Dreamless discussion

Caution do not read ahead if you havent read Starcrossed & possibly Dreamless

**i apologize in advance for the long post!

So this is on another thread I posted but it was suggested that I post a new topic based on why the Delos family has no clue that Helen can't possibly be Ajax Delos's daughter and therefore not also a member of the family. Here is my post from what Josephine Angelini emailed me back and what I thought:

Email from Angelini:
This is the quote from the author's email to me w/ permission as long as you know this is for people who read or don't mind spoilers, and mentioned in the subject is spoilers:

Angela,

It's not a silly question at all.  Ajax did die 21 years ago, but the Delos family doesn't know that (except for Tantalus, who killed him) because he and Daphne ran away together.  They all think Ajax had to have died after Helen was conceived b/c Daphne said that Helen is his daughter.  But she isn't.  Daphne tells Pandora when the death actually happened, (which on page 286 of the nook book Starcrossed, Daphne says "Since Ajax left the world nineteen years ago, there has been no good in it for me" this is my typing here in bold not The author) Pandora figures out that Helen can't be Ajax's daughter, and then Pandora dies.  No one knows that Daphne is lying, and Helen thinks she and Lucas can't be together.

Don't worry, though.  ;)

Best,
Josie

Original post from prior topic

••So this is what I have concluded: They thought Ajax died 21 years ago when both Daphne and Ajax  were fighting to the death (or something like that) At the last moment they had a situation quite similar to Lucas and Helen. Where they both saved each others lives. However, their family thought that was when Ajax died (21 years ago) and didn't know that he had in fact survived along with Daphne. But then eventually he was killed by Tantalus 19 years ago.  When she tells them they ran away and got married and had Helen she doesn't say when so they take her word that it would fit in the time frame.

Since Pandora was the only one in the family who was told how many years ago Ajax died, no one else knows because she is dead. 

**so I know this probably sounds like I've had too much time on my hands. But sometimes things bug me :)

Ah, finally it makes sense! I had thought they all knew when he died, and they were just being incredibly stupid. And if she said "dont worry", i can only assume and hope that Lucas and Helen will be together in the end ;) Thank you for pursuing this!

Gloria wrote: "Ah, finally it makes sense! I had thought they all knew when he died, and they were just being incredibly stupid. And if she said "dont worry", i can only assume and hope that Lucas and Helen will ..."

I know right me too!! I am also on team Lucas And your welcome.

that's great to know and all but then i wonder who is Helen's real father. I mean i feel like that's a way more important question cuz i feel that's how she got all her amazing powers

Yeah I did wonder that too and probably mentioned it on another post. I kinda think there is a possibility that maybe she really is Jerry's baby. But then several of the gods and goddess mentioned cousin etc. And Helen says that she's not the one wearing a crown and then Persephone says not yet. Or something to that effect. It would be totally crazy if her dad was someone like Zeus or something because I think Hades may have called her niece. But then it could be because they are all related to the gods some way or another. But Daphne and Helen have "the face" so really her baby's daddy could be anyone...

I'm thinking the twist might be that she is Zeus daughter, because of the lightening. Unless, she is Jerry's daughter.

Liza: that would be so awesome if not at least interesting! I keep reading how strong she is and hasnt even tapped into her fullest ability. I can see this going way beyond a trilogy and hopefully it will... A best seller on her first novel.

I really think Zues is Helen's dad. Hades calls her niece and Ares said "I see you there, my pretty little pet," Ares said, no longer laughing. "You cannot hide behind your pretty eyelids. Come. Open them. Let me see our father's eyes.".

I'm pretty sure Zues is Ares father. And her uncle being Hades can help explain why she can actually control the underworld. But if Poseidon was her uncle wouldn't she be able to have some control over the sea. I could be grasping at straws here but it makes sense. And it could be possible because her mom has "the face" Any opinions?

Excellent! Thanks, Angela. I actually thought about that situation with Ajax and Daphne too but never really confirmed it until now. Straight from the author too! Yay, Team Lucas. :)

Still there is a thing that bothers me. Even IF Helen and Lucas were cousins, what would be the big problem ? It is legal in the US to marry one's cousin. The only problem would be that 2 of the 4 houses were united if they are together but that has absolutely nothing to do with them being cousins or not. Can somebody explain that ???

That cleared up so much! Thank you for posting that, I can't wait to find out more about who Helen's dad actually is. I can sense another big storyline there!!

