Sasha’s review of The Pilgrim's Progress > Likes and Comments
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Dang - I almost want to read this book now.
Not the response I was aiming for, Lauren!
I sorta suspected this wasn't very good when Marmee, the killjoy, kept having the girls read it in Little Women.
Yeah totally. I liked Little Women, but there's no doubt they were being raised as prigs.
I mean, the protagonist is Christian, whereas Milton is famous for having a surprisingly relatable [anti]hero in Satan. .. a bit too complex for some Christians I know. In fact some people I have known would probably call Paradise Lost 'satanic' without having read it lol
I think that's a great point, Vrixton, yeah. I think Milton made Satan properly tempting, as Satan is supposed to be, but that's been confusing for plenty of people who weren't sure what he was up to.
If Satan doesn't seduce, he's no Satan - but it's a lot easier to face an obvious demon, like Bunyan's Apollyon. At least then you know to raise your shield.
I may have a bias to defend Pilgrim's Progress, though; the animated movie was one of my favorites as a young baptist lol my how times have changed
Gosh, I really enjoyed this irreverent review, but I'm surprised it hasn't generated more comments (outraged, as well as enthusiastic).
I feel like rereading it now! It's been such a long time that I only recall All Those Personifications Popping Up Out of Nowhere At All Times.
Hard to compare it to Milton, for obvious reasons. Milton's Christianity was not orthodox in his day and it has not become any popular either so it figures that as a religious text it should not have a lot of traction. It remains a wonder for diehard literature lovers, and to this day is the single book that has had the greatest impact in my life, but its theology is too personal to resonate with most believers, I think.
Pilgrim's, on the other hand, feels extremely old fashioned. I recall it read quite well but felt much more as a Medieval text than anything else.
That's a good perspective, Nocturnalux! Thanks, that helps my thinking about them.
And I thought Noarch not a tough writer was dull. No clue the book so eluded to and prizes was so prim. Since when is life so black and white? I could see this for kids, Aas a less confusing intro to the Bible. But oy gevalt.
ugh I had to read the excerpt "Christian in the Slough of Despond" in 7th grade Independent Baptist Christian School. We learned about Allegory, but what they failed to mention, something I learned from The Faerie Queene, is that for an allegory to be good, it must work on both narrative levels; Christian's story on face value doesn't work, it only makes sense when you're thinking about it allegorically. Spenser's story of Sir Redcrosse works on both: he's a great example of escaping Falsehood and finding Holinesse to finally slay the Dragon, and also portrays how Protestants are Better than lying Papists and Saracens lol (sadly it's a bit racist and weird in parts as a result).
Vrixton wrote: "or an allegory to be good, it must work on both narrative levels; Christian's story on face value doesn't work, it only makes sense when you're thinking about it allegorically."
Belatedly: awesome point! I love that. Hadn't thought about it in that way. Thank you!
Also haven't read Faerie Queene...one of these days I suppose I ought to.
Alex wrote: "Also haven't read Faerie Queene...one of these days I suppose I ought to.."
Yes! I really liked FQ (and yes, Spenser does get rather racist, his hatred for the Irish is particularly disturbing even if I don't think it factors in FQ), it does use allegory much better than Pilgrim's. It's shame it is incomplete.
Pligrim's reads more as a morality play more than anything else only repackaged a bit in a format that does not necessarily do it any favors.
It is ironic but the one bit from Pilgrim's Progress that I remember best is the Slough of Despond, arguably the exact opposite of any 'progress'.
People probably don't leave outraged reviews on this rating because they don't have time for this ignorance. I myself don't even know where to start so I'm just leaving it at that.
Loved your review! I think, even as heavy-handed as the allegory is, so many people don’t get past the 10 pages of shit poetry to get to the story. The ones who did that would be outraged by your very funny and on-point review perhaps have not heard of GoodReads or maybe even The Internet.
Except Monica! Monica found it and she is Not Amused!
Thanks for the kind words; I loved your review too!
My mother says she read this at 9 or 10 and reveled in it. (In other news, my mother was as weird as a child in her own way as I was.)
Monica wrote: "People probably don't leave outraged reviews on this rating because they don't have time for this ignorance. I myself don't even know where to start so I'm just leaving it at that."
That's really too bad, if you have some insight into PP, I, for one, would be very interested in knowing more about it. But I guess you don't have the time to teach us poor ignorant folk so we shall dwell in our very own Slough of Despond.
On the plus side, though, that's an amazing band name.
Very true but if it were to live up to its name, it'd never get to release any songs! Too bogged down in the Despond!
Oh come on, if Joy Division managed to release two albums...
maybe that's not the best comparison.
