Transgressive Fiction discussion

I've read somewhere that post 9/11 that either the appetite for TG fiction had gone down or that publishers were more reluctant to release TG literature. Most of the books I come across in this genre are 90's or earlier, the most famous recent(ish) being American Psycho, Fight Club, Trainspotting.

Are there any recent contenders for classics of the future or is TG so out of favour that there aren't that many dysfunctional anti-heroes about?

I'm not complaining that it's not a popular genre at the moment. Part of the appeal is that these books don't appear on Richard & Judy lists, I’d just like to see some new releases.

Not sure if this would fit your appetite but - cost is low for the risk of checking the book out. It is post 9/11, a "protest novel". I'm in the holiday cheer and I'd happily give an ebook copy to interested readers free. Just send me a direct message. Anyways - apologize for being forward but I saw this thread and I figured transgressive fans and other maladjusted folks might like it...

Discontents

Emory Walden is a talented writer and street artist at odds with the corporate America of his twenty-something peers. He can’t remember how he ended up hospitalized needing a risky surgery to save his life. Someone tried to kill him.

He suspects his involvement with the enigmatic Fletcher Spivey in a plot to spark a political uprising in the U.S. has been infiltrated. But he’s not sure who the nebulous adversary is.

If he can uncover the infiltrator before the surgery, he can find out who wants him dead and warn Spivey in time to save the movement. But the deeper he digs, the less certain he is that anything is as it seems.

see more discontentsbook.com

Trying yo find a publisher for TG work is hard. When bullshit celebrity crap , chick-lit &cookery sells so well. Finding someone willing to take a risk. Its not new but have you read 'Apathy and other small victories'?

Ha - just read 'Malice' epic farce. If you like your Irvine Welsh, Chuck Palahniuk, you will love this. Just so funny. I feel like I discovered him first!

I just read a new book called Ivyland by Miles Klee. It's kind of half dystopian half transgressive and I thought it was really solid. Dark humor, miracle virgin mary trees, back alley surgeries for poor people trying not to go crazy...

Hi Wes, (message 6) Glad you liked it! Thanks for the kind words.

Thanks for inviting me to this group Redroc. I said I'd cut and copy what I put in the other post, so here it is:

Behind the Hood by Marita A. Hansen. I think it's transgressive. I'll use the words in the intro to this group. It has "controversial subject matter (very much in New Zealand), repulsive characters (Tama and his aunty), antisocial behaviours (Tama and his aunty), grim storylines (yes), bizarre settings (not really, it's set in New Zealand) and other stuff that the normals don't like (not sure about this. But Tama is very offensive). And the chapters are structured unusually in the way it gives you loads of different viewpoints.

Though, this book doesn't seem to fit in many groups. It's crosses the line for being YA, way too rough, violent and with sex scenes, and it's not like US urban fiction due to the different setting. I think it's transgressive, but it also has elements that may not allow it to be totally in this category either. Damn, can't define it.

Palahniuk's been very public about the idea that transgressive lit is dead post-9/11, but I think we're right to say here that reports of its death are greatly exaggerated. It's moved a bit out of the mainstream in the U.S., and yes, most agents and publishers don't want to touch it (trust me on this). But it's continued to flourish without interruption in Europe (especially France) and Japan -- where it's not exactly mainstream, though certainly more so.

Just my two cents.

Julian is right. Why gamble on risky, edgy work when you can guarantee sales with a celebrity, bullshit cookery book. Or a bullshit 'my story' celebrity book, or a safe, fuzzy, cuddly book. Much in the way of the music industry with downloads, there is a state of flux. So many are betting safe. There are publishers out there though, who want to cut deep, like Cutting Edge Press.

(Will get hated for this) Palahniuk has run out of his pre-published ideas, hence his statement. Thats how it seems to me. His early books are very different to the current ones. The early ones are of ideas that distilled before he was published, the fruit of frustration etc. But there is only so much of that dark oil seam to drill. At some point your ideas, if that many books produced will be fresh ideas.Harvested post success. They seem to be more mainstream and have the desire to be accepted by the establishment as a credible writer, rather than the 'fuck it-ness' of the old.