Kitcat wrote: "Still there is a thing that bothers me. Even IF Helen and Lucas were cousins, what would be the big problem ? It is legal in the US to marry one's cousin. The only problem would be that 2 of the 4 ..."

I think it's more Helen's disgusted by it, that's how it seemed to me. Maybe it's got to do with Helen. She had a completely different upbringing to Lucas and the family. I don't believe that his family said anything bad by it. I don't know, that's my best guess!

Kitcat wrote: "Still there is a thing that bothers me. Even IF Helen and Lucas were cousins, what would be the big problem ? It is legal in the US to marry one's cousin. The only problem would be that 2 of the 4 ..."

I do agree that Helen herself feels disgusted by it. Probably even more so since all the Delos cousins think of each other as siblings. However the primary reason I believe this, is because of what the outcome would be. Here's a quote from page 302 of Dreamless

"All of this is really, really wrong," Ariadne said compassionately, but almost begging Helen. "I'm so sorry for you both, but you have to stop this. Incest, even if it it unintentional incest where the two Scions don't know they're related, is another theme that gets repeated again and again. It always ends in the worst possible way. You know that right?"

Earlier they mentioned an outcome of that being that the Scions children would suffer from madness. I know it grosses the Delos family either way, but I think their primary concern was what their children would be like and also keeping the houses separate. That's my thoughts.

Thank god you cleared this up! Thanks! *phew* I just finished reading this book now and was distraught over it. (OK maybe that's a little extreme). The book in general has my pulling out my hair. I've read a bit about Dreamless and I hear there's a love triangle, which usually I enjoy, but in this case I'm very stressed about it. I'm at least hoping that Lucas and Helen figure it out in the next book!

Natasha wrote: "Thank god you cleared this up! Thanks! *phew* I just finished reading this book now and was distraught over it. (OK maybe that's a little extreme). The book in general has my pulling out my hair. I..."

The love triangle part of it was mild in Dreamless. I think there will be so much going on in te 3rd book I don't see how she will wrap it all up. Still hoping there are going to be many more... I really do hope Helen ends up w/ someone in the end. Even if it's not my choice. I've read too many books that leave it open to make everyone happy.

Musicsoul26, I was worried during that scene, Daphne was becoming too attached to Hector.

All of this does make you wonder in the end who Helen's biological daughter is.

Who knows it might be a character who hasn't been introduced to the series yet.

YEAH!!!! wohhooo! Angela, thnx for clearing that up, it was real helpful. :-D

I'm still going with Zues is her daddy. When Ares is beating the mess out of Helen he says let me see our fathers eyes. He's Zues'a child. Also I'm pretty sure hades calls her niece. Although it could be bc they're ultimately related in the end.

I really enjoyed Starcrossed and I enjoyed Dreamless even more. Though if I'm honest, this story line bugged me a little - I was always thinking "can't they count?" Glad this has been cleared up, thanks.
I think Helen's true parentage is an interesting plot - almost all of the characters say how unbelievable strong she is, stronger than all of them. There's the lightning, flight and the decender ability, so maybe her father is one of the Gods... but I thought the Gods where locked away, unable to visit Earth? If so how did Zeus manage to hook up with Daphne? In the in-between bit, where Ares beat the crap out of Helen?
Well, what's clear is Josie seems to thread hints into previous books. E.g. Helen writing on her mirror about the river she can't remember. Seemed like a small thing in Starcrossed (to me anyway) and yet it turned out to be a important aspect of the plot in Dreamless. Which worries me, the whole Tyrant thing. I like Orion and he seems quite fun (obviously the whole Earthshaking, tragic family back story aside). And that's if the prophesy is about him; Lucus after all is going down a dark path... I worry for him, too. :S
One thing I liked about this book is that I felt the triangle was well done. I've read other books where I'm clearly backing one guy (Edward Cullen, Eric Northman <- :P) and hating/annoyed by the other guy (Bill Compton/Jacob Black), but this one I actually like Orion. He wasn't obviously hitting on Helen, trying to steal her away. He had feelings for her, but knew she was still in love/getting over Lucus and is vulnerable and is more of a friend, helping her with her task. There's only one other book I've found that I wouldn't mind the leading lady with either guy (Unearthly - perfer Christian, but like Tucker). I'm leaning towards Lucus, though, if I'm honest - even with the whole shadowmaster/going over to the darkside thing.
Anyway, (sorry I'm long and rambly) can't wait for the next book, I'm sure all will be revealed.

see I don't think zeus is her daddy because daphne also has lightening power.

