Classics and the Western Canon discussion

After the four books with Telemachus, we now get to Odysseus himself.

Starting with Book 5, several things struck me.

Homer seems to emphasize over and over how the gods direct human behavior, both indirectly and directly. This book is particularly heavy on divine intervention and control. And Kalypso emphasizes for us again that Zeus has the ultimate control:
"But now there's no eluding Zeus's will.
If this thing be ordained by him, I say
so be it..." Fitzgerald around 135

Once again, Homer is unconcerned about spoilers. Rather, he lays out yet again exactly what's going to happen in the future events.

I'm interested in the Kalypso/Odysseus relationship. Of course here we only see the end of it, but a few things struck me.

First, she offers Odysseus eternal life. Since the primary distinction between gods and humans is that gods are immortal and humans are mortal, this means that she offers Odysseus divinity.

This is not unique in Greek mythology, but it is unusual. And almost all instances of it were in the distant past. This website has a purported list of all the humans who were given divinity:
http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/...

But that seems to be a pretty powerful incentive to offer a human!

Second, in the Fitzgerald translation, we have, at about line 153:
"The sweet days of his life time
were running out in anguish over his exile,
for long ago the nymph had ceased to please."
This implies that at one time she DID please, doesn't it? So perhaps initially Odysseus was happy to be in her company, perhaps temporarily forgot about Penelope and Ithaka, but now is tired of her and longs for home (a matter of absence making the heart grow fonder?)

(BTW: Butler translates that line "for he had got tired of Calypso," and Murray has "for the nymph was no longer pleasing in his sight." So that interpretation that she was once pleasing does seem correct.)

Why do people think that Odysseus is anxious to leave, and to give up the proposed gift of divinity? Is it genuine longing for his wife? Is it that he is a man of action, and a period of inactivity in the arms of a beautiful goddess is a pleasing interlude, but he has had his fill of quiet peace and, as Tennyson suggests, needs new challenges and adventures? Is it something else?

What do people think of Athena's comment at the start of Book 5 "“Father Zeus, and ye other blessed gods that are forever, never henceforward let sceptred king with a ready heart be kind and gentle, nor let him heed righteousness in his mind; but let him ever be harsh, and work unrighteousness, seeing that no one remembers divine Odysseus of the people whose lord he was; yet gentle was he as a father." (Murray)

As we discussed in the Iliad, in a non-literate society, a person is only remembered if he continues to be talked and sung about. If a kind and gentle king is quickly forgotten, but a cruel and tyrannical king is remembered, is it better to be the cruel and tyrannical ruler so that your fame will live on forever? (Certainly in the 20th century, some of the cruelest and most tyrannical dictators are some of the best remembered. What's that slogan, no publicity is bad publicity?)

I tend to think that in the beginning of things Odysseus would certainly be rather infatuated with the beautiful goddess, and I would presume that during the period of the war and than making his journey home he probably would not have had many opportunities to be with other women, and so he is presented with a particularly enchanting goddess, yes I can see where at the onset he would be taken in with her and quite enjoy her charms and her bed.

But of course we do not truly know the nature of his relationship/feelings with Calypso I would presume that it was of a predominately physical/lustful attraction and even with a goddess that is bond to wear off in time.

I do believe that in truth his heart lies back in Ithaka, with his home, his wife, the son he does not know, all he had left behind. So eventually the novelty of the goddess would wear off and he would long for that which he truly loves. In part it could be that he grows restless with living in this seemingly everlasting state of bliss, but I also think he becomes truly homesick.

In regards to the question of the gods and particularly Zeus, it seems almost as if Zeus just wants to stay out of it, or try and keep the peace among the gods as best as can be done. Perhaps after the Trojan war he does not want to cerate another conflict between them all. It seems he personally has little interest or care in the fate of Odysseus.

I wonder, if Athena had not pleaded his case with Zeus, would he have been content to allow Odysseus to remain indefinitely in the clutches of Calypso indefinitely. Athena decided that Odysseus has been punished enough and so she goes before her father and he agrees to allow Odysseus to be set free, perhaps just to placate her and avoid argument?

