyway.

M wrote: "Well I guess a lot of what passes for romantic love really is some mixture of an overheated imagination, sexual obsession, ego stroking, and jealousy. And probably a bunch of other messy stuff.

T..."

Speaking of the Iliad, isn't it interesting how Proust starts his novel in media res then works to fill us in the 'mythology' of its background? Maybe this is not so obvious in the Iliad (where the audience is supposed to know the background), but in Paradise Lost, for example, Milton starts off with Satan newly fallen, then moves to Adam and Eve after creation and only then takes the time to tell us the whole story of the creation of the world as well as the rebellion of the angels. Proust works in a similar way, after hearing about Swann's 'unfortunate' marriage again and again in Combray and after almost catching a glimpse of Odette, the story is finally revealed to us. To me this gives me a very strong sense of expectation and makes Proust a bit more of a, hmm, page-turner, I guess. Now I can't wait to get on with the book and find out what happens with the characters. I think maybe if the story would have been written in a completely chronological way it would be a lot harder to read because you wouldn't have anything driving you forward.

And, of course, in a way Combray is also 'in media res' because it shows the narrator in the middle/at a crossroad, before he decided which way he wants to go - the Swann way or the Guermantes way.

Thomas wrote: " ... it's all so self-inflicted that it's hard not to see it as a bit adolescent at times. "

The fact that Swann is very far past adolescence is what makes it all so wince-inducing to read. Here he is, the ultimate "man of the world", a bon vivant sailing through life with everything going his way -- then suddenly, for the first time ever, he's hit with something that's beyond his ability to control, or even understand. And it affects every single aspect of his life; he's unable to compartmentalize it at all.


Roger wrote: "Swann seems to be the most attractive character of this group."

He does seem likable, as well as very knowledgeable about art, etc, but isn't he also pretty much wasting his life away, even pre-Odette? I guess he did write the occasional essay, but he mostly seemed to spend his life going from society party to society party and being witty. He's attractive on the surface, as in, it would be enjoyable to spend an evening in his company, which is more than we can say for most of these characters, it's true. But I'd still prefer the grandmother as someone I'd want to be around day after day.

M wrote: "He's attractive on the surface, as in, it would be enjoyable to spend an evening in his company, which is more than we can say for most of these characters, it's true. But I'd still prefer the grandmother as someone I'd want to be around day after day. ."

Through the narrator's eyes I feel like I can empathize with Swann, but at the same time I can't understand his behavior. I think this is because the narrator lets him speak to us in empathetic terms, but at the same time describes him as someone afflicted by a disease. But that's the way we look at our own lives, I think. We look back at our lives in an objective way that lets us diagnose our past, but we can't understand what we've lived until it's over. It's like what Kierkegaard says about our having to live our lives forward, but only being able to understand in reverse. We get to see Swann in the grips of a disease that most of us have experienced as patients, but we understand it like a doctor looking at it objectively as it happens to someone else. It's a bit like Francoise reading the medical book.

Roger wrote: "He gives her many gifts, as is (or was) expected for a kept woman. But it all seems above-board to me. They both know what's going on. And yes, it's adolescent, and I think Swann knows it's adolescent, but he can't help doing it anyway..."

Well, I hardly call Swann's rather excessive questioning of Odette's behaviors outside his presence as "above board", especially when he returns at night to spy on her or keeps searching others for information about her. Although it is certainly direct and above board in the sense of being in the open, he is very insistent in his questioning of her. He may believe himself to have the intent of protecting her, but he seems to be attempting to control Odette and is probably self deceptive about his motives. Also, there is a passage which I haven't been able to find again where he talks about using his funds, or refusal to provide them, to control what she can do -- either for travel or to entertain others. None of these are inherently bad or perhaps inappropriate manipulations, but they certainly seem present to me. (The spying may be a bit much.)

Does Swann see Odette as a "kept woman"? It's what she is, obviously, but it seems like Swann does not really recognize her to be such. He wants her to submit to his control but at the same time wants to believe that she is free.

Regarding Odette's freedom, there is a play on words that I wanted to ask David (or anyone reading this in French) about. It's on p. 359 in the Davis translation, toward the beginning of Swann's reverie (during the party at Saint-Euverte's) about Vinteuil's "little phrase."

Alas, he recalled the accents in which she had exclaimed: "But I will always be able to see you, I am always free!" --she who was never free now! -- ...

Odette is free in the philosophical sense, which is the problem for Swann. She's free, but she isn't free for him. I like the play on the two meanings of "free." I would imagine that the same two meanings exist in French, but I'm not sure.

