The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Two thread for the next Presidential Series selection (John Quincy Adams).

The week's reading assignment is:

Week One - January 16th - January 22nd -> TWO p. 25 - 52

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library. Bryan's edition is ISBN: 0679404449 (hardcover)

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be your moderator for this selection as he is our lead for all Presidential selections. We hope you enjoy Week Two of this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bryan

by Paul C. Nagel

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Two

We follow along in JQA's life as he explores Europe. He was in St. Petersburg with Francis Dana in the hope of Catherine the Great recognizing the U.S. However, it failed, and JQA worked his way to Holland, taking the tourist route. By 1782, he went to Stockholm where he enjoyed "rubbing elbows" with the women and the society. By January 1783, JQA was in Denmark, then Hamburg. He didn't write to his father on this stretch as it seemed he was soaking in society and culture. By April 1783, he was in Holland working with a tutor, Charles Dumas, until his father came home from working on the peace treaty. JQA finally wrote to his mother and it did not go well. She responded that he needed to defer to her and his father. Father and son head to England for a vacation and meet Abigail and Nabby. They return to France and JQA's relationship with Nabby got closer. John and Abigail decide it was best for JQA to return to America and enter Harvard.

In July 1785, JQA landed in New York City. He was disappointed by NYC women, but got a chance to meet with his friend, Jacques Le Ray, and they both went to Hartford Connecticut to meet Ezra Stiles, the president of Yale.

JQA went to Boston and Braintree before he went to see Harvard President Joseph Willard. Willard found JQA deficient in Greek and Latin and told him to take the test again, and if he passes, then he could come in as a junior. Crushed, JQA went to study with Uncle John Shaw in Haverhill MA. He worked hard, but still had time to flirt with women. He passed the Harvard exam and he enjoyed the college life. He liked math and the sciences and enjoyed being around people his own age. When he graduated, JQA's parents expected him to be a lawyer and go into public service.

What are your thoughts about JQA's trip through Europe?
A good escape from the parents?

My initial impression is he was like any teenager. He was enjoying the scenery, girls and spending too much money.

JQA does appear to be showing an arrogant streak regarding his entrance to Harvard. It would be difficult to accept that you have studied at great universities, traveled the world, can read/speak many languages, then be told you are not good enough on first impression.

I'm curious to hear what others are thinking.

Thanks Bryan for doing the set up.

Bentley wrote: "Thanks Bryan for doing the set up."

Your welcome, Bentley

Rodney wrote: "My initial impression is he was like any teenager. He was enjoying the scenery, girls and spending too much money.

JQA does appear to be showing an arrogant streak regarding his entrance to Harva..."

Good comments, Rodney. I agree, a teenager finally getting free and living it up. You don't see too many signs of struggle between work and play here.

Your comment about arrogance. I was going to bring this up soon, because it is very interesting. What does this say about JQA? Generally, I find arrogance comes with insecurity.

In general I would agree that a great deal of arrogance appears to come from insecurity, however that is not to discount those who come across as acting superior when in reality they have confused happiness with extreme self-worth. It is a distinction I see more as I get older.

In considering your question, the Steve Jobs bio I recently finished came to mind first. Clearly, Jobs was an arrogant person who under the surface was dealing with a great deal on insecurity. Like JQA, Jobs was able to find a way to work the two together and achieve great success. I will openly admit I know little about JQA other than he was John Adam’s son and President. I’m assuming from those two things he was very similar to Jobs but I expect we will find, like Jobs, JQA will leave a lot of shattered relationships over time. I’m anxious to find that out.

The second thing that came to mind is JQA almost seems like he developed his arrogance in a way young people often do. He does not seem to realize the advantages he had. In a lot of ways he probably was one of the smarter, best educated people in the room wherever he was. He had advantages and access to books that very few would have had. In addition, his parents were highly educated and demanded a great deal out of him.

I almost equate his initial disappointment by failing to wow the Harvard facility, to a star High School Athlete who arrives on Campus and finds out he’s got a lot to learn to get on the field. In that case, coaches immediately recognize the talent but need to mold the character. (At least the good coaches) Up till then, they have gotten by on talent, however to be truly great they will now have to work at it. JQA almost seemed to be in that position. He thought he would get by on being superior and found out that if he wanted to achieve great things, he’d have to work at it. To his credit, he did appear to learn that lesson.