But as one of the conditions of his being released he has to make a raft himself and is denied the aid of either gods and men. Is this perhaps to prevent from angering Poseidon too much? While theoretically Odysseus will be given the freedom to attempt to make his way back home, he is still placed very much at the mercy of the sea. I wonder if it is not also meant to try and humble him by sending him off in but a man-made raft completely alone.

Everyman wrote: "I'm interested in the Kalypso/Odysseus relationship. Of course here we only see the end of it, but a few things struck me.

First, she offers Odysseus eternal life."

The offer of immortality to Odysseus is thematically very important. It is the ultimate temptation, so to speak, but he cannot accept the offer, since to do so would be a basic denial of his humanity. It is a fascinating ploy by Homer, since Calypso's offer serves as a stark reminder that gods are gods and men are men. Homer's heroes may be godlike in their physical or mental attributes, but they cannot become gods, and Odysseus is wise enough to know this. He is defined by the very fact of his mortality -- his trials, the war he has lived through, his purpose in reaching home, his relationships with Telemachus, Penelope, Laertes and his men.

To accept the offer of Calypso (whose name means "concealer") would be an act of hybris. Greek myth is replete with mortals who aspired to divinity and failed miserably. Consider Daedalus, whose invention of wings to fly with were a transgression of the natural order (with disastrous consequences). Or Bellerophon, who attempted to scale Olympus while riding Pegasus and was blasted out of the sky by a thunderbolt from Zeus. Phaethon also comes to mind.

Three small passages in Book V struck me:

- When we first see Odysseus, sitting on the seashore with his eyes full of tears, we are told that "he had got tired of Calypso." So it seems that there was a time when he was not tired of Calypso, and stayed with her willingly. [Everyman pointed this out above, msg 2]

- When he distrusts her instructions to sail home on a raft and asks her to make an oath, she "smiled at this and caressed him with her hand." It's a quietly intimate gesture. She's charmed by his care and caution even when he is offered something he's been longing for.

- Finally, after ther dinner that night, "the pair retired into the inner part of the cave and went to bed." Odysseus may be longing for Penelope, but he also seems willing to spend one more night with Calypso.

Silver wrote: "But of course we do not truly know the nature of his relationship/feelings with Calypso I would presume that it was of a predominately physical/lustful attraction and even with a goddess that is bond to wear off in time.

..."

I agree. It's Penelope, I think, who holds his heart. Odysseus, remember, had been loathe to join the forces heading off to Troy. Had tried to pretend that he hadn't his senses about him, plowing that field. But he loved Telemachus. Wouldn't plow over him. I suspect that he loved his young wife, Penelope, too.

Perhaps he loves them even more now. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, etc. Only remembering, now, the good times. So those long ago days would seem more precious than ever.

Regarding Calypso. Calypso is described as beautiful, as physically alluring. Palmer's translation reads: "Always at night he lay by her unwillingly." Fitzgerald: "he lay with her each night, for she compelled him" (about 165). "Honey, I didn't WANT to sleep with her, but she made me." (Adelle translation.)

I read that as being an excuse thought up by Odysseus that he tells himself. That though in his heart he loves Penelope, the physical attractiveness of Calypso "forces/compels" him to lay with her.

And really, what else is there to do on that island?

Also, he must return to the world of men if he is to continue to build his name and deeds. Maybe he would want a few years with his son...to impart wisdom to him.

max wrote: "The offer of immortality to Odysseus is thematically very important. It is the ultimate temptation, so to speak, but he cannot accept the offer, since to do so would be a basic denial of his humanity. It is a fascinating ploy by Homer, since Calypso's offer serves as a stark reminder that gods are gods and men are men..."

Do you suppose Ino appears to serve as a contrast to Odysseus' decision? (5.333) Or perhaps this explains why Odysseus doesn't trust her -- perhaps he thinks there is something fishy about a goddess who was once a mortal human being.

There's certainly something fishy about Ino--she's a sea goddess. But if Odysseus mistrusted Calypso, why should he trust this Ino who appears out of nowhere with crazy advice to abandon his sturdy raft and rely on a piece of cloth tied around his middle?

