Q&A with Alexandria Constantinova Szeman discussion

Currently seeking Indie, self-published (and traditional) authors who use POV well (all types) to include in Revised, Updated, Expanded 10th Anniversary Edition of Classic Mastering Point of View. Short or long fiction. (Book must be published so that readers can find it.) Do you want me to consider your book for inclusion?

Do you use 2nd person POV well? Are you published? If so, I'd like to see your work (see message 1 in this discussion).

Do you use Outer Limited POV well ("fly on the wall" POV)? If so, I'd like to see your work (see message 1 in this discussion).

Do you handle violent scenes, erotic scenes, setting, well in any POV? Are you Indie/self published? If so, I'd like to see your work (see message 1 in this discussion).

Dear Sophie,
A writer uses second person for various reasons: to address the readers, critics, actual or implied characters in the book, famous persons in or outside book, humanity in general, multiple audiences all at the same time, etc. Many postmodernist writers use it to parody its use in previous centuries.

Fielding does it regularly, addressing his readers and reviewers/critics, in his masterpiece Tom Jones. He also, however, mentions his readers in 3rd person, often when reassuring them, at critical moments, that all in the novel will turn out well: "It is now time to look after Sophia; whom the reader, if he loves her half so well as I do, will rejoice to find escaped from the clutches of her passionate father."

Note that to directly address a reader, an author must use 2nd person POV, since direct address, by definition, means using "You", whether stated or implied. When Fielding refers to his readers in 3rd person, he's not changing POV: he's merely mentioning his readers and reassuring them, as the author, writing in 1st person POV.

In Fielding's work, the "you" addressed is usually the reader of the book, who's told things like, "I'll regularly be interrupting my story, Dear Reader, to tell you things that I think are important for you to know" (that's 1st person POV -who's the author himself - and 2nd person POV- the reader of the novel- combined). The rest of the book is written in Unlimited (God) POV.

Dostoyevsky does it often in Notes from Underground, where the narrator (1st person POV), the Underground Man, periodically interrupts to say things like (I'm paraphrasing, since I can't find my copy), "You know when I told you I was sick? I was lying" (but we don't know who's being addressed: someone inside story or us as narrator's audience), and later: "You remember when I told you I was lying? I was lying when I said that." (Dostoyevsky is considered a modern writer because of his unreliable narrators, mimicking psychological realism).

Charlotte Bronte does it in her classic Jane Eyre when she writes, "Reader, I married him" (that's using second person POV, and is making it clear that Jane herself is "telling" her story to some reader whom she's addressing in that line -- not to be confused with Charlotte Bronte the author addressing the reader of Jane Eyre and saying that Charlotte the writer married Mr. Rochester, the protagonist of the novel).

There are a few other instances in Jane Eyre, but the point is to show that Jane is telling her story to an audience (and we are reading the story she's telling to that audience, though exactly who that audience is, is never made clear).

Jay McInerny writes his entire novel Bright Lights, Big City in 2nd person POV, with lines like these: "You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say that the terrain is entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy. You are at a nightclub talking to a girl with a shaved head."

The protagonist of this novel is a serious addict, and using 2nd person is the author's attempt to (successfully) connect non-addict readers with someone who uses as many drugs as the protagonist, by pointing out things like the opening lines do: YOU are not the type of person who does this (reader and protagonist) yet here YOU are (protagonist, and reader through reading).

McInerney's Bright Lights, Big City seems emotionally distant at first - a common complaint about the use of 2nd person POV in fiction, and against this book in particular, though it hit the bestseller list - but McInerney employs 2nd person POV so skillfully that the reader eventually feels emotionally connected to the protagonist and does feel as if the "you" of the reader and protagonist are the same type of person in many respects.

My own story, "Naked, with Glasses", from the collection of the same name, is entirely in 2nd person, and begins, "This is how the plan to kill your husband could begin. You come home early from work..." where "your husband steps out of the bedroom, while a beautiful young girl steps out behind him. Your headache suddenly gets worse." 2nd person POV is used to make all women feel "connected" to the protagonist, all women who've ever wanted to metaphorically "kill" their husbands for something severely annoying or upsetting to them.