You make some good statements, Rodney, they make a lot of sense. We must remind ourselves he was young.

Don't forget to cite the author:

Walter Isaacson

Bryan wrote: "What are your thoughts about JQA's trip through Europe?
A good escape from the parents?"

I loved his youthful journey through Europe. The fact that he took the long route and was delayed at his arrival shows that he was relishing his freedom from his parents. Not so different from teens today, however I don't know if I would have been comfortable doing all that he did at such a young age!

Exactly, Heather, I don't think I'd allow my son to do what he did. However, you get a sense he was pretty mature for his age, and I suppose kids had to mature in this time period...you had to make a living at a young age...parents death are higher due to disease.

It is interesting when we get to the section where JQA finally writes to Abigail. He writes:

"Her badgering of him, a practice that would persist whether JQA was abroad or in the United States, made blatantly evident her need to dominate." (p. 30-31)

What are your thoughts about his conclusion? I think we are in a disadvantage a little, because we did not read the primary documents that he did.

I should remind people new to the discussion, that I post biographical material and other links on the Glossary:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

It is a spoiler thread, so feel free to go beyond the reading there, but in this thread, we stick to the weekly reading material.

I liked the part the author was discussing the one hand JQA as defender of customs: pregnant women dancing and women being more active in society. On the other, JQA supporting dancing and being unchaperoned. The author talked about JQA being a more "passionate Adams" compared to others in his lineage. Just being a young man or something more??

Does passionate mean a ladies man? Or does passionate mean more emotional or ill tempered? Or just high spirited? Or possibly more sensitive and sympathetic?

Hard to tell what is meant.

It is hard to tell; I got the impression it was emotional and high spirited. I also got the impression he was more "in tune" with the great questions of life, literature, etc., this part of the human experience.

Interesting; I wonder who he took after more in terms of his temperament - his Dad or Abigail.

Bentley wrote: "Interesting; I wonder who he took after more in terms of his temperament - his Dad or Abigail."

It is a good question, Bentley. Does anyone have some ideas?

It could be mix. I see him worrying a lot like his mother, but John Adams was well schooled in philosophy and literature. He liked to talk about such things to Jefferson in their retirement.

JQA's discussions about women are interesting. He writes, "most of our damsels are like portraits in crayons, which at a distance look well, but if you approach near them, are vile daubings." (p. 44) And he studies them like a scientist: who marries and who does not? I like how his cousin Betsy Cranch and sister Nabby called him out on it.

He seems to be quite excessively fastidious and a nit picker.

Bentley wrote: "He seems to be quite excessively fastidious and a nit picker."

Indeed and displaces his frustration and anger to these women.

Odd, his mother was doting and if he were frustrated - I would have thought it was against his father than his mother. Hard to see where his dislike of women is coming from - which seems to be coming through in his discussions.

It appears to me that even though his mother was doting, he didn't seem to respect her a great deal. (I am uncomfortable making a blanket statment that he showed/contained no respect for his mother.)

I feel that JQA was away from his mother for so long, that he felt she should not have control over his life. This may have lead to an assumption on the part of JQA that all women were either not smart enough to match up with him or were overbearing.

Either method is showing arrogance and immaturity in my opinion. As the father of a teenager, not much has changed over time.

All these interesting comments - and I am only one psychology course close to 50 years ago "educated" in the attitude things. I think that he developed a lot of self confidence on his travels which gave him "celebrity" which increased much I am sure his self confidence - so a very self confident young man with these experiences, who will speak up, could easily seem arrogant wneh maybe what he is is confident with a much larger and wider base than most Americans regardless of age.

His attitudes about young women is from a young man in a sexually repressive society for before marriage. (A friend of mine from Sri Lanka - 30 years ago - had quite an eye opening experience coming from straight laced Sri Lanka to do graduate work here in the States) - His mother's concern cannot be easily compared with those of today when a Mom can call a Son anywhere in the world for instant assurance and with little cost. - but she was a mother and a Christian New England mother.

I think he did very well and I assume he was generally content - for a teenager.

Page 37 side comment - already then it was noted that Americans did not speak other languages - by JQA - the same as today - but just like today but more so then we had a 3,000 mile ocean between us and other languages except for French Canada. I would assume then as now it should not be so intolerable that so many Americans only speak English.