Yes, fishy indeed. But when his craft is immediately torn asunder he finds himself in exactly the same position anyway, making for shore with aid of the immortal veil. Maybe it's just in Odysseus' nature not to trust anyone. Why should he trust anyone when deception is how he has survived and succeeded in so many things?

Thomas wrote: "Yes, fishy indeed. But when his craft is immediately torn asunder he finds himself in exactly the same position anyway, making for shore with aid of the immortal veil. Maybe it's just in Odysseus' ..."

Yes I think that is a very good point. When one is himself a skilled liar, and deceiver of others, than I would think that would make one more inclined to be mistrustful of others.

I wonder also if perhaps not taking things at face value, and questioning things, being mistrustful is not meant to be regarded as a form of wisdom? As we see that his son has inherited the same trait, and his reluctant to believe things which others have told him.

Also I wonder if it has to do with the nature of the gods themselves. We see how the gods frequently scheme among themselves, and the ways in which many a mortal have been lead astray by them.

Thomas wrote: "Maybe it's just in Odysseus' nature not to trust anyone. Why should he trust anyone when deception is how he has survived and succeeded in so many things? "

Nice point. He is indeed the man of many devices, the man skilled in all ways of contending, the man of many wiles, the man of twists and turns, the ingenious hero, the cunning hero, pick your preferred translation. Can he recognize honesty when he sees it?

We see a good example of his cunning when at 5.215 he doesn't say to Calypso "yes, I want to leave, I'm tired of you and the thought of spending eternity with you disgusts me." Rather, he uses his honeyed words, saying per Murray "“Mighty goddess, be not wroth with me for this. I know full well of myself that wise Penelope is meaner to look upon than thou in comeliness and in stature, for she is a mortal, while thou art immortal and ageless. But even so I wish and long day by day to reach my home, and to see the day of my return." It's a gentle, though perhaps less than honest, way to break up with her (better than sending a tweet!)

There's a social/religious commentary at 5.118 when Calypso says to Hermes, who was sent of course by Zeus, “Cruel are ye, O ye gods, and quick to envy above all others, seeing that ye begrudge goddesses that they should mate with men openly, if any takes a mortal as her dear bed-fellow."

On one level it seems pretty crass of Zeus to object to a divine/human mating when he has a long history of seducing and/or raping human women, and many other gods similarly. But for the Greeks, sex was primarily a power relationship. The male dominated the female, showing his power over her. So it was fine for a male god to have sex with a human woman, since that was the correct power relationship. But when a female goddess had sex with a male human, she was elevating him to power over her, which was a reversal of the way things should be, and so was a) seldom done and b) considered inappropriate, not to say unacceptable, on the goddess's part.

Calypso's long sexual submission to Odysseus is perhaps the only extended relationship of a human male and a divine female. This makes it highly unusual, if not unique, in Greek mythology. (Thomas, max, or anybody else, do you know of any other such long term relationship?)

Everyman wrote: "Calypso's long sexual submission to Odysseus is perhaps the only extended relationship of a human male and a divine female. This makes it highly unusual, if not unique, in Greek mythology. (Thomas, max, or anybody else, do you know of any other such long term relationship?)
..."

There is the story of Tithonus the lover of the goddess Eos, who pleaded with Zeus to grant him etneral life.

Everyman wrote: "
First, she offers Odysseus eternal life. Since the primary distinction between gods and humans is that gods are immortal and humans are mortal, this means that she offers Odysseus divinity.
..."

At the beginning of book V, the first line in my book is
"Dawn rose from her bed beside old Tithonos"
Then the author has a footnote:
"Eos, or Dawn, fell in love with Tithonos, and made him immortal; but although he did not die, he grew older and older forever."

So when I got to the part of Calypso offering Odysseus eternal life my mind went back to that note and I thought "I wouldn't want eternal life either if I kept getting older but couldn't die".
So I wonder if Homer started with that line knowing that his audience would know the story behind Tithonos and think like I did.

