Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Sorry, I got distracted and behind in my re-reading by jury duty. Here's the thread to get started with books 7 and 8 (and all preceding).

Men are willing to cry in public in this society. Telemachus bursts into tears before the Ithacan assembly, and again in the house of Menelaus. Peisistratus cries then too. Agamemnon is said by Menelaus to cry when he arrives back in his country. No-one thinks less of them. But Odysseus tries to hide his tears with Antinous. I wonder why.

I think he is trying to hide his identity, which hasn't been revealed yet. Only Alkinoos sees that he is weeping, and this eventually leads him to ask Odysseus who he is and why the songs about the war affect him so much.

Surely Odysseus can't expect to keep his name a secret indefinitely!

Roger wrote: "Surely Odysseus can't expect to keep his name a secret indefinitely!"

Maybe he's waiting for the right moment to reveal that he is BATMAN! Odysseus.

Towards the end of book 8 Odysseus' reaction to the story of the Trojan horse I found myself thinking of the Illiad and of the Trojan's loss though Odysseus was on the winning side, I still thought of them and all the wives especially Andromache and Hector. Or at least if Andromache had not been otherwise busy while Hector was fighting Achilles.

No line numbers in my books, and while I liked the Pope version, for some reason the Rouse version really drew the parallel imagery in my head.

"So sang the famous minstrel. Odysseus was melted, and tears ran over his cheeks. He wept as a woman weeps with her arms about a beloved husband, who has fallen in front of his people, fighting to keep the day of ruin from city and children; when she sees him panting and dying, she throws her arms around him and wails aloud, but the enemies behind her beat her about the back and shoulders with their spears, and drag her away into slavery, where labour and sorrow will be her lot and her cheeks will grow thin with pining."

Juliette wrote: "Roger wrote: "Surely Odysseus can't expect to keep his name a secret indefinitely!"

Maybe he's waiting for the right moment to reveal that he is BATMAN! Odysseus."

Or Bruce Wayne, maybe. Another man of many resources!

There is a internal link here. Homer is a bard singing about Odysseus listening to a bard singing about the Trojan War, which Homer also sang about.

Twice the bard sings of the Trojan War, and each time Odysseus is overcome with weeping, even when the particular subject is the final vistory brought about by his own stratagem of the wooden horse. Why doesn't he remember this great victory with satisfaction?

Roger wrote: "Twice the bard sings of the Trojan War, and each time Odysseus is overcome with weeping, even when the particular subject is the final vistory brought about by his own stratagem of the wooden horse..."

At a point later in the book Odysseus makes a statement in which he says:

"To glory over slain men is no piety"

And what is the quarrel about between Achilles and Odysseus (the subject of Demodokos' first song)? The memory of it is painful enough to make Odysseus weep... but I don't remember reading about this in the Iliad. Did I miss it? Or is it from some other myth?

Thomas wrote: "And what is the quarrel about between Achilles and Odysseus (the subject of Demodokos' first song)? The memory of it is painful enough to make Odysseus weep... but I don't remember reading about t..."

I think my footnotes made mention that the fight took place at the very beginning of the war (possibly before they even got off the ships) and Agamemnon was happy because he was told by an oracle that when two of the greatest men fought it would be the precurser to them overtaking Troy (when in actuality it ended up being a fight between Agamemnon and Achilles almost 10 years later).

Thanks, Juliette. Does the footnote mention a source?

Does anybody have an idea why Athena would appear to Odysseus as a young girl (with pigtails, says Fitzgerald)? It seems to me strange that a young girl would know all the things that this young girl does.

Fitzgerald has a strange translation of about line 17; he says that Athena put the mist around Odysseus "so that no jeering sailor should halt the man or challenge him for luck."

Murray doesn't have this at all: he says "that no one of the great-hearted Phaeacians, meeting him, should speak mockingly to him, and ask him who he was."

Butler has it "in case any of the proud Phaecians who met him should be rude to him, or ask him who he was."

And Lattimore, "Might speak to him in a sneering way and ask where he came from."

I'm wondering whether there was some sort of tradition about getting luck from accosting a stranger? Why would Fitzgerald give us this translation if the Greek doesn't?

Everyman wrote: "Does anybody have an idea why Athena would appear to Odysseus as a young girl (with pigtails, says Fitzgerald)? It seems to me strange that a young girl would know all the things that this young gi..."