For as long as there are shitty jobs, shitty bosses, masses of people that you just plain hate but have to be nice too, drugs and drink to numb the senses, consequences of the drugs etc. There will be transgressive fiction.

Err-hum.. shameless whore that I am, Seems Malice is on promo at the moment, £1.75, cheaper than ta hit of crack... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Malice-in-Blu...

Whoreing over.

That's part of an overall conservatism in publishing today, Jonny. With publishers facing declining sales and still very fearful of the demise of brick-and-mortar stores, the book industry has increasingly reaped the bulk of its revenue from only a few authors, who get the paid placement in bookstores and the advertising budget. It's increasingly rare for a mid-range author to get the same treatment.

As a result, the middle range has largely disappeared, dividing publishing into haves and have-nots, even among those lucky enough to get a book contract. The "haves" seeming get to publish anything -- look at how poorly edited big-name authors are, even literary names like Franzen. Then "have-nots" have to battle it out with little promotion for a chance to break into the big time.

If they fail, they often won't get a second book contract: agents and publishers are saying it's harder, from their perspective, to get a second book published than to get a first. That's a biased, insider point of view, but it does reflect this bifurcated reality.

You'd think the great odds of a "flop" would encourage publishers to be MORE willing to take risks, since even a 5% chance of something different breaking out would be an improvement. But instead, publishers are so fearful that they're playing it safe, and it's very hard to interest them in material that doesn't have an already well-defined and popular genre.

It's a sad state of affairs, and it's also counter-productive, I think, for the publishers, because it encourages self-publishing using new methods like digital. The publishers have already started to use this as a breeding ground, so that authors can be snatched up after they've demonstrated an audience.

Looooong explanation -- sorry. But that's my take on why transgressive lit is in its current position.

I would defend Palahniuk, though. Most people I know think he's slid badly, but I think the dominant argument isn't that he's run out of ideas -- Tell-All and Damned are certainly not about normal subjects for him, and I think that's to be commended. (Unlike most of my friends, I still read them all.) The complaint, I think, is that he's stylistically spinning his wheels -- that it all reads like another Palahniuk book, rather than something new, the way Fight Club felt upon first publication.

Having said that, Jonny, you're right: the transgression is certainly less evident in his work, and yes, Palahniuk's no longer frustrated. To hear him discuss his pre-Fight Club pain is to understand that he's no longer in the same place. Snuff, which had a very transgressive subject, didn't have the same angry edge. I don't know that this is a fatal flaw, but it has changed his work.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking chuck. I love his body of work, simply he has run out of the original muse of what made him write. Now he draws thoughts from newer and invented material and I love that. Fight Club and Damned are so different, but both great work. He reminds me of old school attitudes to music. Bands like U2, Cure, Counting Crows, what ever the band, they produced albums. Many over many years and you grew with them. Unlike today and its supermarket culture of disposable artist 'Who's new?'. I have no issue with the more mainstream Chuck, it's still dark, but less slacker disaster like Choke and Fight Club. Haunted sighted a change for me - it was about writers etc.

@Angela, I think like a lot of genres 'transgressive' has fuzzy edges and is sometimes difficult to pin down, but anyway from your description I think it sounds like it fits the bill and would definitely be of interest to people in the group.

On a sidenote, I saw someone's goodreads profile one time espousing 'clean fiction' - no swearing, no violence, no drugs, etc which strikes me as basically the opposite of transgressive fiction.

@Julian, I'm wondering about the areas where transgressive is doing well, presumably Murakami is the main author in Japan but could you tell me any of the French ones? I'm always on the lookout for more avenues to explore.

Steve wrote: "@Angela, I think like a lot of genres 'transgressive' has fuzzy edges and is sometimes difficult to pin down, but anyway from your description I think it sounds like it fits the bill and would defi..."

