Vaginal Fantasy Book Club discussion

This is the official thread to post SPOILER comments after you read the book. Hopefully other people will start other threads if wanted, non-spoiler, chapter specific, etc.

I have this book in first-edition hardback, so clearly I'm a fan!

Ahh, I'm totally jealous. ;P

I've tried to get other people to read this one because I loved it so much, but no one else likes it. :(

I think the bdsm is a bit too dark and off putting. But I just adore the beautiful love story, makes my heart ache every time I think about it...

I own all in this and related series. It took me a bit to get into the world, but once it clicked, it was clearly hard for me to stop reading. Sex is an element of its own throughout the series. Carey handles it so well that it was never off putting to me. I almost should reread this since it has been done years. I have a signed copy myself. Great pick!

Lisa wrote: "Ahh, I'm totally jealous. ;P

I've tried to get other people to read this one because I loved it so much, but no one else likes it. :(

I think the bdsm is a bit too dark and off putting. But I jus..."
Its the most beautiful love story ever, I seriously cried many times, just epic love story. And yea, I'm not into the dark stuff, but it's done so well. So excited for this month!

My fiancee has been trying to get me to read them for some time, so now's as good a time as any. Not afraid of a little BDSM - just wait till you read "Story of O" - it's not wrapped in scifi/fantasy. It's straight up erotica, and one of the most widely read books in the BDSM canon.

Arghh the iPhone ate my previous post!

I'm definitely interested in what our male readers think of this book.

I tried to get my partner to read the series, he didn't enjoy it at all. And not because of the rough sexy times either... His problem? The political intrigue was weak and "girly".

Bleh! What does he know!?

I adore this book *and* my husband does too. He's bought me the new book in the series every year for my birthday... too bad the streak gets broken this year :(
The first time I read this book was in high school, whilst on a roadtrip with my family. I remember they stopped at some fish hatchery (!) or something, and I refused to leave the car because I wanted to keep reading. Also, I've read the sequel, Kushiel's Chosen, so much that my copy is literally falling apart at the seams.

Read this book around the time it came out (I'll be honest, picked it up because of it's amazing cover), and for some reason it just never clicked with me. The story picked up in the second half, but I still just wanted it to be over as soon as possible. Never really connected with the characters in a meaningful way... I have no interest in reading the rest of the books, despite the kinda-cliffhanger. I dunno... I almost want to read it again, but then I remember how bored I got near the end and just want to stay far, far away.

I will say that I was very intrigued with the the marque(?) system. That was probably my favorite world-building element of the whole story.

Is it bad that the first chapter had me go to dictionary.com, like, twenty-three times? Not to state that I'm having a personal problem or anything. Carey is a beautiful writer and I like finding new words to use for my own personal writings

Ahhh, that's one of the best parts, IMO, her gorgeous, lush prose. (When someone says lush prose, this is the book I think of!)

I read this book, and book two, a few years ago and I remember being really confused. So many names and important political stuff to remember...yeesh! I did enjoy them while I was reading them. So much so that I bought book three. I just never bothered to finish it out. I still have all three books, so I'm going to reread them. Just for you, Felicia!

OMG I'm so glad this is the book of the month!! I discovered the first trilogy in '04 and it saved my sanity while traveling for work. I have all of the Terre D'Ange books and just love them. There is a lot to digest in these but it is worth it.

KD also changed the way I thought of BDSM for the better. That aspect of the book is not for everyone, but if you are open to reading about it, it is very well done.

I am so excited to re-read this book, it is definitely one of my favorites. This was probably my first "naughty" book as well.

Some people seem to be having the same issue I did the first time I read it so I wanted to mention that the language in the first few chapters is a little flowery and intense. It can be a bit hard to jump in to the world if you're not used to that sort of prose. Once you start getting into it though the language becomes more natural and it stops being something you notice (at least it did for me). It is totally worth it to keep reading this book.