I read it in high school; it was assigned because we were reading so many other books which referenced it.
When you read it so literally it becomes the funniest book ever written.
It won’t be funny for people like you in the end. Repent like Christian or suffer.
Man, I hate this species of religious people, these bullies. "Repent or suffer!" That's it, that's your God, some dude who's going to torture anyone who doesn't believe in him for eternity? It's so gross, that you've built your worldview on horror. It's repellent. You've made God into a boogeyman. You're wrong and you're creepy.
Loved this review more than I liked reading the book!
Ha, thanks Mike. And hey, at least you're also reading James Baldwin, so you're having some fun.
Well you have a problem with Christianity. You need help.
Thanks for the tip Mary! ps there is no god
Alex. There is a God. Just because you deny nor believe this does not mean that God does not exist.
I hope you find Him.
my goodness, we seem to have a difference of opinion. Weird!
How do we know that Alex is not God, huh? We don't, now do we!
You have the same point of view as Obstinate. Why did you choose to read an allegory so literally? Especially about a belief system that you deny?
Well, I mean, I wouldn’t say I deny it exactly. I’m aware that your God isn’t real, but that has very little to do with me. :)
Don't know about Alex, but I didn't 'choose' to read this; it was assigned reading in high school. (Because we were reading so many other books that referenced it.)
Brittany wrote: "You have the same point of view as Obstinate. Why did you choose to read an allegory so literally? Especially about a belief system that you deny?"
I cannot also speak for Alex but when it comes to reading the allegory 'so literally', the text itself does that. Pilgrim's entire plot revolves precisely around literal incarnations of virtues and sins and their interaction with the reader's self-insert main character per excellence, namely, Christian.
The protagonist's name alone should give you a hint as to what kind of approach the text proposes to its readers. This is first and foremost a moral treaty and its lessons are, as such, very much on the nose and leave little room for interpretation.
If you delve into Pilgrim's literary ancestry you'll find morality plays in which Truth and Love are precisely that even as they are characters.
It is interesting that you bring ideology into this, Pilgrim's is indeed concerned first and foremost with promoting a certain view of Christianity (I'd argue it feels outdated even for the time). Other contemporary works, even when deeply steeped in Christian ideals and imagery, have a much wider aesthetic scope and can be read by a much vaster readership. Paradise Lost immediately comes to mind.
You don't have to be a Christian to enjoy PL, you probably need a heavy dose of Christianity (or of a particular strand of it) to appreciate PP.
I think she's probably talking about my questioning why someone would name their kid Ignorance. I thought it was a funny joke but if there's one thing I learned from Pilgrim's Progress, it's that a lot of God nuts have shitty senses of humor.
Heh, you know how it is, how are you supposed to know who the bad guys are if they are not named accordingly? The world would be chaos and madness otherwise, madness I tell you!
Fun fact, this one just got recently made into a cartoon movie and it was about as literal as it gets. I'd love to see the Slough of Despond animated, to be honest.
Even better, I'd love John Bunyan to see the movie. My bet is he'd lose his mind at the moving pictures and destroy the television.
By the way, Brittany, if you liked this one then you will lose The Vision and Creed of Piers Ploughman.
Oh, and Noct, yeah, let's not miss an opportunity to yell about how great Paradise Lost is. There's a complicated and beautiful religious work. Pilgrim's is, as you say, dumb by any generation's standards.
I find it a bit odd that Pilgrim's is so popular with Christians, to be honest. The author seems to think that its readers (and hearers, I think this one was meant to be mostly read out loud when it was first conceived) aren't terribly smart. Every single point is belabored to the point of stupefying dullness.
Christian is meant to be an 'everyman' character but he comes across as too dim to live. Time and time again he falls for the same traps. I understand the idea that Christians will fall prey to sin along their way to heaven but it becomes unintentionally absurd.
I'm surprised Fraud did not sell him a bridge or something.
Paradise Lost is a whole different beast indeed!
If you can’t use respectable language, please do not comment. “The book made no sense to me” would have been adequate.
Marlene wrote: "If you can’t use respectable language, please do not comment. “The book made no sense to me” would have been adequate."
Okay, let's take the bait:
I find that that this book is an insult to a thinking person's intelligence.
Off into the Slough on Despond with thee!
I love your review. Did you read Christiana's part? I think that it is equally if not more ridiculous. I am trying my best to slog through it, but here is a gem. The irony is palpable.
Mercy. No, no: let them hang, and their names rot, and their crimes live for ever against them. I think it a high favor that they were hanged afore we came hither who knows, else, what they might have done to such poor women as we are?