Iloveparanormals!! wrote: "see I don't think zeus is her daddy because daphne also has lightening power."

This is very true. But Ares does mention let me see our fathers eyes (quoted above)and I'm pretty sure Hades called her niece. I know I've said this before. (I'm not arguing either). I don't see how it really would be him, just only explanation that makes sense to me. That would be if Zues is Ares father and he meant it in the literal sense. Who knows he could be referring that shes a descendant. LoL watch it be nobody or actually be Jerry's, although I really doubt that one.

I love everyone's opinion! It's good to see it from more than one perspective.

lol if it was Jerry I would feel kinda let down. lol. I mean I love Jerry but..... he's just a human. lol. Yes, I remember Hades calling her niece but I just assumed it was because she is a descendant from Aphrodite. Plus how would Daphne have sex with a god? Remember they havent been allowed on earth for years.

But you know what I wonder about? Helen's eyes. Remember at the end she has that lightening scar on one of her irises. And it's a scar that can never heal.. hm.......

YES HELEN AND LUCAS CAN BE TOGETHER ONCE THEY FIGURE IT OUT!!!!!!!!:):):)

Why does Daphne lie about Helen being Lucas' cousin? Cause she doesn't want them to be together? Daphne kinda got on my nerves with that in this book.

Because that woman has some other motives going on. She is so shady and it ticks me off that she's this way and Helen has no clue and is comforted by her mom at the end of the book. I don't know why she wants to start this war but I don't think there could be anything good to her motives. Even if she did it for some crazy reason like her and Lucas would bring about the end of the world bc of a prophesy. Should have told the truth.

Angela wrote: "Because that woman has some other motives going on. She is so shady and it ticks me off that she's this way and Helen has no clue and is comforted by her mom at the end of the book. I don't know wh..."

Hopefully, the next book will give more of Daphne's motives and Helen and the others will realize the truth.

Amy ~Lover of Books~ wrote: "Angela wrote: "Because that woman has some other motives going on. She is so shady and it ticks me off that she's this way and Helen has no clue and is comforted by her mom at the end of the book. ..."

Yeah but I'll bet it'll be something that exonerates her... She doesn't deserve it.

Angela wrote: "Amy ~Lover of Books~ wrote: "Angela wrote: "Because that woman has some other motives going on. She is so shady and it ticks me off that she's this way and Helen has no clue and is comforted by her..."

Do you know if book three, Goddess, will be the final book in the series?

Amy ~Lover of Books~ wrote: "Angela wrote: "Amy ~Lover of Books~ wrote: "Angela wrote: "Because that woman has some other motives going on. She is so shady and it ticks me off that she's this way and Helen has no clue and is c..."

yea it is the final book

I know it says trilogy but I hope it goes passed it. Sales are amazing so maybe they'll contract for more. Wouldn't be the first time.

Ok so Angelini emailed me back, and the 3rd book will be the last in the series. So sad! But at least she'll write more books & hopefully it will be YA w/ just as many loveable characters.

Emily wrote: "I think that the twist could be that Hades is her father since she's the only one who can go to the underworld. It also makes since because Daphne seems like she could be dark enough to actually co..."

Yeah but hades calls her niece

Hi! I'm new to this whole thing, but I couldn't help but get in on the conversation for this awesome trilogy!! :)

Just finished Starcrossed and Dreamless for the second time through and this exact discrepancy was bothering me as well, but thank you for clearing it up. Lol Also, another possible explanation for why so many of the characters take Daphne's word without so much as batting an eyelash could be because of the influence/persuasiveness of the Face and the Cestus...maybe? haha

Either way, I love the complexity and intricate nature of this plot, and look forward to more twists and turns in Goddess. :D

Thank you for clearing this up!