Tithonus was a Trojan, the son of Laomedon, whom Eos, the dawn goddess fell in love with. When she asked Zeus to make him immortal (which he granted), she forgot to ask that he also remain eternally youthful. It is a kind of cruel joke that is played on him -- the horror of living forever while also growing gradually more shriveled and decrepit with each passing day. What fate could be more dreadful? It is like a living hell. His story underscores the folly of immortality for humans who aspire to it, and serves as a reminder that the immortality of the gods means not only living forever, but living forever in an eternally youthful state. (Norse gods, by the way, are not immortal; Balder is killed by Loki, and all the gods are destroyed by Ragnarok, the end of the world.)

The mention of Tithonus at the beginning of Book 5 and the question whether Homer was consciously seeking to connect Tithonus' fate with Calypso's later offer of immortality to Odysseus raises, I believe, an interesting question about oral composition.

The way in which individual words, sometimes whole lines or even extended blocks of lines are developed in Homer is based, most scholars agree, on a system of oral composition. This means that unlike in literary epic (e.g. Vergil), where individual words are chosen by a poet with meticulous care, words in Homer are often where they are as building blocks in what was an orally delivered poem. This restricts our freedom to use the standard tools of "literary criticism." In other words, a word or group of words may be in the text because of their use in a larger "formula" and not because the poet has chosen to highlight them as a part of a motif, theme, or image pattern in the poem.

Odysseus trusts Nausicaa from the moment he meets her. Maybe partly he's thirsty, famished, and desperate, and partly she is a beautiful and unthreatening and young woman, but even after dining and washing he seems to have no doubts about her. So he seems capable of trust.

Juliette wrote: "Then the author has a footnote:
"Eos, or Dawn, fell in love with Tithonos, and made him immortal; but although he did not die, he grew older and older forever."

So when I got to the part of Calypso offering Odysseus eternal life my mind went back to that note and I thought "I wouldn't want eternal life either if I kept getting older but couldn't die".
So I wonder if Homer started with that line knowing that his audience would know the story behind Tithonos and think like I did.
"

Great observation. I'm sure that Homer expected at least some of his audience to get the reference. It certainly puts a slant on it, especially if we think that Odysseus knew the legend.

Roger wrote: "Odysseus trusts Nausicaa from the moment he meets her. Maybe partly he's thirsty, famished, and desperate, and partly she is a beautiful and unthreatening and young woman..."

Nausicaa is one of Homer's most charming characters. It appears that teenage girls had messy bedrooms even in Homer's time ("Your splendid clothes lie all uncared for" Athene says to her at the beginning of Book 6.) Her existence on the threshold of marriage is repeatedly emphasized by the poet. When Odysseus encounters her he is buck naked and covered with sea brine, except for an olive branch he is holding before his genitals. It is understandable that Nausicaa's lady attendants would all flee at the sight of him, but she remains -- a sign of her composure and intelligence.

There is something not exactly comical but very striking in the portrayal of Odysseus as he supplicates Nausicaa. A student of mine several years ago put it best when she observed that it is the moment when his fortunes are at their lowest possible level, where he is literally stripped of everything, including his clothes, and is left with nothing except his wits. And at that very moment, the sole person upon whom he is dependent is a young girl, probably not a day over fourteen, washing clothes for her wedding (to an as yet undetermined groom).

And Odysseus matches Nausicaa for composure and intelligence. He has the presence of mind to cover himself. Instead of rushing at her to clasp her knees and beg for deliverance, he stands at a safe distance and addresses her respectfully. When the handmaids are sent off to bathe and anoint him, he asks for a little privacy. In his position, naked and surrounded by attentive teeenage girls, a lot of men would be tempted to let themselves be anointed, which would surely have cost them in the eyes of Nausicaa.

max wrote: " A student of mine several years ago put it best when she observed that it is the moment when his fortunes are at their lowest possible level, where he is literally stripped of everything, including his clothes, and is left with nothing except his wits."

LOVE that!

max wrote: "Nausicaa is one of Homer's most charming characters. "

Absolutely. Any man who isn't charmed by her is, well, not much of an appreciator of feminine beauty, wit, and composure. She is indeed a delight.

