The Dusty Bookshelf discussion

Hi! April and I are reading this book in April if anyone wants to join us :) Don't you want to read 100s of pages of dense poetry???

I read the book but I will join the discussion anyway, having fond memories of the book :)

I'm looking forward to starting this...I'm also looking forward to being snarky...about the fact that it IS dense poetry...but I've heard IF (and it's a BIG IF for me:)...I can understand the flowery words and get to the meat the content is pretty good! I am thankful it's an 'authoritative text with backgrounds and sources criticism"! I'll need all the help I can get! (although all the notes makes the print pretty small!!! :)

I'm also figuring . . . I made it through Beowulf..I can do this! :)

I haven't read Beowulf. I haven't really read any epic poetry at all.....

this edition is the best I have found... it has on-page explanatory notes that make it much easier to understand without having to turn pages a hundred times :)

This is the one I have...it is nice that it has notes throughout. 1/2 the page is actually Milton's text, then the rest of the page is the notes and background...we shall see??? http://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Lost-N...

Sorry..couldn't actually find the copy I have on goodreads??? :)

Jessica wrote: "I haven't read Beowulf. I haven't really read any epic poetry at all....."

We had to go through two versions for me to understand what was going on in some places...but the BIG picture was there....I might need some Cliff Notes for this! LOL!

I loved paradise Lost. I think that, for me, the key to both that and Beowulf was to read them aloud to myself.
Also, C.S.Lewis' Preface to Paradise Lost was really helpful.

I have C.S. Lewis's Preface! And It's a dusty book! win :D

Alright...I had some time during #1 son's piano lessons and I started this...I have one question for those of you who've read, and when the others start...WHO IS talking? I get Satan and Beealzubub (sp) are having an convo in some places...but WHO is asking why? Help me:) I don't think it's Adam...is it Milton himself questioning?? I thought it was supposed to be Satan's speech to his minions...but it doesn't seem like that either...Sorry, I'm poetry challenged! Thanks:)

I have no idea. Try sparknotes.com and search for paradise lost. it might say there who is narrating.

Ooo...thank you for that site Jessica! It will certainly come in handy in the future. I guess I don't have to feel dumb...several times it just lists the narrator as "Milton's speaker" so it must not be a certain anyone...just the speaker. I'm cool with that...just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some HUGE piece of the pie! :)

I love sparknotes. It helped me get through some tough books! I hope to start Paradise Lost soon. I thought there was another week in March!!

I will certainly be using it again..(at least for this reading..I don't think any thing else I have is this..umm..in depth!:) I know, March went by fast...and I figured...if I started a few days early I won't fall TOO far behind! :) So you're fine...you've still got 2 days!

Okay I'm starting the Preface to Paradise Lost by C.S. Lewis today. I'll tell you what I learn from it!
A Preface to Paradise Lost: Being the Ballard Matthews Lectures Delivered at University College, North Wales, 1941

Yay! I'm hoping to get some more under my belt today...I can't read it at night...I tend to nod off...can't imagine why! :) Hopefully Lewis will shed some light:)

OK...see this is why I have trouble with poetry. "A multitude, like which the populous North poured never from her frozen loins"....now without my notes I would NEVER have figured out this was supposed to be the vandals who 'poured' from the frozen Rhine and Danube rivers (which apperentaly freeze in winter and form two sides of a triangle that can be seen as an emblem of the part of the human body coverd by a loin cloth!) Well...thank goodness for notes! I really would have NO idea what was going on in most places if it weren't for the notes! :) I'm glad someone else was able to 'translate' it for people with less poetic minds!:) My husband made fun of me picking on the flowery language considering I adore Jane Austen and other books with what he thinks have "flowry' language...but at least they say what they mean...they just use good vocabulary!

But...I can say that it's intersting, and it is fun to read! And...I'll admit, that since I do have the notes, I enjoy trying to figure out some things, and then find out if I'm right or wrong! :)

haha I like flowery language... I <3 epicness... thats why I read epic fantasy these days, it can hardly get more flowery than that :D

Oh...I love the flowery language...and I do love a great fantasy read(though I'm not sure mine are epic!:)...but I have trouble reading it in poetry...because by the time I get to the end of the fourth or fifth line...I have no idea what we started with. I don't mind the language, but it has to form a complete thought for me:) I guess I like people using great vocabulary...but not necessarily in metaphors:) I can't decipher the metaphors! LOL... I had no idea..but I'm metaphore-dumb! :)

I have a method for that... sometimes just try to imagine the metaphor literally (which helps cos metaphor is something like comparing one thing to another on the basis of kinda common outer looks), paint it in your mind like a picture, however absurd, and then try to decipher the picture :)

anyway off topic, if you want, you can check my poetry in here haha, my style can be tough but surely not as milton's LOL :)

