Classics and the Western Canon discussion

So after hearing for 19 books how Achilles was the greatest of the Greek warriors, at last we get to see him in action to judge for ourselves.

But first, that fascinating passage where Zeus calls all the gods and tells them they’re free now to help whomever they want, that he no longer forbids divine interference with the contestants. And so the gods fly to take sides.

Apollo goads Aeneas into thinking he is strong enougn to take on Achilles, so he seeks him out. It seems de rigeur, though, that Achilles must trash-talk Aeneas before actually engaging him. And Aeneas gives as good as he gets, with another one of those discursions – we had Agamemnon on the ate, and now we have Aeneas on his lineage. We’ve seen before how “son of” has been very important, but now we get a much more extended lineage.

They each throw a spear, and it looks bad for Aeneas, but we know that he must be spared, because he has to escape the burning Troy to found Rome, so once again a god carries a wounded Trojan from the battlefield. And we get an interesting line, at 332, when Poseidon asks Aeneas

Which immortal counseled you to do battle –
recklessly – against Pelus’ spirited son,
mightier than you, better loved in heaven?

Better loved in heaven. Interesting. Aeneas is the son of a mightier goddess, but Achilles is the better loved in heaven.

And now we see Achilles rampaging, spearing young Polydorus in the back, killing Tros even as he knelt before him in supplication, slaughtering right and left:

Just as a terrifying fire rages through deep woods
on a parched mountain, burning dense stands of trees,
as the driving wind blows flames to every spot,
that how Achilles, like a god, raged with his spear,
attacking and killing men all through the fight.
The dark earth ran with blood. Just as a man yokes oxen,
big bulls, wide in the shoulder, to grind barley
on a well-built threshing floor, and lowing oxen
quickly flatten all the grain, that how brave Achilles
drove his sure-footed horses to trample on the dead
and on their shields as well. The chariot axle underneath
got sprayed with blood. Blood soaked the chariot rails,
thrown up in gouts from horses’ hooves and wheel rims.
But Peleus’ son pushed on to win more glory,
blood spattered over his all-conquering hands.

Is there any doubt that he is the greatest of the Greek warriors?

Patrice wrote: "What he did was very unjust. And the gods, it seems to me, cannot allow an injustice to go unpunished.
Troy has to suffer. "

How then do you explain the division of the gods? Some of them want Trojans to suffer, some of them want Greeks to suffer. At one point Zeus tells the gods to stay out of the fight, at another he says they may get involved, if they wish. It all seems so random to me. It's one of the things that really irritated me about the Iliad when I first read it, lo these many years ago. I think this is what forms the basis for the argument that Homer does not offer moral principles. (Though we know that ancient Greek readers thought that he did.) But I think you're right -- this is probably a difficulty created by our modern approach to what was not a cut-and-dried affair for ancient readers.

There was a theory floating around at once time that Troy (one of them, anyway) was destroyed by an earthquake. In that light I thought these lines were interesting:

So the blessed immortals inspired the armies
to clash, and fierce combat broake out on the plain.
The father of gods and men loosed his thunder.
Nearer the battlefield Poseidon shook
the boundless earth, shook the mountain summits
including spring-rinsed Ida's every spur
and peak, shook the Argive ships, shook Ilium's streets.
A terrified Hades, lord of farther below,
left his throne protesting that overhead
earth-shaking Poseidon might open the ground,
letting men and immortals see his domain... 20.54-64

I like the idea that the poem is an allegory for a natural disaster, but I don't know how much serious support there is for that. Is this theory still kicking around? Eman? Patrice?

And how likely would it be that a battle would continue on after an earthquake of this magnitude? An eagle drops a snake and seers call for a change in tactics. What about an earthquake?

Patrice wrote: "from wood's in search of trojan war

in arcadia poseidon was always worshipped in the shape of a horse.
for country folk he was hippos,the horse.
but poseidon even in historical times, was the only..."

Thanks, Patrice. I knew there were several cities built one on top of the other and one of them showed evidence of earthquake damage. I had forgotten about the Trojan Horse association though.

Sorry to hear about your wrist -- hope it heals quickly. I see that it doesn't keep you from the keyboard though. I'm sure there's some Homeric comparison I could make here... the wounded warrior crawling back into battle... ;-)

Patrice wrote: "I really love the way the gods disguise themselves as people. I think that's why it's so important to be hospitable to a stranger, he might be a god in disguise."

But it seems that almost always the humans recognize them as gods anyhow.

Wow. Sounds like you were really cut down in the ranks! Hephaestus needs to get to work on a new suit of armor. Take care of yourself, Patrice!

Everyman,

Just waving "hello," lots of distractions lately, but I noted this comment of yours:

Aeneas, but we know that he must be spared, because he has to escape the burning Troy to found Rome

Yes, we do know this, although I think Homer couldn't have known this.

Indirectly off-topic. (view spoiler)[ I must, most regretfully absent myself from this book discussion. Very sorry.



Unfortunately, at Christmas my mother-in-law suffered a debilitating stroke. And as someone has to be with her in her home 24/7, I've been away from my own home and computer for a day or two or three, plus visits, every week. My supply of discretionary time has dwindled.