And even 2,500 years later, young girls were preparing their hope chests and trousseaus before they had any idea who they would be marrying. The more things change...

max wrote: "And at that very moment, the sole person upon whom he is dependent is a young girl, probably not a day over fourteen, washing clothes for her wedding (to an as yet undetermined groom). "

And her instructions to Odysseus are to go past her father, the King, and embrace the knees of her mother.

On Mother's feelings much depends...

This is fascinating, given the patriarchal nature of the culture.

Thomas wrote: "And her instructions to Odysseus are to go past her father, the King, and embrace the knees of her mother.

On Mother's feelings much depends...

This is fascinating, given the patriarchal nature of the culture.

). ..."

Quite interesting that thus far we see Odysseus fate has been much controlled and determined by women. It is Calypso who is preventing him from being able to return again to his home, and he is rendered incapable of leaving in spite of his despair and desire to do so as long as she wishes to keep him there.

Athena pleads his case before Zeus and it is she who gets her father to agree to demand the Calypso let Odysseus go.

Than a Nereid comes to him to save him when his raft becomes caught within a storm.

And now washed ashore, in a helpless position he becomes fully dependent upon a young girl.

Excellent points, Thomas. And what is also very striking about Nausicaa is the manner in which she cautions Odysseus to wait in a grove sacred to Athena until she is safely home, so that townspeople don't start rumors about her and him, the new stranger in town. She is acutely aware of how gossip operates in Phaeacia, and does not wish to compromise either herself (being on the threshold of marriage) or Odysseus, whom she knows is in need of assistance.

She is a model of prudence and discretion. In the manner in which she assists the hero she is not unlike other mythical heroines such as Ariadne and Medea. But she is different in crucial senses: Odysseus cannot marry her or bring her home, nor does she possess magical powers like Medea. She is a match for Odysseus in that she has remarkable poise and intelligence.

p.s. There is an amusing and very obvious parody of Odysseus' supplication speech to Nausicaa in Ovid's Metamorphoses. See Book 4, where Salmacis entreats Hermaphroditus.

Silver wrote: "Quite interesting that thus far we see Odysseus fate has been much controlled and determined by women. It is Calypso who is preventing him from being able to return again to his home, and he is rendered incapable of leaving in spite of his despair and desire to do so as long as she wishes to keep him there.

Athena pleads his case before Zeus and it is she who gets her father to agree to demand the Calypso let Odysseus go.

Than a Nereid comes to him to save him when his raft becomes caught within a storm.

And now washed ashore, in a helpless position he becomes fully dependent upon a young girl. "

Very nicely observed. And this is perhaps pointed up by the fact that he set out from Troy for home with a ship full of presumably male companions, none of whom are here now to help him. From the support and assistance of his male comrades to the support and assistance entirely, so far, of women, perhaps makes your nice observation even more interesting.

Everyman wrote: "And this is perhaps pointed up by the fact that he set out from Troy for home with a ship full of presumably male companions, none of whom are here now to help him. From the support and assistance of his male comrades to the support and assistance entirely, so far, of women..."

That does add another element to it. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that he is now on his way back home, seeking to return to his wife/domestic life.

On his way to Troy he was sitting out for war and adventure, surrounded with his male comrades, but now that it is time to make his way back and his thoughts have turned to his wife, family, and home, he looses the male companionship and instead it is women who come to aid his cause (at least for the most part, as Calypso was a hindering force)

One aspect of the entire Phaeacian episode that has been observed is that this society, hyper-civilized and full of properly observed courtesy and hospitality, is a kind of foil to the wanton behavior of the suitors back on Ithaca and their blatant disregard for social norms.

Another point worth mentioning is that Odysseus nowhere mentions his identity or his name to Nausicaa in his encounter with her. The matter of Odysseus' identity and when and how he chooses to reveal it is a major theme throughout the poem. For the moment Nausicaa refers to him as a "stranger-guest" (my lame translation of "xeinos" which means both).