Sounds like something I can try...my mind always paints the pic from words...just how it works, but then turning it into something else...yup, that's where I get stuck! I'll certainly check out your poetry...but I'll be the first to admit, I'm not much beyond Dr. Seuss! LOL:)

thats how I write my poems - I have certain image or scene in mind and I pretty much describe it in a weird way :)

I'm about halfway through The Preface to Paradise Lost. The best thing in there so far was C.S. Lewis saying that people read Paradise Lost wrong all the time. Case in point, the used book store full of randomly highlighted lines in the first two pages and the rest of the book blank. HA HA that's exactly what my book looks like! C.S. Lewis said it's more about the story than little nuggets of great words. :)

I agree (with Lewis...I think it's about the story, but I think everything is about the story:)...I'm a 'big picture' gal! :) I just hope I GET the story...but honestly, it's not that hard to understand that big picture ...it's all the little details that get a bit boggy...but even some of those are beginning to come in a wee bit clearer...though maybe I'm just in a good spot:)

Razmatus wrote: "I have a method for that... sometimes just try to imagine the metaphor literally (which helps cos metaphor is something like comparing one thing to another on the basis of kinda common outer looks)..."

I read your stuff! I thought it was really good. Now, I had some spots where I didn't get some stuff in the first one..."Fallen Hand That Scribbles" (sorry if I get the names wrong...working from memory!:) But I really liked the "Master Within" one. I thought you used great vocabulary, and even though you used some 'flowery' language on me...you painted a very vivid picture! Not sure what you're plans are for publishing...and I'm not a poetry critic, but I thought they were both very good!

thanks hehe :)... "Fallen hand that scribbles..." is in general about one trying to make sense of being left alone, in kinda vain attempt to let go of the shadow of the past, with a little hope towards the end :)

April - I'm halfway through book 1 in paradise lost. Where are you? I'm surprised that I actually understand whats going on this time around! I'm really liking it so far.

Jessica wrote: "April - I'm halfway through book 1 in paradise lost. Where are you? I'm surprised that I actually understand whats going on this time around! I'm really liking it so far."

Almost finished with book 1:) It's not bad at all..not anywhere near as bad as the first few times I'd started it! I still have some trouble on some of the metephores...but I'm wading through the tough spots pretty well actually! You're 'review' or comments on Lewis' preface helped some too. I usually only get to read it on Wednesdays (oldest kids piano lessons!:) Because at night I just get too sleepy...only get about 15 words in and start nodding off;) I think my attitude is helping me this time...I'm just reading it to read it...I'm not trying to look up every little thing I don't understand and try to pick it all apart...that makes it much more enjoyable! :) So far the biggest thing that stuck out for me...was Satan's general attitude...Milton's line..'better to reign in hell, than serve in heav'n'...just really struck home for me as a . . .YES! That's a Satan thing! Not that I get him...but that whole part...just put into perspective the whole "Satan has a control issue" . . anyway..that whole conversation has been my favorite part so far. I do have to admit, though..I almost peed my pants when I realized there was 12 books! Hahaha! :)

Thanks to that preface, I'm just reading it for entertainment too. Now that I don't have to stress about looking every little thing up, it's actually fun to read!

That line - "Better to reign in hell.." is one of my favorites and it's a total classic.

"Satan has a control issue" totally made me laugh! Why, yes I think he does... :D

One thing I didn't get was why Milton insisted on saying that Satan is like physically huge?? Milton describes him as being bigger than a whale and I just don't get why it's important, interesting or relevant....

In my notes on that...it talks about pagan mythology when the gods were attacked by the Titans...and moves into the Leviathan
Here's what mine says... (I just took it to mean he had a large presence...??)
197-208: In pagan mythology the gods were attacked by the Titans (thw twelve children of Heaven and Earth) and their offspring, the Giants (partly human monsters whose feet were serpents). Briareos was a rebellious monster with 100 hands and Typhon was another with 100 serpent heads adn fiery eyes. According to Hesiod Jove attacked Typhon with lightening, set him on fire, and hurled him into Tartarus (hell); according to Pindar Jove imprisoned him in a cae near Tarsus in Asia Minor. Christian mythographers moralized the revold of Typhon as an analogy to the proud revolt of Satan. Leviathan is an enemy of the Lord (Isa. 27.1) described as an amphibious behemoth, a huge crocodile-like dragon, in Job 40.15-41.34. He was identified by commentators with Satan, as was the whale. The story of the deceived sailor was common and had been moralized.
So that's what mine said...not sure if it helps:)

Huh, so he's blending pagan mythology with the fall of Satan. That's kind of cool. The Titans were huge so I guess making Satan huge makes him similar to the Titans. The moral of the story - Satan was one big dude :)