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Lauren
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Jan 21, 2015 07:44AM
Dang - I almost want to read this book now.
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Not the response I was aiming for, Lauren!
I sorta suspected this wasn't very good when Marmee, the killjoy, kept having the girls read it in Little Women.
Yeah totally. I liked Little Women, but there's no doubt they were being raised as prigs.
I mean, the protagonist is Christian, whereas Milton is famous for having a surprisingly relatable [anti]hero in Satan. .. a bit too complex for some Christians I know. In fact some people I have known would probably call Paradise Lost 'satanic' without having read it lol
I think that's a great point, Vrixton, yeah. I think Milton made Satan properly tempting, as Satan is supposed to be, but that's been confusing for plenty of people who weren't sure what he was up to.If Satan doesn't seduce, he's no Satan - but it's a lot easier to face an obvious demon, like Bunyan's Apollyon. At least then you know to raise your shield.
I may have a bias to defend Pilgrim's Progress, though; the animated movie was one of my favorites as a young baptist lol my how times have changed
Gosh, I really enjoyed this irreverent review, but I'm surprised it hasn't generated more comments (outraged, as well as enthusiastic).
I feel like rereading it now! It's been such a long time that I only recall All Those Personifications Popping Up Out of Nowhere At All Times. Hard to compare it to Milton, for obvious reasons. Milton's Christianity was not orthodox in his day and it has not become any popular either so it figures that as a religious text it should not have a lot of traction. It remains a wonder for diehard literature lovers, and to this day is the single book that has had the greatest impact in my life, but its theology is too personal to resonate with most believers, I think.
Pilgrim's, on the other hand, feels extremely old fashioned. I recall it read quite well but felt much more as a Medieval text than anything else.
That's a good perspective, Nocturnalux! Thanks, that helps my thinking about them.
And I thought Noarch not a tough writer was dull. No clue the book so eluded to and prizes was so prim. Since when is life so black and white? I could see this for kids, Aas a less confusing intro to the Bible. But oy gevalt.
ugh I had to read the excerpt "Christian in the Slough of Despond" in 7th grade Independent Baptist Christian School. We learned about Allegory, but what they failed to mention, something I learned from The Faerie Queene, is that for an allegory to be good, it must work on both narrative levels; Christian's story on face value doesn't work, it only makes sense when you're thinking about it allegorically. Spenser's story of Sir Redcrosse works on both: he's a great example of escaping Falsehood and finding Holinesse to finally slay the Dragon, and also portrays how Protestants are Better than lying Papists and Saracens lol (sadly it's a bit racist and weird in parts as a result).
Vrixton wrote: "or an allegory to be good, it must work on both narrative levels; Christian's story on face value doesn't work, it only makes sense when you're thinking about it allegorically."Belatedly: awesome point! I love that. Hadn't thought about it in that way. Thank you!
Also haven't read Faerie Queene...one of these days I suppose I ought to.
Alex wrote: "Also haven't read Faerie Queene...one of these days I suppose I ought to.."Yes! I really liked FQ (and yes, Spenser does get rather racist, his hatred for the Irish is particularly disturbing even if I don't think it factors in FQ), it does use allegory much better than Pilgrim's. It's shame it is incomplete.
Pligrim's reads more as a morality play more than anything else only repackaged a bit in a format that does not necessarily do it any favors.
It is ironic but the one bit from Pilgrim's Progress that I remember best is the Slough of Despond, arguably the exact opposite of any 'progress'.
People probably don't leave outraged reviews on this rating because they don't have time for this ignorance. I myself don't even know where to start so I'm just leaving it at that.
Loved your review! I think, even as heavy-handed as the allegory is, so many people don’t get past the 10 pages of shit poetry to get to the story. The ones who did that would be outraged by your very funny and on-point review perhaps have not heard of GoodReads or maybe even The Internet.
Except Monica! Monica found it and she is Not Amused!Thanks for the kind words; I loved your review too!
My mother says she read this at 9 or 10 and reveled in it. (In other news, my mother was as weird as a child in her own way as I was.)
Monica wrote: "People probably don't leave outraged reviews on this rating because they don't have time for this ignorance. I myself don't even know where to start so I'm just leaving it at that."That's really too bad, if you have some insight into PP, I, for one, would be very interested in knowing more about it. But I guess you don't have the time to teach us poor ignorant folk so we shall dwell in our very own Slough of Despond.
On the plus side, though, that's an amazing band name.
Very true but if it were to live up to its name, it'd never get to release any songs! Too bogged down in the Despond!
Oh come on, if Joy Division managed to release two albums...maybe that's not the best comparison.