Swann is tortured by the idea that Odette is being unfaithful to him. He doesn't want to control her exactly--he wants her to be free, but also to freely choose to be faithful to him. Poor fellow.

Odette takes his money and uses it to travel and entertain without him. I'm sure that violates the kept woman code of ethics.

I haven't read far enough to find out if Odette actually turns out to be the unmeetable Mme Swann from "Combray." I can't wait to find out. Nobody tell me!

Roger wrote: "Odette takes his money and uses it to travel and entertain without him. I'm sure that violates the kept woman code of ethics...."

The code expected by men? The one claimed by such women? Are they the same? How are they negotiated, if they are? Are there privileges and freedoms that go with being a kept woman?

For me, part of the fun of Proust is seeing those social expectations pushed up against each other. At places, he seems able to write from the viewpoint of a particularly detached or nonjudgmental observer, while at the same time being a shrewd social critic.

(view spoiler)[Incidentally, hope you'll enjoy the next book. (hide spoiler)]

Roger wrote: "He doesn't want to control her exactly--he wants her to be free, but also to freely choose to be faithful to him. Poor fellow.
"

Put that way it sounds like God's disposition toward Adam and Eve in Paradise Lost.

Roger wrote: "Odette takes his money and uses it to travel and entertain without him. I'm sure that violates the kept woman code of ethics."

Haha! I wonder if there's any such thing? I don't think there is, really. I immediately think of Musetta in Puccini's opera "La Boheme". Musetta merrily spends her elderly "keeper"'s cash to treat her former lover and his friends to food and drink, and it's played for laughs, not outrage.

Funny, though, that I wasn't laughing at all with Odette; I found her behavior reprehensible! How could she treat our poor, foolish Swann this way? Maybe if we could see the story from Odette's POV we'd find her treatment of Swann as funny as we find Musetta's of her poor old fellow.

Here are some views of Zipporah (daughter of Jethro, eventually wife of Moses) from the Botticelli fresco in the Vatican, the "Trials of Moses":

http://www.bergerfoundation.ch/Sandro...
Good full length close-up. (If necessary, select Jethro's daughters.)

http://www.historylink101.com/art/San...
Good single source for image and description.

http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/x-Sch...
By placing one’s arrow over a section of the picture, it can be enlarged. From a Vatican site itself. (It is not necessary to run any software that may have an expired signature. The enlargement will appear and work anyway.)

If you compare this picture with the several places where Zipporah is contrasted with Odette in the text, you may note that Swann even arranges Odette's neck so it assumes the same curve! In an earlier passage, the Narrator writes:

"On his study table, at which he worked, he had placed, as it were a photograph of Odette, a reproduction of Jethro's Daughter. He would gaze in admiration at the large eyes, the delicate features in which the imperfection of her skin might be surmised, the marvelous locks of hair that fell along her tired cheeks; and, adapting what he had already felt to be beautiful, on aesthetic grounds, to the idea of a living woman, he converted it into a series of physical merits which he congratulated himself on finding assembled in the person of one whom he might, ultimately, possess." Bold added.

It is interesting, too, to look at whom the figure of Zipporah is in Moses life and to speculate whether Proust is drawing on still another level of analogy beyond the surface ones. If he does, so far I'd have to stretch interpretation of the text further than I can justify. (Laurele -- do you have any thoughts on the subject? Proust does also introduce "The Madonna and the Pomegranate" into the mix at one point.)

http://www.historylink101.com/art/San...

http://www.billcasselman.com/wording_...
(Has a long digression on the pomegranate.)

Lily wrote: "Here are some views of Zipporah (daughter of Jethro, eventually wife of Moses) from the Botticelli fresco in the Vatican, the "Trials of Moses":

http://www.bergerfoundation.ch/Sandro......"

Here is a sketch of Zipporah that is, as far as my memory takes me, accurate.

http://maidensofworth.org/2007/10/zip...

(Reuel is another name of Jethro.)

Lily wrote: "Here are some views of Zipporah (daughter of Jethro, eventually wife of Moses) from the Botticelli fresco in the Vatican, the "Trials of Moses":

http://www.bergerfoundation.ch/Sandro......"

I thought we agreed to keep this stuff in the "References.." thread?

I believe Eman said if directly related to the text at hand? I thought the relationship of the picture of Zipporah to Odette was. (I'll go back and get his specific comment another time -- I need to be some place this morning.)

Please ignore if it bothers you. I have tried to use judgment. I'm sorry if mine doesn't match yours.

I could do with fewer get-togethers with transcriptions of what every said. Nothing much happens. Things aren't moving along very fast.