Lol, well, that person most definitely should not read Behind the Hood, because there is loads of foul language, violence, sex and drugs in that book. I think they will start hyper-ventilating once they hit Tama's chapter. BUT, I've heard South Aucklanders speak, and it's realistic. There's f this, mf that, c this all over the place.

Angela wrote: "Steve wrote: "@Angela, I think like a lot of genres 'transgressive' has fuzzy edges and is sometimes difficult to pin down, but anyway from your description I think it sounds like it fits the bill ..."

I just saw your post, Angela. You think I've got foul language, eh? lmao. Anyway, who's this person? I might friend them. They might get my book on the banned list :) That's a career boost.

Marita wrote: "Angela wrote: "Steve wrote: "@Angela, I think like a lot of genres 'transgressive' has fuzzy edges and is sometimes difficult to pin down, but anyway from your description I think it sounds like it..."

Yeah, it's foul, but it's very entertaining :)

Steve wrote: On a sidenote, I saw someone's goodreads profile one time espousing 'clean fiction' - no swearing, no violence, no drugs, etc which strikes me as basically the opposite of transgressive fiction..."

Ha ha, I just love it when a "clean fiction" type stumbles across a transgressive book, the reviews are excellent. I think I read one for American Psycho were she (I think it was a she) was nearly ill and had nightmares for several days. I was curious to ask why on earth did she read it in the first place? I deliberately look out for the one and no star reviews to see if someone has been scarred for life!!! Does that make me evil?!

@Steve In France, transgressive lit has been part of a larger, cross-arts movement that goes along with New French Extremity in cinema. But I can point to Olivier Pauvert's Noir: A Novel as one of the more well-known examples of French transgressive lit.

@Jonny, that's very well said -- and fair -- about Pahalniuk.

@Redroc, looking for traumatized reviews is smart, actually. "Scarred for life" is extremely high praise, I would think. Wow, that's affecting literature, after all. If they can't look at the world the same way again, all the better.

Julian wrote: ""Scarred for life" is extremely high praise, I would think..."

Part of a review of American Psycho below, I know that read on its own, out of context with the full review, isn't fair on the reviewer. Anyway that aside, I'm sure BEE would feel proud to know the effect he has had on some people!:

"I stopped reading when I found myself literally on the verge of vomiting, and I am still haunted and disturbed by concepts and imagery that have been burned into my brain forever."

Cheers Julian, I will check that out :)

@Redroc
I go straight to the crappy reviews first too, kind of like ebay :) Also I think it's quite funny to see comments along the lines of "this book is so appalling that I haven't read it and don't intend to".

As for new transgressive, I saw an ad today for this Lionel Asbo by Martin Amis, out later this year, looking forward to that :)

I tend to read or like the books with poor reviews ha! 'Scarred for live is good! I read that folk have fainted at the reading of Paulanuik's Guts. I'm at Uni with a guy who went to the reading of Malice in Blunderland where one guy vomited from laughing and a lady walked out saying it's sick. (Author's commenting above!)

Ellis Sharpe Is my tip (And me!) Dead Iraqis: Selected Short Stories, and his other other stuff is good!

Jonny wrote: "Trying yo find a publisher for TG work is hard. When bullshit celebrity crap , chick-lit &cookery sells so well. Finding someone willing to take a risk. Its not new but have you read 'Apathy and ot..."

Jonny wrote: "Trying yo find a publisher for TG work is hard. When bullshit celebrity crap , chick-lit &cookery sells so well. Finding someone willing to take a risk. Its not new but have you read 'Apathy and ot..."

Reading it now. (About 1/2 way through)Enjoying the hell out of it so far : )

Timothy wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Trying yo find a publisher for TG work is hard. When bullshit celebrity crap , chick-lit &cookery sells so well. Finding someone willing to take a risk. Its not new but have you r..."
Apathy is a damn good read innit!
Shameless plug - if you like that... You will love Malice in Blunderland - shameless plug over lol

So can we plug our stuff on here? Free samples of books? Short stories? I want people the read stuff, not just do the big Amazon like crap! No-body is reading anyone else's work but all liking each other on amazon! Hate that! cheers!

