Slightly risque speculation about Alverstoke > Likes and Comments

Is he likely to have his hands slapped before the wedding?

Judith slapped Worth. Isabella stabbed Montagu. Mary shot Vidal. Had Venetia Lufra or Bouncer with her ...

Would Frederica have to push back on Alverstoke?

Generally, it is implied that (except for waiting for Elinor's "mourning" to be over) that the wedding would occur quite shortly after the end of the books. In most of the books it is also implied that the hero does not indulge in extra "dalliances" between the first serious encounter with the heroine, up to the proposal. Then, some like Freddy, Gilly, and Ned take advantage of closed carriages. Frederica and Vernon are found cuddling behind closed doors by Felix after Buddle admonishes him to leave them alone.

However, with Frederica and Alverstoke there are three passages where they discuss his "alleged adventures". Would this, together with his sense of mischief ( "particularly not to his sisters" ) lead to his (outside the usual GH narratives) "pushing the envelop" just enough the prompt a push back from Frederica?

[Though the characterizations of Charles/Sophy, Serena/Ivor allow for speculation about them "jumping the gun", that's outside GH's narrative.]

I think in Lady of Quality Oliver visits a brothel? So a little risqué !!

I don't think so: despite having been in charge of her siblings, she is young/innocent and Alverstoke knows that. He'll "be a gentleman" and they will wed immediately and everyone will live happily ever after.

Probably, if he makes it that far without her brothers interrupting LOL! I think he will be overcome with emotion but I think he can control himself until Frederica realizes her own feelings.

As for Sophy, I think Sophy will be the one needing her hands slapped and not Charles LOL!

QNPoohBear wrote: "Probably, if he makes it that far without her brothers interrupting LOL! I think he will be overcome with emotion but I think he can control himself until Frederica realizes her own feelings.

As for Sophy, I think Sophy will be the one needing her hands slapped and not Charles LOL!"

;-) ;-)

No, I think respect for a 'virtuous female' was so engrained that any man engaged to one would understand that he had to wait for the wedding night. It would be insulting to her to imply that she was the kind of woman a man could take liberties with.

Mind you, I'm not so sure about Venetia and Damerel ...

Frederica may not be the "farmer's daughter", but as a country girl she's not innocent. She deals with a "country dog", familiar with the antics of country dogs. She is under no illusion about eggs coming from the supermarket in cartons. Also, as someone who has " for years ruled a large household " (likely including young people of both sexes ... ) she would be aware of possible "complications".

Alverstoke is shown to have a sense of mischief. He doesn't just say that it's his dog, regardless of the breed. He expands by bringing in Baluchistan and smuggling. He makes loaded remarks to Frederica who dives right in, instead of taking an innocent interpretation.
From the text -
- " ... more than seven, you know. You wouldn't ... "
- "oh yes, but that's not --- "
- " ... taken for a high flyer ... dressy bits .. "
- "Mrs Parracombe talked of Graynard. ... shocked by things you don't scruple ..."

She understands the mores and navigates the social issues and implications -
- compares with Miss Berry about being chaperoned
- dismisses being compromised at the farm
- " ... should have been a widow ... "
- " ... obliged to care, for my sister ... "

Alverstoke could easily be as much a "nobleman" as Vidal could. But staying in the drawing room and with the text, he clearly had his arm around her, presumably with kissing involved. It's a small step to suppose his hands wandering a bit, her putting up with it for a little and then reminding him (sharply) that it is STILL a few days before the wedding (and him pointing out that's it JUST a few days before the wedding) .... They could do a special licence quick but banns would take a couple weeks.

[Vernon does embrace and kiss her without the EXPLICIT prior consent called for by recently devised codes of conduct, as does Kit with Cressy.]
[Consider Miss Skiffins repeatedly removing Wemmick's arm from around her. ...]
[Claudio is admonished that he could not complain about Hero not being a virgin if
HE had jumped the gun a few nights before the wedding.]
[Ever since moving pictures, so many depictions of women reaching behind while dancing to move a man's hand back up to her waist ... ]

Anne wrote: "I think in Lady of Quality Oliver visits a brothel? So a little risqué !!"

Are you thinking of Miles in Black Sheep? He does visit one, but only to arrange for the hire of 'Mrs Clapham'!

Yes Jenny that’s correct, thanks for putting me right. But if memory serves me correctly he does stay and partake of what’s on offer. That’s how I understood it anyway.

Anne wrote: "Yes Jenny that’s correct, thanks for putting me right. But if memory serves me correctly he does stay and partake of what’s on offer. That’s how I understood it anyway."

That's not my take on that scene. I suspect you may have been misled by Miles saying something on the order of, "That's what I want--a young lady of refinement." But obviously he would be giving away the plot to the reader if he continued the sentence, "...to bait my invidious nephew with" on page! Hence Heyer ending the scene before he and Dolly got to that portion of the conversation.

yes, exactly, Margaret, what he wants a young lady for is not revealed until later. And invidious is a great word for Stacy, who is a serious stinker.

I totally disagree with Anne’s comment about Miles partaking in what’s on offer.