I read it in high school; it was assigned because we were reading so many other books which referenced it.
When you read it so literally it becomes the funniest book ever written.
It won’t be funny for people like you in the end. Repent like Christian or suffer.
Man, I hate this species of religious people, these bullies. "Repent or suffer!" That's it, that's your God, some dude who's going to torture anyone who doesn't believe in him for eternity? It's so gross, that you've built your worldview on horror. It's repellent. You've made God into a boogeyman. You're wrong and you're creepy.
Loved this review more than I liked reading the book!
Ha, thanks Mike. And hey, at least you're also reading James Baldwin, so you're having some fun.
Well you have a problem with Christianity. You need help.
Thanks for the tip Mary! ps there is no god
Alex. There is a God. Just because you deny nor believe this does not mean that God does not exist. I hope you find Him.
my goodness, we seem to have a difference of opinion. Weird!
How do we know that Alex is not God, huh? We don't, now do we!
You have the same point of view as Obstinate. Why did you choose to read an allegory so literally? Especially about a belief system that you deny?
Well, I mean, I wouldn’t say I deny it exactly. I’m aware that your God isn’t real, but that has very little to do with me. :)
Don't know about Alex, but I didn't 'choose' to read this; it was assigned reading in high school. (Because we were reading so many other books that referenced it.)
Brittany wrote: "You have the same point of view as Obstinate. Why did you choose to read an allegory so literally? Especially about a belief system that you deny?"I cannot also speak for Alex but when it comes to reading the allegory 'so literally', the text itself does that. Pilgrim's entire plot revolves precisely around literal incarnations of virtues and sins and their interaction with the reader's self-insert main character per excellence, namely, Christian.
The protagonist's name alone should give you a hint as to what kind of approach the text proposes to its readers. This is first and foremost a moral treaty and its lessons are, as such, very much on the nose and leave little room for interpretation.
If you delve into Pilgrim's literary ancestry you'll find morality plays in which Truth and Love are precisely that even as they are characters.
It is interesting that you bring ideology into this, Pilgrim's is indeed concerned first and foremost with promoting a certain view of Christianity (I'd argue it feels outdated even for the time). Other contemporary works, even when deeply steeped in Christian ideals and imagery, have a much wider aesthetic scope and can be read by a much vaster readership. Paradise Lost immediately comes to mind.
You don't have to be a Christian to enjoy PL, you probably need a heavy dose of Christianity (or of a particular strand of it) to appreciate PP.
I think she's probably talking about my questioning why someone would name their kid Ignorance. I thought it was a funny joke but if there's one thing I learned from Pilgrim's Progress, it's that a lot of God nuts have shitty senses of humor.
Heh, you know how it is, how are you supposed to know who the bad guys are if they are not named accordingly? The world would be chaos and madness otherwise, madness I tell you! Fun fact, this one just got recently made into a cartoon movie and it was about as literal as it gets. I'd love to see the Slough of Despond animated, to be honest.
Even better, I'd love John Bunyan to see the movie. My bet is he'd lose his mind at the moving pictures and destroy the television.
By the way, Brittany, if you liked this one then you will lose The Vision and Creed of Piers Ploughman.
Oh, and Noct, yeah, let's not miss an opportunity to yell about how great Paradise Lost is. There's a complicated and beautiful religious work. Pilgrim's is, as you say, dumb by any generation's standards.
I find it a bit odd that Pilgrim's is so popular with Christians, to be honest. The author seems to think that its readers (and hearers, I think this one was meant to be mostly read out loud when it was first conceived) aren't terribly smart. Every single point is belabored to the point of stupefying dullness. Christian is meant to be an 'everyman' character but he comes across as too dim to live. Time and time again he falls for the same traps. I understand the idea that Christians will fall prey to sin along their way to heaven but it becomes unintentionally absurd.
I'm surprised Fraud did not sell him a bridge or something.
Paradise Lost is a whole different beast indeed!
If you can’t use respectable language, please do not comment. “The book made no sense to me” would have been adequate.
Marlene wrote: "If you can’t use respectable language, please do not comment. “The book made no sense to me” would have been adequate."Okay, let's take the bait:
I find that that this book is an insult to a thinking person's intelligence.
Off into the Slough on Despond with thee!
I love your review. Did you read Christiana's part? I think that it is equally if not more ridiculous. I am trying my best to slog through it, but here is a gem. The irony is palpable.Mercy. No, no: let them hang, and their names rot, and their crimes live for ever against them. I think it a high favor that they were hanged afore we came hither who knows, else, what they might have done to such poor women as we are?