So here's my book, Independent publisher...have a little read, bookmark all that crap..good little site.... http://www.skoobebooks.co.uk/books/tr...
Or e-book versions...samples and other bits a stories here http://jottify.com/writer/nickclarke/

The polar opposite to 'clean' Gibbings is doing his book for $1.24 (77p) on amazon. Not sure what the deal is but on twitter he's been doing this 'help me piss off some folks' - this seems to be a theme (He signed 200 books with cocks) lol As you are on here, who are you pissing off?

Have a peek at the reviews, it is dark but very funny stuff.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Malice-in-Blu...

About drinking, not glorifying it just telling it how it is... http://jottify.com/works/the-bot... Also links to other work, Good site better than a blog, more people read stuff, other writers comment; sell stuff, free downloads and so on (No I don't work for them!)

Hey all, new here
I've found some great TG by indie authors, here's what I've read recently. Kind of flips the roles, very intriguing
-Joey
http://www.amazon.com/Throwaway-Kids-...

Nira/Sussa is my transgressive novel that was awarded a Ph.D. for literature. Not kidding. 10 years in the writing, 2 more just in editing... and finally out. Sorry for the plug, and many thanks.

i guess i could suggest Trainspotting by Irvin Welsh

its quite sad TG is being sweeped under a carpet of new wave shite. but i dont think the phase of celebs book will last long

back to Irvine Welsh he has recently published Skagboys which is a sequel to Trainspotting carrying on the lives of the characters (so think LEss Than Zero to Imperiel Bedrooms)

though the book is written in a scottish voice but has a lot of great imagery and thoughts of the main character

and i stand by books are better than movies

Everything Welsh does is good in my humble opinion, Skagboys too is very good. Not as funny, but as good.

Problem is, bigger publishers, being a business, don't do what they say & search out new or risky talent. It is easier and better for the directors to pump out cookery and celeb memoir shit. I got turned down by three big publishers, so went indy. Now my book is being made into a film, two have tried to buy the rights and reprint with a new cover featuring the man character's actor on the cover etc.

I know what you mean about film to book though. Having been asked to help screenwrite the book, it is bloody hard! Have struck luck by getting a dude called Kieron Hawks as director. He is a genius and the nest Kubrick, his work is mind blowing! So I think it will rock!

Hello--First Post: Newbie to GR and Group. Published erotica author. Former Film and TV writer. My true voice is in Transgressive Lit. The Angel-Demon-Human dichotomy of it all--I do think TG has a 'heart,' so-to-speak. Agree on the challenges surrounding TG publishing. Been "out of the loop" a while but seems Grove is the only worthwhile pub. Maybe it's the bit of Bohemian in me but I'm just sitting with my work, tweaking it up to publish either free online or just go with self publishing. Many scribes seem to have that "personal story" feel whereas the author might not present the author in a way that makes the work "important." For me the trick is to take out the personal element as I'm not actually Henry Miller, Kathy Aker, Palahniuk, Burroughs, Bukowski. Seems that the UK and Germany has the audience, the US--no. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Grove has been great forever. Nice call, Jonathan.

Hey thx. First post. Just wanted to give a little thought on this real tough-sell genre. Love Grove. Real hard to get "in" but I kind think we need more pubs like Grove. Alternatives. Seems the UK & Germany has the readership cemented. And Palahniuk (fave, of course) has the upper edge - "monopoly." but just as Coming of Age and Period film scripts [in Hollywood] are hardest sells, need more "risk-takers" on the pub side. Random example: Forest Gump took something like 13 years to even be considered, but those "risky" genres... just ugh. I think it's not as risky as it might otherwise seem. That's all.