Yes, there at Alcinous' door she delivers quite a speech for maybe a ten-year-old sent out to fetch water. And Odysseus doesn't even blink. Maybe he's used to Athena showing up in various guises. This is a particularly apt guise: she appears as a virgin (parthenike, l. 20), which is the goddess's regular epithet. But she doesn't really tell him anything that couldn't have been known by people in the town.

After the speech, Athena rather suddenly departs and goes to Athens. When Odysseus enters the house he is on his own. Perhaps we can read the story of the girl the water pitcher as a magical-realist way of saying that he did all wisdom could do, learning the background of Alkinous and his house while in the town, before he entered and tried his luck.

Thomas wrote: "Thanks, Juliette. Does the footnote mention a source?"
It did not :(

Everyman wrote: "Fitzgerald has a strange translation of about line 17; he says that Athena put the mist around Odysseus "so that no jeering sailor should halt the man or challenge him for luck."

Murray doesn't ..."

I'm not quite sure what it means to challenge someone "for luck." The Greek seems to be pretty straight forward:

μή τις Φαιήκων μεγαθύμων ἀντιβολήσας
κερτομέοι τ᾽ ἐπέεσσι καὶ ἐξερέοιθ᾽ ὅτις εἴη.

(that) no one of the great-hearted Phaiakians upon meeting him
should sneer in words and ask who he was...

The sneering or taunting could be rendered as a challenge, I suppose, but I'm not sure where "luck" comes into it.

Juliette wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Thanks, Juliette. Does the footnote mention a source?"
It did not :("

thanks for looking. I did a bit of rummaging around and it appears to be something based on ancient scholia rather than Homer. Gregory Nagy suggests it may come from a different Iliadic tradition and that the quarrel had to do with the best strategy for taking Troy -- force or guile.

Among the areas of heroic endeavor that serve as conventional points of comparison when a hero boasts, we actually find biê 'might' (e.g., XV 165) and the equivalent of mêtis 'artifice, stratagem' (e.g., XVII 171).[1] In this connection, we may note again that the reference in Odyssey viii 78 to the quarreling Achilles and Odysseus as the "best of the Achaeans" seems to be based on an epic tradition that contrasted the heroic worth of Odysseus with that of Achilles in terms of a contrast between mêtis and biê. The contrast apparently took the form of a quarrel between the two heroes over whether Troy would be taken by might or by artifice. The scholia to Odyssey viii 75 and 77 point to such an epic tradition, where Achilles is advocating might and Odysseus, artifice, as the means that will prove successful in destroying Troy.[2] We have also considered the testimony of the scholia (A) to Iliad IX 347, from which we learn that Aristarchus apparently thought this particular Iliadic passage (IX 346-352) to be an allusion to precisely the same tradition that we are now considering, namely, the rivalry of Achilles and Odysseus as indicated in Odysseyviii 72-82.[3]

From: http://www.press.jhu.edu/books/nagy/B...

I'm starting to get annoyed with Fitzgerald. First is the "for luck" phrase nobody else had and Thomas says isn't there in the Greek.

Then, in Book 8, around 475, first when Odysseus gives meat to the herald to take to Demodokos (though why a stranger should feed the poet and not the king), and a few lines later when Odysseus speaks to him, in both cases Fitzgerald refers to the "blind" Demodokos.

I was going to make a point of the Blind Homer (allegedly, at least) praising, through the mouth of Odysseus, the blind singer Demodokos, but I took a quick look and none of my other translations have "blind" in them. Is Fitzgerald again making some thing up? It seems totally unnecessary to insert that if it isn't in the Greek. I generally like Fitzgerald, but if he's going to keep mistranslating, I'll have to put him aside. I can't keep making notes of points to talk about only to find that they're inventions of Fitzgerald and not Homeric at all.

Can you take a look here, Thomas, and see whether the blindness is mentioned or alluded to in the Greek?

One point I was going to make about blindness and poets/singers is that that might be one of the few occupations that blind people in that culture could actually succeed at. In general, I find that blind people tend to have good memories, which is important for a singer, and if they had a boy to lead them around, they could easily "sing for their supper," whereas there might not be many other occupations a blind person in ancient Greece could do.

But if Demodokos isn't blind, that point seems to lose a lot of its potential punch, doesn't it?

Fitzgerald is embellishing at 8.475, but earlier at 8.64 it's clear that Demodokos is blind, the Muse having "deprived him of his eyes." I think the later reference is just to remind the reader that Demodokos is blind, but it's true that the reminder isn't in the Greek.