By the way, I'm having SO much fun reading this with you! It would be a total bore without someone to talk to :D

Agreed! ...and now that I know you're really into the meat of it, it puts a little kick in my step...cause I was kinda slowing down:) Now that I have to keep up to stay in teh conversation:) yay for buddy reads! ...and yes, Satan is one big, bad dude...with a control issue:)

Oh, and sorry about all my typo issues up there:) I have two sick kids, we were in the middle of math and grandma called...it was a calgon moment, for sure! :D

So, I felt the urge to insert my favorite quotation from Paradise Lost into the discussion of Satan's rhetoric... "Awake, arise, or be forever fallen!" To me, it really made sense of why he is successful at making people (and demons) follow him -- with such powerful rhetoric, it is hard not to!

you got to take into mind this is a work that was one of most important ones for the coming generation of literary romanticism... Satan wasnt the antihero there cos Milton was a Satanist, but cos he was a "titan", a strong character rebelling against authority and then despairing

I think there is some controversy around Satan's character because he's the closest thing in the whole book to being the hero. I think that when Milton says he's going to do something different, that included writing a poem that doesn't really have a hero.

Well, Satan needs to be a strong character if we are to take the rebellion seriously. It also allows for progression over the course of the epic: when he first falls, Satan is still, in essence, an angel. If he were not impressive, it might reflect badly on the other angels and on God. It is only through his persistent evil deeds that Satan eventually becomes shrunken and misshapen.

Well said Catherine:) Exactly what I was thinking..but you articulate it much better! :)

woohoo! Finished book I. It was pretty good. I liked learning names for all the demons. And is it just me or does this line weird you out too???

“From behind the Moon / In dim Eclipse disastrous twilight sheds.” (Line 596-7)

That whole section is a bit disconcerting! Great job...you're ahead of me now...alright, I'm putting Emma down to catch up with you:) I've only got 100 lines to go to finish book 1!

You are right...it was cool to have names for the demons. and now...the consult begins! (I have a feeling there's gonna be a fight:)

I just finished book 2. The council was surprisingly more civil than any political debate I've ever heard.

And I thought that line was weird because it says "Moon" "Eclipse" and "Twilight" all in one line. It just needs the word new to have the first three titles of the twilight series LOL :)

We get to go to heaven in book 3. Yay! I was getting kinda tired of Hell. Maybe soon we'll finally get to Earth...? :D

Ahhh...I have to catch up..I know it's not a race..but at least this way I have a driving force! Just got back from a mini-vacation...so NOW...I've gotta read! That's funny about the twilight series..hey, maybe Stephenie Meyer was a bit Paradise Lost fan??? hmmm!:) Glad that we can move on(once I finish book 2)...I was tired of hell by the end of book 1.

*big* fan...not bit :P

So I finished book 3 and I'm starting to get epic poetry burn out. @_@ I'm going to slow my pace down for a while and read a few pages a day while I read a review book that needs attention. This totally breaks my rule of only reading one book at a time! I hope I don't forget what's happened so far! Though honestly the plot isn't too complicated. simple plot, complicated words. Now you don't have to worry about catching up. I will probably be at the beginning of book 4 for a week :)

I did muddle through book 2 today during piano lessons for my oldest! I have to admit...I was starting to feel like I was in Hades! :P I started book 3, and I was happy to find myself enjoying the conversations with God and Jesus more...although Satan was interesting and stuff...he's got a great attitude, too...just about negative things! LOL:) I was pretty captivated by the meanings behind the first couple of pages that God will treat man differently than Satan...because Satan is the cause/fault for the fall of both...himself and man. Interesting thoughts. Well...I probably try to keep moving my way through book 3...If I keep only getting to it on Wednesdays it's going to take me 3 months to get through this journey! But...good to know, that I don't have to feel bad every time I pick up Emma now! :)

Alright...I'm needing a pep talk here! I haven't finished Emma yet..but at least it's not difficult to pick up when time allows...but I have Paradise lost in my purse for piano lessons...and once I start reading, I do enjoy going through it...but to actually pick it up....just gives me the uhhh...why am I reading this...it's just not 'exciting' I guess...so I just needed to rant a bit, and now...if I promise I'll read that instead of InkSpell...Emma...or the warnings on my car visor...I will! :D

Here's what I'm doing. I'm reading 2 pages a day and reading another book at the same time. If I know that I only have to read 2 pages then I'm not reluctant to pick it up. Obviously we can't read it at that pace forever or it'll take a year to finish it, but it's working for me right now especially since the main part of the story that I thought happened at the beginning (you know, THE FALL and all that) hasn't even happened yet and I bet that's the most interesting part. So here's my pep talk - you can read 2 pages a day!!! you can do it!!!! :D