I shall read along and enjoy your postings. I hope you all have a good time. Regards. Adelle (hide spoiler)]

Adelle wrote: "Indirectly off-topic. I must, most regretfully absent myself from this book discussion. Very sorry.



Unfortunately, at Christmas my mother-in-law suffered a debilitating stroke. And as som..."

Sorry to hear this, Adelle. Best wishes, and hope you can still find a few minutes to share your thoughts.

Bill wrote: "Yes, we do know this, although I think Homer couldn't have known this.

."

Homer doesn't have Poseidon name Rome specifically, but he does indicate why Aeneas must be saved:

"We should lead Aeneas away from death,
because Zeus will be furious if Achilles
kills him now. Aeneas' fate is to live
in order to save the last lineage and stock
of Dardanus, a favorite among the sons
that moral temptresses have borne to Zeus.
The son of Cronus detests Priam's seed,
and soon Aeneas will rule over Trojans
as will sons of his sons hereafter born." 20.300

And I suppose Virgil takes over from here.

Adelle wrote: "Indirectly off-topic. I must, most regretfully absent myself from this book discussion. Very sorry.

Very sorry to hear that, particularly about your mother (I live with a gradually declining 91 year old mother-in-law, so have some beginning idea what you're going through), but also because your contributions have been wonderful -- thoughtful, well reasoned, and articulate.

We will very much miss you, and hope that your mother recovers to the point where you can have some time to come back to us.

Patrice wrote: "I would love to know what people think of Homer's gory details. Why do you think he describes each wound in such careful detail?

My husband and I have been kicking ideas back and forth about th..."

I have various ideas.

One is simply verisimilitude. It's much more dramatic to tell exactly how A killed B than just to keep on saying "and A, son of M killed B, son of N, and C, son of O, killed D, son of P, and then E...."

Another thought is that it was a much more violent age than ours, not only in the form of hand-to-hand combat, but also because they were used to seeing animals killed and butchered in front of them on the altar, and many of the audience surely killed much of their own food. Blood and gore probably wouldn't have the same gory impact on his audience as on us.

Then, also, it makes your great-great-great uncle seem more of a warrior to hear how he thrust a spear through the three-fold shield of the enemy with such force that the point of the spear emerged beneath his left shoulder blade than just to say that he stabbed the enemy to death.

And, maybe, being much closer to death than we are, this is what the audience wanted to hear!

Just a few off the cuff ideas.

Adelle wrote: "Indirectly off-topic. I must, most regretfully absent myself from this book discussion. Very sorry.



Unfortunately, at Christmas my mother-in-law suffered a debilitating stroke. And as som..."

I'm very sorry to hear about that, Adelle. Caregiving can be very wearing on a person, I know. Take care of yourself, too.

Patrice wrote: "My husband, oth, thinks it's a kind of predatory thrill to read about the attacks. This mild mannered professor gets a charge out of it. That's what's hard for me to understand and I think I have to just give up trying. He points out that even video games show brains splattering. It's fun.
"

To what extent, I wonder, is that a gender thing? It may be quite relevant if the primary audiences for the Homeric recitations were males, which seems likely since it seems to me that all the lessons, if they are such, that the Iliad offers in how to live or behave relate to male lives and behaviors, and there is virtually nothing offered about how Greek women should live and behave other than Andromache saying goodbye to Hector and Briseis weeping over the body of Patrocles.

Or maybe the lesson is, be obedient and do whatever a man expects of you.

But back to the point, if the poems were originally recited and then written to be delivered to a male audience, they would appeal to the same male libido that loves blood spatter in video games and blood spilled on the ice boxing -- sorry, ice hockey -- rink. So maybe your husband has a point here.

Patrice wrote: "Still, somehow, I assumed that we were seeing the same thing, feeling the same thing, when we saw a baby."

I don't know about other guys, but to me, any baby not my own (or my grandchild) is just a slobbering, pooping, messy, smelly, upchucking, wailing nuisance that I have no desire to have anything to do with. Oh, I can make the right noises about how cute it is and how it looks just like its mother or father (it looks nothing like them at all, and they should thank their lucky stars it doesn't, but that's just one of the social lies one is obligated to tell) when I can't avoid interacting with one's parents, but I subscribe to my former (bachelor) partner's view that every child that's born should be put in a barrel and fed through the bung.

In regards to Patrice's question babies vs. bloodshed... I am a bit of a Tom boy, babies don't get me either (I have mine and he's good). I do like baby smell now, but that's because it triggers memories of my own, aside from that, my view on babies is the same as E-man's (but give me a toddler that I can talk to and play with, that's different). While I don't care so much for the bloodshed, I do love battle plans and intrigue and thinking a step ahead of the opponent, which is probably why I enjoyed the chapter where Odysseus goes out at night so much. I will (regretfully) admit to liking bloodshed when emotions are involved, so I'm sure to enjoy the upcoming chapters when Achilles gets his fight on.

I just knew the topic of baby smell would come up in our discussion of the Iliad. Don't ask me how. It just seems... inevitable. :|