It doesn’t fit with the plot, Miles’ character, or his growing love for Abby.

But perhaps more importantly, there is no way that GH would include such an action - it’s simply not her style and would really lower the tone of her books (in her opinion. )

Jackie wrote: "yes, exactly, Margaret, what he wants a young lady for is not revealed until later..."

But we're obviously meant to think the worst! To begin with at least ...

I must admit to being disappointed that Miles would frequent the brothel given he was falling in love with Abby but I have always read that scene believing that he did. I’m very amused by my misunderstanding of that scene - it is hilarious!!

Margaret wrote: "Anne wrote: "Yes Jenny that’s correct, thanks for putting me right. But if memory serves me correctly he does stay and partake of what’s on offer. That’s how I understood it anyway."

That's not my..."

Agreed. Miles only wants to hire an actress, not a one-night-stand.

Jackie wrote: "yes, exactly, Margaret, what he wants a young lady for is not revealed until later. And invidious is a great word for Stacy, who is a serious stinker."

Stacy IS awful. It's hard to believe that he is actually older than Abby, as she is written as mature and he is written as trying to be boyish. But GH commonly writes her young men as boyish and young women as women. Think of Jessamy in "Frederica", very young at 16, compared to Endymion's sister Chloe, only one year older who is considered almost ready for marriage.

Sandi wrote: "But GH commonly writes her young men as boyish and young women as women. Think of Jessamy in "Frederica", very young at 16, compared to Endymion's sister Chloe, only one year older who is considered almost ready for marriage. ..."

And Hubert Rivenhall, who is actually older than Sophy!
But surely this is based on fact? I certainly remember from my own teenage years how much younger than me a boy of my own age was. But they had mostly caught up by the time we were 20!

Jenny wrote: "But they had mostly caught up by the time we were 20!"

mostly - but there are some who haven't caught up by the time they are 60. ;-)

Jenny wrote: "Sandi wrote: "But GH commonly writes her young men as boyish and young women as women.

Yes, but I think GH wrote the young women as "mature" so that she could involve them in romance. We've been commenting on that recently. The wide age gap between the women and the men they marry, for instance.
Perhaps she wrote the young men as so very boyish so that she can have the fun of writing them being silly. Think of Nicky Carlyon's antics in Reluctant Widow.
I think the only "boy" who isn't boyish is Aubrey Lanyon in Venetia, and GH notes that his diseased hip is to blame for his maturity.

Sandi, I agree Nicky is written that way for the fun - I enjoy him and his antics! - but he has more freedom than girls of the same age - he had a "lark" and nobody thinks it's too serious. Whatever a girl does for fun could be damaging her reputation and there's nothing funny about that! The most high-spirited young female is not allowed any antics.

Aubrey Lanyon is advanced intellectually, of course, and prematurely aged from long term pain, but I wouldn't use the word mature just because he is serious and not at all boyish. Luckily, he now has Jasper as a role model.

Jackie wrote: "Sandi, I agree Nicky is written that way for the fun ... but he has more freedom than girls of the same age - he had a "lark" and nobody thinks it's too serious. ..."

Not excluding homicide! Whereas for a girl it's social disaster to drive down St James' St, or to dance a waltz without prior approval!

Luckily, he now has Jasper as a role model.

Which is really ironic, considering Jasper's reputation!

There is a bit of a range in GH young (or youngish) men.
The ones at 25 and above are generally shown as relatively
mature.

Other than being smitten, Julian and Adrian behave reasonably.
Hildebrand is also smittened and misled, but he is otherwise reasonable, if tending toward the unworldliness of the Poet Augustus ...
Tom and Ninian support their friends, if not entirely prudently.
Courteney's cohort (not very many cohorts described by GH) mostly
seem to act in the range of college juniors/seniors.

Duke Gilly, Colonialist Oliver, Diplomat Kit, and Private Secretary Charles are older and capable.

Gil got himself into silly company, but he counts as the responsible one in the quartet, though maybe he is older.

Returning after the long weekend to Alverstoke and Frederica with a couple more observations. In addition to the conversations referring to his adventures, they have a mutual understanding that a man focused soley on what is shown of a woman within a displayed picture frame, might NOT be SERIOUSLY interested in her.

Also, unlike most of the GH curtain closing kisses, their kiss is not AFTER a mutual recognition of their relationship. Its physicality triggers her moving him out of the "friend zone", though the earlier kiss of her hand might have given her a hint. She might well stop slapping his hands as the wedding day nears ...

If you want to know what happened, see my new book 'Frederica and Alver'.

Janet wrote: "If you want to know what happened, see my new book 'Frederica and Alver'."

No thanks. I'll stick with what Miss Heyer wrote.

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Janet wrote: "If you want to know what happened, see my new book 'Frederica and Alver'."

No thanks. I'll stick with what Miss Heyer wrote."

I agree with you, Susan, but maybe I would have said it a little bit ... softer? Janet may be an excellent writer, and her story may be wonderful. My refusal to look into any kind of "fanfic" is not a judgment on its authors, it's just my way of dealing with (original) works of fiction.