Hey thx. First post. Just wanted to give a little thought on this real tough-sell genre. Love Grove. Real hard to get "in" but I kind think we need more pubs like Grove. Alternatives. Seems the UK & Germany has the readership cemented. And Palahniuk (fave, of course) has the upper edge - "monopoly." Just as Coming of Age and Period film scripts [in Hollywood] are hardest sells, need more "risk-takers" on the pub side. Random example: Forest Gump took something like 13 years to even be considered, but those "risky" genres... just ugh. I think it's not necessarily as risky as it might otherwise seem. That's all.

Jonathan wrote: "Hey thx. First post. Just wanted to give a little thought on this real tough-sell genre. Love Grove. Real hard to get "in" but I kind think we need more pubs like Grove. Alternatives. Seems the UK ..."

Shouldn't be. The demand is there. I thought my response was quite funny, I blogged my piss take reply: http://jonnygibbings.wordpress.com/20...

I agree passionately that we need more risk-takers... sadly, the state of publishing argues against it, at least at the big houses. I started Martian Lit http://martianlit.com in part to be a home for this kind of stuff. I'm quite proud of what's gone up on the website. It's still a start-up, but it's growing. In any case, I think a lot of people are hungry for this kind of material, or at least I have to assume so because I am. Smart and new can go together...

Julian wrote: "I agree passionately that we need more risk-takers... sadly, the state of publishing argues against it, at least at the big houses. I started Martian Lit http://martianlit.com in part to be a home ..."

Good on ya Julian.I'd say they are hungry for it. Will pimp your site where I can dude

you guys keep the hope of tg writing alive
im sure the phase of fluffy vampires and all that will dwell over
mself, ive written a few things here and there and im sure you guys have too.
theres still an audience for it,
will have to keep checking the link thank you for that :)

Thank you, Johnny! It's much, much appreciated. Thank you too, Amandeep!

Yeah, when people think "Fifty Shades of Grey" is shocking, you know the culture needs a good kick in the ass.

Thats because these bored Housewives reading 50 shades, have never heard of Anais Nin, Henry Miller, Anne Sexton, of the Marquis! All these folks needed to do was pick up a copy of Penthouse Forum anytime in the last 50 years. Let them read Genet and Rechy now... Let them read Hubert Selby jr. and get read shocked!

LOL. Great points, Grant!

I've recently published a transgressive novel http://www.amazon.com/Autumns-Odyssey... you can preview inside the book. The synopsis goes as:

A twenty-something-year-old runaway searches for "home" down the yellow brick road's underworld of crime bosses, strippers, and a warped lover who wears a stitched-up happy face mask in this transgressive road trip down third-eye theology, drugs 101, and dangerous philosophy.

Autumn is bottoming out in the great below while working as a call girl who accompanies lonely customers and entertains married men. Her self-imposed black dress code and colour spectrum of wigs contrasts her optimistic taupe cardigan friend, April, and prescription meds addict, Valerie Valley, who debate their tao whether hope is a hoax if God is dead.

Every day bleeds into tomorrow as her next client is another man further down Darwin's evolutionary chart, until she meets Dylan, a stalky client who cuts above the rest and shows her the young sexy stupid secrets of a very strange new world.

Lemme know if you're interested. It's also available via Kindle e-books for .99cents http://www.amazon.com/Autumns-Odyssey...

Re previous comments on the potential audience and publishers needing to take risks -- don't mean to sound cynical -- but I don't think most of what the people on this thread consider transgressive is very salable these days.

There are plenty of books out there doing well that involve transgressive behavior. But ultimately they seem to be books that support "normal" values. For instance, please don't shoot me, but the s/m relationship at the core of Fifty Shades IS transgressive (and the reason why Bret Easton Ellis is creaming to write the screenplay. Dexter is transgressive but the novels have copped out by involving the idea of "the dark passenger" as an actual supernatural entity, and the television show has copped out by making Dexter into a kind of superhero/avenger. Most vampire romance is transgressive but made safe by the idea that it's by nature a fantasy.

The "classic" transgressive fiction, with characters who really live unapologetically on the edge has become passe -- the mass of readers don't get it or don't find it entertaining or feel like it's been done. You can only write Last Exit to Brooklyn, or Trainspotters, or American Psycho once -- and each of those books is very much of its time.