2nd person POV can be used to address implied characters in a novel, i.e., characters who are not expressly introduced. In my own The Kommandant's Mistress, Max, the Kommandant of the title, relates Part One, using 1st person POV: he is the narrator. Occasionally, however, he addresses someone who seems to be asking him questions, as in this instance after describing his failed suicide attempt, "No, I wasn't afraid: I wasn't strong enough." Or this one, after he has eluded capture after the War: "No, that wasn't running away. That was saving myself." The reader eventually learns to whom Max is speaking in the novel when he does that: he is not addressing the reader, but another implied character in his section of the book, telling said character his own version of events.

In the same novel, in Part Two, the inmate who is forced to be his "mistress" narrates her story (1st person POV) and never uses 2nd person POV to address other characters in the novel or its readers (dialogue does not count): she is not telling her story for anyone else's benefit; she is doing it to heal herself, so she addresses no one using 2nd person POV as she "tells/writes" her story of what happened in the camp with the Kommandant.

2nd person POV is used to directly address readers: many authors do it (and have done so for centuries) to "draw readers in" to story, though using second person POV calls attention to the story as "story" and so runs the risk of knocking readers out of imaginary world. In the past, authors often used it to remind readers that they were reading a book written by an author who knew everything about the characters and would reveal all in good time. Postmodernists often use 2nd person POV to parody this older technique by interrupting the story with addresses to the Readers.

Tom Robbins does this in Even Cowgirls Get the Blues in a Section titled "Do Intrusive Authors/Personae Work?" when he writes, in 2nd person POV: "Reader, will you share a cup of the bubbly with me? You prefer French to domestic? OK, I'll make it French. Cheers!"

(As indicated by the title of this section of Robbins' book, authors who used 2nd person POV to directly address the readers of their books in the past were often called "Intrusive Authors" by the critics, who claimed that the authors were interrupting their own stories, which they were.)

This POV is even found in commercial fiction (not just literary fiction), as in the paranormal Romance Once a Wolf by Susan Krinard, where both male & female protagonists are werewolves: "The fact was that being a werewolf meant you had the advantage over every other man. It meant you could smell a thousand times more keenly...It meant you could always win, just by using powers you'd been born with but hadn't earned." As is clear from this selection, the "you" being addressed with the 2nd person POV (not in dialogue) is all other werewolves, who may or may not be in the actual story.

2nd person POV, not when used in dialogue between characters in a work, is used to address anyone, in book or out, alive or dead, historical or contemporary, real or imaginary. The person(s) being addressed may be the author's readers, the narrator's readers/listeners, implied characters in story, actual characters in story, humanity in general, real persons outside the novel (politicians or celebrities, for example), literary figures from other works, etc., but there must be a reason for using 2nd person POV and the readers should be able to figure it out or they'll get confused.

Let me emphasize again that using 2nd person POV does not mean using it in dialogue: of course characters will talk to each other in the work and use 2nd person to address each other; this is not the same thing as using 2nd person POV, which is the manner in which a piece of writing is written.

Using 2nd person POV means using it like another POV, like 1st or Outer Limited (also called "fly on the wall") or Unlimited (also called "God POV" since writer tells reader all characters' thoughts, motivations, etc.) All POVs, except Unlimited, are limited, by their nature.

2nd person is difficult to sustain since it interrupts the story if the author is addressing the actual readers of the piece. The author must have a specific audience in mind as the "you" to which the readers can connect or whom they can identify (as when it's someone other than the readers themselves).

2nd person POV calls attention to itself (which is why so many experimental and post-modern writers use it, to parody its earlier use and make readers notice that they're reading a book written by said author) so it's difficult to maintain the illusion of the reality of the story when the author is calling attention to the fact that you're reading a story by using 2nd person POV.

In 1st person POV, the author picks one character, traditionally called the narrator, who uses "I", who reveals everything s/he is thinking, feeling, experiencing, and everything s/he is OBSERVING other characters doing. It is a limited POV since it is just like being in your own head: you don't know what other people are thinking unless they tell you, so as an author, if you're using 1st person correctly, you can't tell readers what other characters are thinking unless they say it aloud to narrator.