I can not say enough how awesome this book is, it's one of the greatest adventure stories I've ever read and the love story is just so beautiful.

I read this book in college and I can't wait to revisit it! The political intrigue was my favorite part, but I'm a sucker for intrigue. I hope it's as good the second time around.

I just read this last month for the first time. I guess I couldn't wait for Felicia to pick it!

I really enjoyed it but thought it went a little long and drawn out in the middle. So much political intrigue, I'm not a big fan of that genre. But the romance, the sex scenes, the fantasy and the writing made up for it. Also logically the level of detail makes sense because Phèdre, who is narrating the story, would put a lot of detail. It's kinda her thing.

Also, I don't think Joscelin or Hyacinthe is an alpha male. But they are both amazing. There were some definite alpha males in the book though... Childric d'Essoms and Waldemar Selig come to mind. Also a new thing for this group an alpha female? Melisande Shahrizai totally alpha, evil and awesome.

Anyways, I'm excited to hear you guys chat about this next month.

I agree that Joscelin isn't an alpha male and I love that part of the story. I love that he can let Phedre be who she is and do what she needs to do to be happy. It was the funnies thing. In our Ravelry group we were having our own chat during the Gabriel's Ghost discussion and I brought up this book and that the main male isn't alpha. One of the other people said she had been thinking about reading it and I told her she should. I laughed when a little while later Felicia picked this one. It was just meant to be.

I just finished reading this book a week ago. I love how Joscelin is not an alpha male, yet it doesn't diminish his character at all. He allows Phedre to be who and what she needs to be without getting all bent out of shape. I can't wait to see the discussions that will be brought about by this story.

I will agree that it can be a little difficult to get into if you are not used to the flowery language, but I love all the subtle aspects of political intrigue that makes this story one I continue to read over and over.

I tried to read this book while ago but I couldn't get into it. I'm going to give it another go, because if the Vaginal Fantasy Hangout says it's good, it must be good! :P

So glad this is next month's pick! It's one of my all time fantasy novels. It literally took me years to get my husband to read it (he reads mainly non-fiction), and I was so worried he wouldn't like it (he's far more critical to speculative fiction than I am), especially after he felt the latter two books in the "Farseer" trilogy were way padded and too long. But he actually really liked this one, and said that while it builds very slowly, everything in it is important for the world building. Now I just need to get him to read the rest of the trilogy.

I love this book so much! I bought an ebook version awhile back just so I could have it forever - my paperback was falling apart. I NEED a hardback copy. :)

So excited to reread it with everyone.

This has been on my to-read list for quite awhile. Now I have extra incentive to start reading it.

I agree that Joscelin isn't an alpha male and he does EVENTUALLY accept the darker aspects of Phedre's character but it is definitely a long time coming. I think that makes him more believable as a character, though, because it forces him to grow outside of his Cassiline Brotherhood teachings. When the two first met, for example, they did not exactly hit it off, which is always my favorite dynamic in a romance.

I finally had to buy this book in ebook form because I always end up loaning my copies to friends who love it and never end up giving it back. I'm like the Gideon company, except with Kushiel's Dart instead of bibles. :)

When people talk about the "darker" side - do you mean dark as in evil, or dark as in uncomfortable sexuality?

Sarge wrote: "When people talk about the "darker" side - do you mean dark as in evil, or dark as in uncomfortable sexuality?"

I don't mean dark = evil. I'd say that most would agree that although Phedre, as an anguisette, is not evil she certainly has a unique sensibility and a darker skill set when it comes to sexual situations.

In the book the different houses are described in a similar fashion as well. Eglantine house, for example, is bright and shining and inviting, whereas Mandrake house is much more veiled. I'd imagine a patron wouldn't just wander into Mandrake or Valerian house - he/she would only go there if their speciality is what the patron wanted.

Yay! These are some of my favorite books! I own all the Terre D'Ange books and even have the Naamah's Trilogy as signed copies.