Things are never going to move along very fast in any of the volumes of ISOLT. Anyway, the get-togethers are hilarious! You just have to be in the right mood to enjoy them. Waiting for the right frame of mind to descend is the reason I end up reading plenty of Agatha Christie and non-fiction books when I'm in the middle of Proust. I have to admit I've got him on hold right now.

M wrote: "Things are never going to move along very fast in any of the volumes of ISOLT. Anyway, the get-togethers are hilarious! You just have to be in the right mood to enjoy them. Waiting for the right fr..."

They are pretty amusing. I'm enjoying the befuddled Dr. Cottard. I can almost see the get-togethers on stage as silly comedies.

I think it's very interesting how much fuss is made about the use and misuse of words at the Verdurins. Dr Cottard has a strange obsession with idioms and etymology, the confusion/vagueness between the two Vinteuils, the painter's aunt who talks in a completely incoherent way because she's afraid her provincial accent won't be understood, the whole story of Dumas' Fracillon and the inedible Japanese salad. By the way, the Francillon discussion sets Swann in Love in 1887 (when the play was first performed) and if you're interested in the recipe (I was!), you can find it here. It makes Mme Cottard's claim that she has a friend who made one seem a bit more suspicious since it contains mussels and truffles cooked in champagne which (I imagine) must have been pretty expensive even then.

Andreea wrote: "I think it's very interesting how much fuss is made about the use and misuse of words at the Verdurins. Dr Cottard has a strange obsession with idioms and etymology, the confusion/vagueness between..."

Luckily, it's truffle season here in the Perigord, so Francillon will be on the menu this month....

Patrice wrote: "Victoria (vikz) wrote: "I am half way through this section. I am still enjoying the book. I love the characters and the way that he describes them. I've noticed a change in tone, structure and me..."

Patrice, here is how Lydia Davis translated the passage:


The painter had heard that Vinteuil was threatened with mental illness. And he declared that one could perceive it in certain passages of his sonata. Swann did not find this comment absurd, but it bothered him; for since a pure work of music contains none of the logical relationships whose alteration in language reveals madness, madness recognized in a sonata seemed to him something as mysterious as the madness of a bitch, the madness of a horse, though these can indeed be observed.


I don't know if that clarifies anything. I wonder if anyone is reading he French version and can add a perspective on this...

Patrice wrote: "Thanks so much Jim. I'll have to study that. I forget that it's a translation. It sounds so different but I'm not sure, still, exactly what the point is. I have the feeling he is saying somethin..."

Maybe because dogs and horses and sonatas can't go to psychiatrists for diagnosis, yet you know a mad dog when you see one, the painter's statement struck Swann as another mystery of life.

Or something like that...

Patrice wrote: "I think what is stumping me is whether or not there is reason in a sonata. It seems an important point to me because the beginning, combray, felt like a symphony, like poetry. Yet he was expressi..."

So many questions, so little time!

What I get from Proust's sentences is:

1. language has reason and logic
2. when language is distorted or altered in particular ways, we recognize that as madness
3. music, dogs and horses don't have human language/words and the logic/reason we associate with language/words

so

4. saying you can detect madness in music strikes Swann in a funny way, because how can you do that without language?

That's my best shot! Time for dinner, LOL!

Patrice wrote: "...I guess it's got me wondering about what is reason and what is logic and whether or not they can exist without words... ..."


What makes you doubt whether there is reason "in" a sonata? Certainly it is created by a reasoning mind. Certainly it has certain structures. Certainly it uses certain tonal relationships known to be pleasing or otherwise affective on human perception. And we can go on.

I suspect you have read Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ by Daniel Goldman. Does what he has to say impact your thinking about the relationships between "reason", "rationality," "emotion", and "feelings"? He is one of several authors and teachers that have influenced my thinking and attitudes on the subject. I don't happen to consider that an emotional response is necessarily an irrational one -- but also don't find clarifying that statement particularly straightforward.

Patrice wrote: "I just checked and see that you are in France. My husband is from Paris. Are you an ex-pat?"

I am - living in the Perigord Noir, near Perigeux.

My study of psychology of learning (and it is definitely out-of-date and has not been kept current) suggested that emotions and feelings can be the mind's quick response systems to reality. Sure, the frontal lobe has come to process and be able to redirect those early warning systems, but does that make them inherently "irrational"?

I came across this quote attributed to Proust:
The real journey of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes. Maybe the opening 6 pages of waking is a metaphoric waking with "new eyes" which reoccurs throughout the novel. The madeline incident is one example. Do experience and selective memory constitute "new eyes"? Might memory triggered by flavors or smells be a "journey of discovery"? I'm assuming that if new landscape is not necessary, then renewed experience might constitute discovery.