Silver wrote: "That does add another element to it. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that he is now on his way back home, seeking to return to his wife/domestic life. "

This rings true to me. Heroes leave their wives and children and go to war out of a sense of honor and duty. They go in search of glory, and this seems like their natural role in the Homeric world. But coming home again isn't so easy. The gods disrupt the hero's voyage and when he does return his home is in chaos. The return voyage turns out to be just as difficult, and just as heroic, as the battle for glory. Getting back to normal is almost as difficult as taking Troy itself.

Thomas wrote: "Getting back to normal is almost as difficult as taking Troy itself.
..."

That is very true. This could almost be seen in psychological way. All the obstacles which he must overcome before he can get back home again can be seen as metaphorical for the personal demons a solider must struggle with as he tries to readapt to normal life again.

It is interesting he must make his return home, alone and isolated, relying only upon his own wits. Perhaps because the journey back home is a more personal experience than that of going to war?

Mentes/Athena visiting Telemachus, Mentor/Athena and Telemachus visiting Nestor, and Telemachus and Pisistratus visiting Menelaus neither give nor are asked their names until welcomed, sat down in a place of honor, and given a good dinner. That seems to be the custom of the time.

max wrote: "Excellent points, Thomas. And what is also very striking about Nausicaa is the manner in which she cautions Odysseus to wait in a grove sacred to Athena until she is safely home, so that townspeop..."

I think this might also be her way of putting the thought into his head that perhaps he should become her suitor.

Silver wrote: "Everyman wrote: "And this is perhaps pointed up by the fact that he set out from Troy for home with a ship full of presumably male companions, none of whom are here now to help him. From the suppor..."

You can see why Samuel Butler thought the writer of this book was a woman.

Silver wrote: "That is very true. This could almost be seen in psychological way. All the obstacles which he must overcom..."

That is the way I tend to read Homer. I'm not sure if the Iliad and the Odyssey are meant to be read in a prescriptive manner, or that they intend to teach moral behavior (we had that discussion during the Iliad read) but I do think that they can be read allegorically.

Most young people want nothing more than to leave home and see the world, pursue their dreams and make something of themselves. Gain honor and glory, in whatever form it comes. But once those goals are achieved (or not) most people want to go home again, or make a home for themselves similar to the one they came from. "Settling down" is how my parents put it. I tend to see the Iliad as an illustration of the leaving part, and the Odyssey as the return. I hope that's not too Joseph Campbell-y, but in the grand scheme that's how I see these epics.

Laurele wrote: "You can see why Samuel Butler thought the writer of this book was a woman. "

Comparing the tone as well as the content of the Iliad versus the Odyssey, it would be easy to think this. And anyway, how do we know that it isn't so?

Laurele wrote: "I think this might also be her way of putting the thought into his head that perhaps he should become her suitor. "

Yes, and she actually says to her attendants (at 6.244): "If only the man to be called my husband could be like this one, / a man living here, if only this one were pleased to stay here." It's an obvious and very charming way for her to say, without appearing inappropriately forward, that she wouldn't mind marrying Odysseus himself.

Just before she says this, O. had emerged from having bathed himself with an added touch: a divine post-bath beauty treatment, courtesy of Athena, who "gilded with grace his head and shoulders..." There is a delightful simile comparing this newly radiant hero to a statue created by a master craftsman, Hephaestus or Athena. This simile is especially suited to the environment of Phaeacia, where eye-catching wonders await O., namely the gardens of Alcinoos and the palace interior.

Thomas wrote: "I tend to see the Iliad as an illustration of the leaving part, and the Odyssey as the return. I hope that's not too Joseph Campbell-y, but in the grand scheme that's how I see these epics. "

Nice. When I was very young, we subscribed to a service that sent out a record (that was all we had then!) of the month of various songs, short dramas, etc. for children, and one of them was about an imaginary rocket trip to Mars. I still remember the end line of the song: "It's good to travel wide, and then, it's good to come back home again."

Homer has given us the traveling wide, now he is giving us the coming home.

Ino told him to throw the scarf back. He had the presence of mind to do so, even though he was at the point of collapse from exhaustion and it was the last piece of clothing he had. That's his wisdom and character for sure. If he had kept it he surely would have come to a bad end. The gods are like that.