The gap between Starcrossed and Dreamless left me a little confused as to why the Delos family believe that Ajax is Helen's father, even though he died years before she was born. I've just finished reading Dreamless and this really helped! :D

:)

Well.... I do have a slight obsession with this series....:D I pray that this will happen -
There will be a huge fight between Orion and Lucas, because Orion is controlled by the Furies (?) and pisses him off :D they fight for Helen, and after the fight, Orion is helped up by Daphne and Lucas is helped by Helen...
Daphne could hten get angry and shout *YOUR COUSINS*
BUT lUCAS CAN SENSE THE LIE...HE TELLS HELEN , THEY WORK IT OUT AND STAY TOGETHER FOREVER LIKE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO!!!!!
Daphne has previously said that Helen is Ajax's child, and she has began to believe her own lie, but if she says the words *Your cousins*, maybe that will trigger something from Lucas...??
I L.O.V.E this series, and I pray that Helen and Lucas can get together.....
OBSESSED!! <3

But how could Daphne make it to the underworld? and I asked the author and she said we will def find out who the father is in Goddess

Yeah it would totally stink if it want cleared up in the final book. Good thing she is working on another series. I don't particularly believe that Zues is Helen's father, just that it could fit. It's more than likely something out there like someone we haven't been introduced to yet. Or even crazier like Orion's dad or even just human Jerry. I'm always way off in my guessing. Well in a little less than a year we'll be posting on thy topic. :) we should vote or have a contest.

Angela wrote: "Yeah it would totally stink if it want cleared up in the final book. Good thing she is working on another series. I don't particularly believe that Zues is Helen's father, just that it could fit. I..."

Another series!?!
And yeah, let vote!! <3 can't wait!

yea let's vote!!!!

Created a poll, voting is open until next May.
Who do you think Helen's dad is poll

Ellie
Yeah Angelini said that the 3rd book will be the last and that she is busy working on another series. Although she could not say what it was about or when it's coming out.

Iloveparanormals!! The Oracle (& just about everyone else) says Helen can go into the Underworld because she is "the descender" & Orion her "shield". So we've read that... But I have also wondered why too. (this may have not been what you were thinking, but it got me thinking.) I would think they would have to be of close descendant to one of the 3 main gods. And maybe the last descender was able to descend was because he was one of their babies. Or if it's simply something the fates allowed to happen.

Angela wrote: "Ellie
Yeah Angelini said that the 3rd book will be the last and that she is busy working on another series. Although she could not say what it was about or when it's coming out.
Ooohh! Can't wait1 Thanks <3

Angela wrote: "Ellie
Yeah Angelini said that the 3rd book will be the last and that she is busy working on another series. Although she could not say what it was about or when it's coming out.

Iloveparanormals!!..."


Yes! I was thinking how could she be the descender. But then Daphne seemed so shocked when Helen was like I can descend in the underworld

Iloveparanormals!! wrote: "Angela wrote: "Ellie
Yeah Angelini said that the 3rd book will be the last and that she is busy working on another series. Although she could not say what it was about or when it's coming out.

Ilo..."

You are so right! She's either a darn good liar or was really surprised. But if she was surprised, it could be because she didn't know how much godliness she got from her baby daddy.

One more thing y'all, did the Delos family ever hear Daphne say that Helen was their cuz? Or at least Lucas? I know he said it was the truth because Helen wasn't lying. She believed what Daphne said and therefore was not lying. But did Lucas, the false finder, ever hear it from queen B Daphnee??

LoL I have never discussed a book this much before.

Angela,

Lol I honestly don't recall that Daphne ever actually said COUSIN to Lucas or in front of him because when he initially found out Helen told him and Daphne told the rest of the family. Then the whole "cousin" thing went taboo because it hurt Lucas and Helen to talk too much about in front of everyone else...

I think I remember Daphne scolding Helen about her relationship with Lucas because he was her "cousin," but never scolding Lucas in particular.

SO, all that to say, you may be onto something ;)

P.S. It's okay! Haha I've never discussed a book this much either. This is the first series since Harry Potter that I felt the need to reread because a) it's just so DANG good and b) I picked up on several things the second time I read it that I didn't the first time I read it.

Its funny how no one can count and figure out Helen isnt related to them. But thanks for clearing it up Angela... and i really hope the winky means that she will end up with Lucas because even thought i love Orion... she HAS to be with LUCAS!!! :/

Testify!! I like Orion, but like her best with Lucus Don't forget to vote, link on this discussion.

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I created another poll on who you want Helen to end up with. I'm all for Helen and Lucas, but it will be interesting to see how many Orion fans we've got out there. I also added Morpheus as a choice for fun, since he liked her so much...

Who do you want Helen to end up with?

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this poll is going to be scary :P