That's not to say there isn't an audience, but it's a small boutique one and someone would have to be crazy (or have a large trust fund) to start a publishing house specializing in the genre.

The nice thing about self-publishing is that books written in this "boutique" genre can be published cheaply and consumers can find their stuff. The problem is it's not always that easy to find. I'm not even sure a lot of civilians unfamiliar with the genre even know what they've found when they've found it.

Since going the indy route with my novel, Loisaida, a few years ago, I now understand why agents had a problem with it. It's found an audience but a small one and some people, even among those who like it, don't necessarily "get it." While some customer reviews show an awareness of the obvious influences, other readers think of it as a traditional thriller with maybe some extra sex, drugs and cannibalism thrown in. One reviewer mistook it up for "social realism" in the John Steinbeck tradition, which was good for a laugh.

A couple of people called it a "cult novel" which ultimately it is. It just happens to be a very small diehard cult.

If anyone here wants to check it out, a large chunk is available for browsing at http://books.google.com/books?id=8jN5... and you can find it in paperback or e-book in the usual places.

Marion, I think you hit a large part of it all right on the head with the definition of such a genre. Perhaps as a cult novel thus implying a small or limited or even extremely limited audience and the idea that for whatever bizarre 'reason' these transgressive novels, at least the ‘big hits’/sellers seem yet to be written more than once (in a more general sense than not.) Fight Club then Choke for example, but Fight Cub if any would be Palahniuk's "one [of many] hit/s" though likely a terrible example of my point. Perhaps the transgressive novels that garner praise from the wider arena, from Miller to Palahniuk, Acker, Cooper (Frisk), are often one hitters simply due to the subject itself being most appreciated by a limited audience, again in general. I think numerous factors play a role, say the film and its campaign for Fight Club, it did do a lot for the book. Defining this rather conflicting in itself genre with quite a broad set of themes within its own definition might help us unravel what it is we’re writing, selling, marketing, and even thus to have our own goals or writer’s intent more specifically intended, we all know it’s key: who are we writing whatever we’re writing for, who is our audience? Even as art, I think to simply consider redefining certain books’ genres [also our own, and even for me, just thinking this out is helping myself understand better what it is I am writing and to whom] within the transgressive ballpark. To refer to some transgressive novels as being a hard sell by thinking in terms of term cult novel [then detailing which transgressive themes are within, whether, drugs, mental illness, dysfunction, crime, distorted reality, erotica, etc.] to me, though I’m not an agent but a writer, an artist, we might then have a sale, given (again) the risk taking of a cult novel becoming a cult classic. That’s what Fight Club to me really was and is. And is still a favorite. Anyway, here at three in the morning my two cents that transgressive could simply be considered cult fiction and cult fiction that sells thus a cult classic, with [whichever of the many] transgressive elements that may be most prevalent in the prose. Nothing transgressive but such film scripts as Forrest Gump took well over a decade to sell. There are countless others. And Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I think we’re really talking about who is Picasso and who is the undiscovered/unseen Picasso in a way. That’s a whole other topic though. Forgive me if I’m a little scattered, a bit of executive dysfunction going on—LOL –JH

Jonathan wrote: "Marion, I think you hit a large part of it all right on the head with the definition of such a genre. Perhaps as a cult novel thus implying a small or limited or even extremely limited audience and..."

As for Fight Club in particular, as you point out the movie probably helped enormously, but beyond that, the book hit on a frustration that a lot of men -- especially young men who were striving to live a certain kind of conformist life could identify with. It's transgressive, but it's transgressive for the masses, while much of Bukowski's work (for instance) never goes out of print, but never topped any best seller list, and few of his novels have been hit films.

If you're looking for a transgressive novel, feel free to check out Murder and Other Distractions. It's free this week on Amazon, so even if you hate it, you're only out a few clicks.
http://www.amazon.com/Murder-and-Othe...