Susan wrote: "I came across this quote attributed to Proust: 'The real journey of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.' Maybe the opening 6 pages of waking is a metaphoric waki..."

I like the possibilities you evoke, Susan. They seem to fit with what Proust has written.

Certainly a piece of music can have a logical structure--theme, development, chordal progressions, tonal centers, modulations, resolutions. I find it amazing that Swann did not know this. It seems he's learning!

Lily wrote: "Here are some views of Zipporah (daughter of Jethro, eventually wife of Moses) from the Botticelli fresco in the Vatican, the "Trials of Moses":

http://www.bergerfoundation.ch/Sandro......"

One of the things that really struck me about this fresco was that it depicted the life of Moses from the murder of the Egyptian overseer who treated the Israelite slave harshly to Moses leading all of the Hebrews held in Egypt to the promised land. The story of Zipporah is also one of supporting her husband Moses in fulfilling his commitments.

The question I have had is whether there are echoes of those larger themes in "Swan's Way." As I said, earlier, I feel as if I would have to interpret the text beyond what I have been willing to do. Yet, a key figure from this picture is so prominent in the text and so central to its story, and the narrator is so multi-layered in his sensibilities, that I also don't get rid of that nagging sense that there is more here than what meets the early glances at the figure of Zipporah alone.

That nagging feeling is reinforced a bit by the way the narrator's grandfather treats Mr. Bloch when the narrator brought him to visit. It feels as if another understory (of persecution and perseverance?) is being forcefully told without bringing it to the surface where it would need to be openly acknowledged. (See pages 92-93 in Davis.)

Patrice wrote: "Victoria (vikz) wrote: "I am half way through this section. I am still enjoying the book. I love the characters and the way that he describes them. I've noticed a change in tone, structure and me..."

Well, I've just finished this section and I must admit that, like Patrice, I didn't enjoy this section as much as the others. I found the characters exasperating. I too found the discussions of music interesting. But, my question moves us onto another topic. What do you feel about the manner in which the questions of gender and sexuality are dealt with within this section of the work?

Victoria (vikz) wrote: "...What do you feel about the manner in which the questions of gender and sexuality are dealt with within this section of the work? ..."

First of all, I don't know how I would characterize how questions of gender and sexuality are dealt with within "Swann in Love." Have you formulated one?

I did feel that the emphasis was on the possessive and jealousy aspects of love, rather than some others, such as caring and mutual delight.

When Swann asks Odette if she has ever had a lesbian encounter, after a little hemming and hawing she gives a direct and more or less honest answer. Why on earth? A lie delivered with utmost sincerity would have made things so much simpler for her. Does she have scruples? Of what sort?

Roger wrote: "When Swann asks Odette if she has ever had a lesbian encounter, after a little hemming and hawing she gives a direct and more or less honest answer. Why on earth? A lie delivered with utmost sinc..."

One of the wonders of the work is how questions of sexuality and sexual behavior are presented as both "well known" and "hidden." Consider the sequence with Bloch and the narrator's great-aunt. (Page 95 of Davis.)

One isn't told whether the Narrator had anyone to tell his tale of overseeing Mlle. Vinteuil and her friend. We saw the Narrator simply forbidden to visit his uncle again after meeting the 'pink lady' there. We are constantly made aware M. Swann had made an unfortunate marriage, although the details are carefully avoided. These many years after ISOLT was published, it feels a powerful critique of social expectations and hypocrisy. (Even the author's decisions about how to characterize the Narrator?)

Patrice wrote: "I'm behind in the reading but I just got to a part that I think explains the that paragraph about the irrational in music. When Swann asks Odette to "give him the little phrase from Vinteuil's son..."

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around Swann's obsession with Odette. Swann has some issues. I'm not sure exactly what they are yet, but his behavior cannot be completely caused by irrational love.

I realize I'm not saying much here, but something is amiss with Swann.

Susanna wrote: "Although Proust has some sympathy for Swann, he is not entirely sympathetic. As some others have mentioned, the "Swann in Love" section is quite tedious in parts. I'm thinking that Proust intended the reader to be a bit bored by Swann's obsession..."

I'm actually more than bored with Swann. I think he's unbalanced. He's willing to attribute imaginary good qualities to the Verdurin's "little clan" because they create a place for him to meet Odette, but Swann has the wealth, connections and experience to whisk her off into whatever world(s) he wants to. So when he leaves behind his life to squeeze into and distort his perceptions of her world to fit his obsessions, well... it's just creepy!

And then at the end of the chapter, Swann hears (apparently accurately) that Odette really does hold him in high regard. What are we to make of that? Does she simply consider him the most worthy of all her customers?