Thomas wrote [18]: "(that) no one of the great-hearted Phaiakians upon meeting him
should sneer in words and ask who he was..."

Lombardo: "So that none of the Phaeacians he might meet/
Along the way would challenge him/
And ask who he was."

Lombardo's translation also makes the little grace note at the very end of Book 7, when Alcinous's maids make up a bed for Odysseus, a sweetly tender piece:

"You may lie down, stranger. Your bed is made."
These were welcome words, and Odysseus,
Who had suffered much, fell asleep on the bed
Under the echoing portico. But Alcinous lay down
In the innermost chamber of that lofty house,
And his lady shared his bed and slept beside him.

Comparing that to Fitzgerald, a glimmer of that tenderness comes through, but less so:

How welcome the word 'bed' came to his ears!
Now, then, Odysseus laid him down and slept
in luxury under the Porch of Morning,
while in his inner chamber Alkinoos
retired to rest where his dear consort lay.

That "Porch of Morning" seems odd, contrasted to Lombardo's "echoing portico." Odysseus has obviously been put out on the patio, so to speak; at least open to the air. But I love the description of Alcinous and his wife -- sweet in its own right, and a subtle contrast to how Odysseus should have been sleeping with Penelope. The whole Fitzgerald passage, brief as it is, lacks the emotional clarity of the Lombardo, to my ears.

Everyman wrote: "," whereas there might not be many other occupations a blind person in ancient Greece could do."

There is always the option of becoming a prophet. The Ancient Greeks did seem to be big upon blind prophets.

Though this has got me thinking, I wonder if there could be seen something of a connection between singers/poets and prophets. In a way perhaps they are a sort or prophet.

While poets of the likes of Homer are speaking of things of which have already happened in the past, the fact that much within the stories can be seen as still relevant today reveals that those stories do also speak of the future and reveal something of the nature of man.

And in the same way in which prophecy can seem unclear, or not always mean what one thinks it means, what is poetry but a way of revealing the truth, often concealed within symbolism, metaphor, and allusions.

Both the prophet and the poet at times have a way of revealing things of which the listener may not wish to hear and try to deny.

Thomas wrote: "Fitzgerald is embellishing at 8.475, but earlier at 8.64 it's clear that Demodokos is blind, the Muse having "deprived him of his eyes." I think the later reference is just to remind the reader th..."

Ah. Thanks. So Fitzgerald didn't make that up, but was reminding us.

Which makes my points valid, first that we have the fascinating episode of a supposedly blind Homer signing a song about the aftermath of the Trojan War in which he sings of a blind poet singing of the Trojan War, and second that being a singer of tales might well have been one of the few occupations or activities open to a blind person of that era.

I never much liked Fitzgerald's Homer, for all of the reasons that have been pointed out here. There's an old saying about how translations are like mistresses. The ones that are very faithful are not beautiful, and the ones that are very beautiful are not faithful.

Lattimore is a tad dull, but at least you know that what your are reading comes pretty darn close to Homer. Lombardo loses some of the dignity and elevated flavor of Homer's language but manages to stay fairly accurate.

I had underlined the passage in Book VII in which the bard is shown to be blind. I hadn't thought of the connection to Homer...Homer also being a blind bard. But having been reminded of that, the passage is even more striking.

"Meanwhile the page drew near, leading the honored bard. The muse had greatly loved him, and had given him good and ill: she took away his eyesight, but gave delightful song (Palmer).

So seldom do I think of the gifts of ill as gifts of love.

Every once in a while I have admitted that misfortunes in my life were blessings. But only years and years after the fact. The bard and Homer have long been blind. I'm wondering if Odysseus will eventually see his sufferings as having positive effects.

max wrote: "Lombardo loses some of the dignity and elevated flavor of Homer's language but manages to stay fairly accurate."
However, I'm listening to Lombardo's reading of his own text, and it does sound "dignified and elevated" in his voice. I'm interested in all these comments on different translations and will have to ask my husband now which one he teaches.

I'm curious about Poseidon's response to Hephaestus's capture of Aphrodite and Ares in his clever net. Why is he so insistent that Hephaestus let Ares go? What's the back story here?

Kathy wrote: "I'm curious about Poseidon's response to Hephaestus's capture of Aphrodite and Ares in his clever net. Why is he so insistent that Hephaestus let Ares go? What's the back story here?"