Carey's prose is just so lovely and I find myself completely immersed in her world. Speaking of her world, Carey has such great world building!

What I think does it for me most in this original novel is the combination of political intrigue (that's actually good!) and the well written use of sexuality. Phedre in herself is also an amazing character.

I do understand that the size of these books can be off-putting for some, but they are so worth it!

I'm really looking forward to re-reading this series now!

This is the book that introduced me to vaginal fantasy and it is by far the best series out there!!!

I love these books. The first trilogy might be my favorite three books ever. My only problem with them is that I never understood where the timeline of the books diverged from ours. For some reason it just never made sense to me. I prefer to think of it as a total fantasy world and ignore the alternate history aspect. Anyone else have that issue?

It's funny, I was just telling some friends about this book on Saturday night and one of them texted me a couple hours before the chat to ask me for the author's name so she could give it a try. So excited! I don't personally know anyone else who has read the series, so I'm psyched that it's our June pick. Can't wait to discuss! :)

I don't think the timeline ever actually diverged from the real world one - this is just an alternate history of a place that has magic and angels but looks a lot like our world.

Coral wrote: "I love these books. The first trilogy might be my favorite three books ever. My only problem with them is that I never understood where the timeline of the books diverged from ours. For some reason..."

The split if there ever really was one is at least as far back as the death of Christ because it is out of Christ's blood and Mary Magdalene's tears the Elua is born. It probably goes back even further. I prefer not to think of it as a split from our world but as a completely different version of our world.

The world building in this book/series is so well crafted. I actually didn't even realise this could be interpreted as alt history till about half way through book 2.

I know, I'm a bit thick. Since there is that map in the front of the book, and all the place names are oh-so familiar... Whatever, I thought it was just a really good fantasy adventure that had some real world influences ;P

Stephanie wrote: "I don't mean dark = evil. I'd say that most would agree that although Phedre, as an anguisette, is not evil she certainly has a unique sensibility and a darker skill set when it comes to sexual situations."

See, it's the dark part I'm having trouble with - is it because it's BDSM, or is there something dark involved. Define dark?

Well, not only is there BDSM involved, there's also Melisande, who is exceptionally dark; as well as the threat presented by Waldemar Selig and the betrayal of Anafiel.

Most people don't really think of lovemaking as being painful. I think a great many can understand how a little sensory overload can make for a fun time (a la the parable of the cinnamon candy taught to children at Valerian House), but it's hard for a lot of people to wrap their brains around someone like Phedre, who actively wants to seek out pain.

And it's not only sexual masochism that Phedre enjoys. She's not just a woman with a kink for erotic pain. It's all pain. It's having a spontaneous orgasm when her tailor accidentally pricks her with a straight pin. She feels pleasure when Waldemar starts cutting her on the battlements, even though contextually, it's not a romantic scene at all and she's terrified of him. In later books, when she has a terrible fight with Joscelin, she even gets some pleasure from that, from the pain of his leaving. The only time she ever gives her signale (in the first book) is when Melisande is about to do something that will permanently injure her (and even when she gives it in later books, it's partly because she fears permanent injury).

I think that sort of relationship to pain is incredibly dark, especially when Carey takes it to its fullest and most horrifying extent in Kushiel's Avatar. Pain isn't just something Phedre likes in the bedroom, it affects her entire life and how she relates to the world. And that is pretty dark.

THAT makes complete sense, thank you. It's more like the traditional media/fiction depiction of a masochist who takes it into all aspects of her life. Akin to say a shoe fetishist who takes their pleasure in it outside of the realm of sex. I can enjoy sex with women, but it doesn't mean I get all worked up every time I meet one.

A good distinction. Thanks.