First person POV can also be done in the plural, using "we" when the narrators are a specific group that's telling their story.

I'd have to look up more examples of successful 2nd person, since I'm afraid I can't recall them right off the top of my head, but I have an excerpt from my MASTERING POV book which explains the POVs on my website: http://www.rockwaypress.com/Afraid_PO...

The excerpt doesn't list all the books which use POV (some of those are in the book itself), but it does define it and list some of the times it might be appropriate for an author to choose to employ 2nd person POV rather than another.

Let me know if you have any other questions,
Best,
Alexandria

Dear Sophie,
So glad that you did have an understanding of 2nd person POV, however vague, after all.

Once you read some of it, you see that it used to be quite common, but modern readers quit using it, I believe, in order to make author "invisible" and to stop interrupting story to remind the audience that it was reading. A huge advance to the psychological realism of characters in literature.

Of course, as I pointed out, it can be used in such a way that it enhances the story, such as in the paranormal romance noted above, and when addressing implied characters in work whom narrator is addressing.

Have fun trying it out in some of your own work.

Hope you enjoy Naked, with Glasses as a whole, and its titular story, entirely in 2nd person POV.

Alexandria

Dear Alexandria:

Do you think one primary character in 1st POV would work with other main characters in CLOSE 3rd POV? Upon what would success in that depend?

Thank you.

Stowe Spivey

Dear Stowe,
Afraid I have never heard of CLOSE 3rd POV: what does that mean?

There are only 3 POVs written in the grammatical third person:

• Unlimited, formerly called "God POV", where the author tells reader everything s/he has to know, including all thoughts, feelings, motivations, backgrounds, etc of all characters whenever necessary (This is, without a doubt, the easiest POV to use since there are no "limits", hence its name).

• Inner Limited, exactly like 1st person but using grammatical 3rd person, i.e., "limited" to the "inner life" of one character but written in grammatical 3rd person she/he/it/they, rather than in 1st I/we.

James Joyce & Hemingway use Inner Limited almost all the time: the author picks one character and views world from his head but writes in 3rd person rather than in 1st; the author only records what protagonist sees and hears from other characters but none of other characters' thoughts or feelings unless spoken aloud.

The only unspoken thoughts & feelings which are revealed are those of protagonist, just as in 1st person POV (narration), but written in 3rd: "He felt very sad, and he wondered if everyone felt as he did at that moment when they lost something they'd dreamed of." (Here it is again, in 1st person POV: "I felt very sad, and I wondered if everyone felt as I did at that moment when they'd lost something they'd dreamed of").

Inner Limited POV has same limitations as 1st person POV but creates more emotional distance between protagonist (only 1st person POV employs term "narrator" for clarity of usage) and reader than does 1st person POV.

• Outer Limited (Hemingway called this the "fly on the wall POV"): "limited" to the "outer" things in story, only what can be observed, ostensibly objectively. No thoughts, feelings, motivations of ANY characters are revealed. Reader only sees/hears what can be observed/heard.

Without a doubt, Outer Limited is the most difficult POV to successfully maintain for any length of time, but it is just like a movie without any voice-over, so I suspect the reason more authors don't use it is (1) because it's so difficult to maintain successfully as every word can reveal subjectivity and author is supposedly objective and invisible, and (2) because it's difficult to create the emotional connection between readers and characters unless author is extremely skilled at realistic dialogue and convincing character development.

No other POVs are written in the grammatical 3rd person.

In some crime novels, the "good guys" are always presented in Unlimited POV and the "criminal's" thoughts and feelings are revealed in Inner Limited POV (3rd person grammatical masquerading as 1st person POV), apparently for the purposes of allowing readers to maintain emotional distance and objectivity when dealing with criminals' thoughts/feelings toward victims (since 1st person POV might make readers "identify" or empathize with criminal too much, since 1st person POV is the most intimate one).