Well, Poseidon seems to be the senior god there--Apollo and Hermes are from a younger generation. And Ares is his nephew. I suppose he wants to keep order in the family.

Good question, Kathy, and I like Roger's comment. It makes me wonder though -- where is Zeus? I don't have a back story, but maybe Silver can help us out with that. I find it interesting though that Poseidon is cast in such a moderating role here, a negotiator, a peace maker of sorts. That doesn't seem to be his place in the rest of the Odyssey, and it's certainly not his role with regard to Odysseus.

Kathy wrote: "I'm listening to Lombardo's reading of his own text, and it does sound "dignified and elevated" ..."

I like the Lombardo translation a lot (never heard his reading). It is casual in tone, but seems to get the heart of the writing very well. The casualness is a big plus, IMO. I wonder if some of the archaic older translations were not only limited by literary traditions, but also overly venerated the original?

By no means do I intend to imply that Lombardo does not! I can't help thinking his briskness, his immediacy, and his casualness might be very close to what a listener heard from Homer once upon a time. Why would Homer seek exalted or compound-complex renderings that would have made his song too removed to absorb easily on the spot?

Roger wrote: "Men are willing to cry in public in this society..."

A great point to make, by itself, thank you, Roger. I love that fact. The ancient Greeks, for all their blood-thirstiness, still allowed men to be fully men in all dimensions. It makes me wonder why we do less.

Thomas wrote: "Good question, Kathy, and I like Roger's comment. It makes me wonder though -- where is Zeus? I don't have a back story, but maybe Silver can help us out with that. I find it interesting though th..."

There does not appear to any clear reason for why Poseidon choose to intervene and insists upon Hephaestus releasing Aphrodite and Ares, though according to the version of the story told by Ovid, Poseidon was stricken with love and lust upon seeing the nude body of Aphrodite and that is what compelled him to intervene on her behalf.

It might also have to do with a question of rank, so to speak, as suggested by Roger, and this could perhaps be one of the reasons why Zeus opts not to involve himself in this matter. The fact that Ares is the son of Zeus and Hera, while Hephaestus is the child of Hera alone. So Zeus might be reluctant to side with Heapahstus over his own son, as well he might think that it could cause more trouble if he were to be seen to take the side of Ares who is in the wrong here.

Michael wrote: "I like the Lombardo translation a lot (never heard his reading). It is casual in..."

My thoughts exactly! Sometimes we place these archaic and old (think Shakespeare) texts on a pedestal when in fact they were performed for ordinary people in their own time. A more "ordinary" rendering of the text seems perfectly appropriate, and it's still plenty poetic.

Silver wrote: "The fact that Ares is the son of Zeus and Hera, while Hephaestus is the child of Hera alone. So Zeus might be reluctant to side with Heapahstus over his own son, as well he might think that it could cause more trouble if he were to be seen to take the side of Ares who is in the wrong here.
"

Thanks for this, Silver. Makes perfect sense, and you could imagine this same family dynamic playing itself out today (even in a similar situation? yikes!).

There is one thing I'm curious about. In my Rouse edition, In book 8, as the youth are gathering to play in the games, thier names are listed. Rouse's footnote says the names are made up to "suite the seafaring islanders".

"Young champions were found in pleanty; Topship and Quicksea and Paddler, Seaman and Poopman, Beacher and Oarsman, Deepsea and Lookout, Goahead and Upaboard;"
There are many more, but the list ends with the three sons of Alcinoos, Laodamas, halios and Clytoneos. Those names are the same in my Pope's translation.

The Pope's translation has..
"The games begin; ambitious of the prize, Acroneus, Thoon, and Eretmeus rise; The prize Ocyalus and Prymneus claim, Anchialus and Ponteus, chiefs of fame. There Proreus, Nautes, Eratreus..."

So what I'm asking is whether Rouse just made this up or if the Latin names listed were words also used for nautical purposes?

Juliette wrote: "There is one thing I'm curious about. In my Rouse edition, In book 8, as the youth are gathering to play in the games, thier names are listed. Rouse's footnote says the names are made up to "suit..."

I think Rouse is anglicizing the Greek names, trying to convey what the names do in Greek. "Topship" = "acro" (high) + "neus" (ship), etc.

Roger wrote: "I think Rause is anglicizing the Greek names, trying to convey what the names do in Greek. "Topship" = "acro" (high) + "neus" (ship), etc. ..."

Thank you Roger, this is exactly what I was wanting to know. You rock!