I admit this book is the reason I came to GR. I buy a LOT of books (counts about 4,000 last check) but very few do I not wait for the paperback. Every time one of these comes out I'm there - money in hand. The books are dark, but they are so well done and yes there is *gasp* sex. But it's not like the HBO version of Blood and Boobies (I mean True Blood) - the sex is there for a reason not just let's add some sex here. It's a tool and more. I love that Phedre knows what she wants and is too strong to let it go. You literally watch her grow through the book. It's amazing. This is one of the best fantasy books out there - and it happens to have a little BDSM.

I DO NOT recommend this book on Audio. I've read the book numerous times, but it wasn't until I listened to it that I realized that the author uses certain phrases CONSTANTLY and that I will admit got on my nerves. Still enjoy reading the series, not a bad excuse to reread!

As for the content of the plot, the way it is written is Phedre does not have just a "kink" - it is literally something that is a part of her, an avatar's "gift" that she is threatened with the loss of at points in the series. Some people get healing, some get visions, she feels pain as identical to sexual contact. I'd like to point out that Phedre does happen to have quite enjoyable vanilla sexy fun times in the series.

Joscelin may not be an alpha, but is a good candidate for beta. That being said, very few characters, including those that think of themselves as dominant, are actually really alphas. Phedre is a fighter, but she not only is a masochist by godright, but she is at least by training if not my inclination, a submissive. She certainly understands power exchange, and that surrender does not always mean lack of power. Her surrender is how she frequently gains her power - which is not a foreign concept in real life BDSM.

I will agree with Tegan, I found myself thinking up drinking games whenever I read certain phrases over and over. But for me that part of it really didn't affect my opinion of the series. We all use familiar turns of phrases in our lives that could be put to "you said X, take a shot of tequila (or booze of your choice)."

This has been may favorite series since I started reading them in High School. I've also been encouraging people to read these. They have such a great story and the sexual side of these doesn't at all feel "porn-y." Honestly I haven't read any of the other books the group goes over. I've never read straight romance (other then these which I never really thought of them that way), so I often times feel out of the loop a little. (To clarify I'm actually gay and have read several lesbian themed romances.) Knowing that this series was picked has me incredibly excited. Actually the Black Jewels ones as we because I also own those and again never thought of them specifically in the romance genre.

This is one of my all time favorite books as well, and I agree with Alisha that the sex doesn't feel "porn-y." I am sooo glad this was chosen, it will be my third or fourth time re-reading it, and I am glad for the excuse.

I read about 21 chapters before I gave up and decided to listen to the audio book instead. Since I'm not used to such flowery language it was probably the best bet for me. So far I am enjoying it.

Read this back around book #2 in the VFH after Veronica and Felicia recommended and found it totally engrossing.

Carey describes everything so beautifully it doesn't feel like words you are reading, but seeing the world appearing in front of you.

I read it on my Kindle App and remember finding it tough keeping track of all the characters as they elongated French names. I kept having to go back to the map and cast list at the beginning.

The book is nowhere near as graphic in the sex scenes as some of the others in the VFH. But then, the BDSM content could make it too difficult for many to swallow if it's too graphic.

The plot is in the grand tradition of Dangerous Liaisons, in its political ploys and gossip for sport. Which makes for a bit of a page turner, if you enjoy intellectual thrillers.

I'm about 1/3 of the way thru the book and very much enjoying. I wanted to mention another set of books that this is reminding me of. The Beauty series by Ann Rice (though under a pseudonym I can't remember right now). It's loosely based on the story of Sleeping Beauty but her awakening is to sex and BDSM. It is much more "porny" than Kushiel's Dart, but actually an enjoyable story in a quasi-historical setting.

A. N. Roquelare, though my copies have her real name on them. They're pretty good, and I really liked the sensuality of the books. Though, yeah, it's got so many sex scenes, I think it drifts from romance over into erotica territory.