Because using Unlimited for good guys, and Inner Limited for criminals in crime novels has been considered a separate POV by some critics (who called it "limited omniscience" among other bewildering terms) when used in this manner, i.e., only in crime novels, always with Unlimited POV for good guys, and always with Inner Limited POV for criminals, without variation, I called it "Combo POV" in MASTERING POV to distinguish it from simply using multiple POVs, which is what I would have ordinarily called it had crime novelists not already been being very rigid about its use in these types of books, and had critics not already recognized it as a "separate" type of POV rather than just as a combination of Unlimited (for good guys) and Inner Limited (for bad guys). That's why I called it "Combo POV and defined in these strict terms.

So, unfortunately, I'm afraid I cannot answer your question at this moment since I don't know what the term "CLOSE 3rd POV" means. After reading the above definitions, can you be more specific about what you mean by the term you used?

Can you provide me an example?
Then I could better give you an informed answer.
Best,
Alexandria

What I am trying to achieve is a "closeness" to the protagonist by writing him in Inner Limited 3rd POV, what I previously called CLOSE 3rd. Here's an example:

The window closed and the car moved past. John walked toward his car, feeling the slosh inside his shoes. He left the folded umbrella on the ground. No. Security would have a field day with that. He dropped it off at the tunnel.

"No. Security would have a field day with that." are his thoughts, written with no tag or italics.

Would that be considered Inner Limited 3rd POV? Would every scene with John need to be from this POV?

If you need explanation, let me know.

Many thanks!

Dear Stowe,

Yes, this is Inner Limited POV. The advantages of Inner Limited POV over 1st person POV is that you can move from character to character in Inner Limited, showing each character's inner life, thoughts, feelings, motivations, etc.

In Unlimited POV, you also reveal all characters' thought etc if you wish but you also reveal moral judgment & things characters themselves may not be aware of.

If you use 1st person POV, you stay in the head of one character and use grammatical 1st person: I or we. This is the most intimate POV as readers feel character is speaking to them.

Inner Limited POV is exactly like 1st person POV except written in grammatical 3rd person POV: he, she, it, they.

Advantages of Inner Limited POV over 1st: easier to move from character to character, showing all inner lives without confusion of the I pronoun as narrator. Advantages over Unlimited POV: no moral judgment presented on author's part and inner lives presented so readers become more emotionally connected.

Disadvantages of Inner Limited POV: creates more emotional distance between characters & readers than 1st person POV, very easy to accidentally lapse into Unlimited POV & reveal information character would not know.

For example, "It was going to storm" is Unlimited POV since no one knows when it's going to storm "Stowe looked up at the sky. It looked like it was going to storm. He regretted that he'd forgotten his hat." It is clear that the "It looked like it was going to storm" is Stowe's perspective - his interpretation of the sky - because it is surrounded by other Inner Limited POV lines indicating that, though written in grammatical 3rd person (he, she, it, they), the reader is in Stowe's head. The word "looked" reinforces the fact that it is in Stowe's head (& thus is Inner Limited POV).

Inner Limited POV does bring the readers "closer" to characters by revealing their inner lives but is limited to 1 character at a time - if author is going to use it throughout - and author must make it clear when he's shifting to another character's. PERSPECTIVE while remaining in Inner Limited POV: through chapter breaks, asterisks, extra spacing, etc. so as not to confuse readers.

Look at the opening pages of Billie Sue Mosiman's BANISHED (get a sample): she uses Inner Limited POV successfully (very rarely lapsing into Unlimited POV) and moves from character to character in this POV, changing chapters each time she's moving to another character's perspective while maintaining Inner Limited POV.

It takes hyper-awareness of POVs & mastery of them all to avoid lapsing, even momentarily, from Inner Limited POV to Unlimited POV (even Hemingway occasionally lapsed) especially when switching PERSPECTIVES but it can be successfully done.

Just remember that Inner Limited is a LIMITED POV -all except Unlimited POV are - so author is "limited" in the material & information he presents to readers.

Hope this helps.
And, yes, you can present chosen character's thoughts without quotation marks in Inner Limited POV. As long as you don't lapse from Inner Limited POV & make it clear when you're changing Perspectives or POVs, the reader will know that those are the chosen character's thoughts.

Alexandria

Alexandria:

Thank you very much for your insights and cautions.

Stowe

Stowe,
You are very welcome.
I look forward to reading your novels.
Alexandria