It seems also as if he had a combination of intelligence and good work habits to be able to find/build success. I think this will be an interesting read

Rodney wrote: "It appears to me that even though his mother was doting, he didn't seem to respect her a great deal. (I am uncomfortable making a blanket statment that he showed/contained no respect for his mother..."

It did appear that he didn't care for his mother's constant badgering about everything in his life. It came off as if she was trying to live a life she would like through him and he wasn't really having it.

Vince - I remember seeing that page 37 comment but I hadn't really thought about it. Thanks for pointing that out!

Rodney wrote: "It appears to me that even though his mother was doting, he didn't seem to respect her a great deal. (I am uncomfortable making a blanket statment that he showed/contained no respect for his mother..."

I am also uncomfortable with blanket statements like those...I think it is a weakness of psycho-history, especially if you only have certain information. But I think it is rare any biographer gets a full picture of their subject.

Yeah, I think being a teenager plays a part in all this, plus you mix what Heather said, you have a mother who is lecturing you through the mail, it is not easy.

Vince wrote: "All these interesting comments - and I am only one psychology course close to 50 years ago "educated" in the attitude things. I think that he developed a lot of self confidence on his travels whic..."

Thanks, Vince. I get the impression the author is missing the teenager aspect in this. Do others agree? It is a theme we quickly picked up, but I'm not sure our author has put equal weight into the equation.

I also found it interesting that JQA felt he saw his traveling as a disadvantage as he leaves Harvard! Others in his class seem more situated to start a career.

I feel bad for JQA moving into a career he hates. Yikes.

Here are some background material on Shay's Rebellion:

In 1786, nearly 2,000 debtor farmers in western Massachusetts were threatened with foreclosure of their mortgaged property. The state legislature had voted to pay off the state's Revolutionary War debt in three years; between 1783 and 1786, taxes on land rose more than 60 percent. Desperate farmers demanded a cut in property taxes and adoption of state laws to postpone farm foreclosures. The lower house of the state legislature passed relief measures in 1786, but creditors persuaded the upper house to reject the package.

When lower courts started to seize the property of farmers such as Daniel Shays, a Revolutionary War veteran, western Massachusetts farmers temporarily closed the courts and threatened a federal arsenal. Although the rebels were defeated by the state militia, they were victorious at the polls. A new legislature elected early in 1787 enacted debt relief.

By the spring of 1787, many national leaders believed that the new republic's survival was at risk. The threat of national bankruptcy, commercial conflicts among the states, Britain's refusal to evacuate military posts, Spanish intrigues on the western frontier, and armed rebellion in western Massachusetts underscored the weaknesses of the Articles of Confederation. The only solution, many prominent figures were convinced, was to create an effective central government led by a strong chief executive.
(Source: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/data...)

http://shaysrebellion.stcc.edu/index....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27...

Read more:
Thomas P. Slaughter

All good comments. I see how it would be disappointing for JQA and his father that JQA wasn't ready to enter Harvard when and how they expected. After all, JQA had tons of life experience and world experience that surely the other students did not have. How many of the other Harvard students had ever been a secretary to a Foreign Minister?

And yet, he clearly did not have enough knowledge in certain areas that were important at Harvard. I think of the big-fish-in-a-little-pond finding himself a little-fish-in-a-big-pond. Only with JQA, I think it is more that in Europe he was an exotic fish in a big pond. And then he moved to the little, frontier pond of the USA and found he was ordinary and not quite up to standard.

Good observations, Elizabeth. You do get the impression from the book that Harvard was its own world and you could have been King of the World, but if you didn't know Latin well enough, then get a tutor!

I enjoyed reading on page 26 that JQA "haunted the booksellers, the start of a lifelong hobby, buying many volumes for shipment home." Sounds like the same expensive habit that I have...

Oh, on page 35 there is an interesting little bit that one could use as a great trivia question. "What was the favorite color of the 6th president of the United States?" Answer: blue.

Would you say his books are his safe place amidst the troublesome world?

I think so. Collecting books, reading, learning languages, all seem to be pure fun for him.

Elizabeth S wrote: "I think so. Collecting books, reading, learning languages, all seem to be pure fun for him."

I agree, Elizabeth, his true love seems to be his books and literature.