I just finished this book and while I did enjoy the writing; I will admit I skipped paragraphs here and there when I felt it was running on too long. The world Carey creates is fascinating but the BDSM made me horribly uncomfortable and while I saw the glimmer of the love story between Phedre and Joscelin, it was never enough for me. I don't believe Phedre will ever find the love/pain balance that she needs so I am very sad for her. I will continue to read the rest of the series mostly for the excellent writing but I have a feeling Phedre will never find love so my reading will be predicting disaster for poor Phedre.

I'm Listening to the audio book cause I had a couple credits to spend. I'm only 10% so far 'cause I had to goback and re listen. I was having a terrible time catching all the various characters vs. legends. What I ended up doing was going to Wikipedia. That helped a lot. I.m hoping once I have the religion and legends solidified, i can enjoy the story more. I'm starting to get a glimmer of it now:)

Kristen - I did the same thing! Wikipedia describes the religion really well. Although Carey does describe it in the book, I got impatient (and too curious) about who Elua was etc. Wikipedia does a great job of explaining not only the religion but also the royal family connections etc.

Only on Chapter 7, but I'm fully on board with young Phedre & her life (makes me want to re-read Memoirs of a Geisha & compare) but adult Phedre as the narrator is starting to bother me a bit. She keeps pulling me out of the child's story and makes me want to highlight scenes she says will be important later. Its distracting being told every paragraph that this moment will later prove significant.

I just finished reading this for the first time and....Wow. I think this book is probably one of the most epic I have ever read. The scope of it, once you're finished, is just mind boggling. Every character introduced has a role, no matter how big or small, in the greater scheme of things.

The things Phedre has to go through before the abrupt end to the book is shocking. Most fantasy books will have the hero/heroine go through maybe ONE of the events that Phedre had to endure and that would be the end of it. But she is tested time and again and the way in which she overcomes the odds is always uniquely her.

I cried countless times during this book. I got so attached to the characters and what they meant to Phedre that I took it VERY personally when something horrible happened to any of them! I can't even remember the last time a book or a movie made me cry but this one had tears stinging at my eyes for the good last quarter of it.

I loved the world building and the elegant prose. I thought the story started out strong and then took a bit of a lull up to the point where Phedre officially become a Servant of Naamah but it just kind of shot off for me from there and I couldn't put it down. It was a bit lighter on romance than I was expecting but had all of the emotional impact I would have wanted, anyway. I'm extremely pleased :)

I'm excited to start the next book in the series once I finish the ones I've got lined up. I'm juggling a good three other books at the moment but I just couldn't put this one down to give the others any of my attention. AMAZING pick for this month.

I just finished the book and absolutely loved it. Phedre is such an interesting character, the world building is incredible, and I love the lore behind the cultures.

On a personal note, this book helped so much because I just went through a really painful breakup which is continuing to be painful in a really awful way, and the world it built enveloped and helped me find a place to hide from real life for just long enough to regroup. Along with some other things it's been pretty key in my first attempts to pull myself out of depression.

So thank you very much for bringing this book to my attention Felicia, it's by far my favorite one that we've read since I joined the group =)

I really enjoyed this book, even though I used kindle's built in dictionary about a million times, and had to constantly refer to the Kushiel's Legacy Wiki to help me remember who all the character's were.

I was particularly pleased with the way the author took a class of people generally scorned by modern society (prostitutes) and made them not only respected in the world she made, but made one of them the hero.

I will admit that at times I found it a little too convenient that everyone Phedre needed to get information from happened to be into S&M. There were a whole spectrum of sexual proclivities represented by the 13 houses of the night court, but everyone who knew anything crucial to the plot just couldn't wait to tie Phedre up, whip her, then spill their guts. No one with the exception of Joscelin ever said No thanks whipping women til they bleed isn't really my scene. It felt a little forced.

Despite some misgivings about the plot, and so many semi-forgettable characters introduced early in the story that I had to look up who the hell the were when thaey finally became important later, I did really enjoy the book. When I finished it last night I immediately started reading the sequel. And I will say that in my personal opinion Naamah's Pearl=the greatest euphemism for clitoris in the history of literature.