Let’s Chat 2 > Likes and Comments

Here we are in Let’s Chat Part Deux! After 16,834 posts some members were finding it glitchy. So here we are, fresh and ready to go!

NEVER STOP CHATTING

Killers Anonymous, this could be fun.
https://youtu.be/zPMzOshvqw8

Maleficent 2! https://youtu.be/_w_47Jm6XOA

I went out to see Avengers: Endgame this past weekend, in part because it was becoming increasingly difficult to avoid spoilery talk in the entertainment media. I’ve only been a so-so fan of the MCU films and, perhaps reflecting that bias, walked away from the experience thinking this most recent entry was a so-so viewing experience. (view spoiler)[I thought Endgame was strongest during its quieter moments, notably the first 20 or 30 minutes and the last 15 (i.e., after Thanos is dispatched). There’s an especially lengthy middle section involving time travel in order to recover the infinity stones that I found by turns tedious and baffling. And there followed the obligatory 30-minute nonstop huge battle sequence. I don’t want to sound too negative, however. The scriptwriters and Russo brothers did a good job leavening the film with the franchise’s trademark witty banter and with the employment of clever callbacks to many of the previous MCU films. I think everyone and his or her dog was aware in advance that Endgame represented an endpoint for both Chris Evans and Robert Downey Jr., so it wasn’t a surprise to see their characters bite the dust. I thought both performers did well in their closing moments, particularly Downey. I must admit, I was surprised by what appears to be Black Widow’s departure (although I understand she has a prequel film slated for release). Her death scene was faintly ridiculous, and I found myself mildly piqued that one of the more interesting of the original Avengers was dispatched in favor one I’ve always found to be pretty bland. (hide spoiler)]

✭✭✭½

I’m caught up now with Season 8 of Game of Thrones, having watched Episodes 3, 4, and 5 on Sunday. Just one more to go. I found interesting the on-line fan backlash to script decisions made by Benioff and Weiss, particularly those unveiled in the most recent episode, “The Bells”. (view spoiler)[I’m on record as believing that the faster pacing we’ve seen in more recent seasons has hurt the show, particularly in the way character development is handled. On the other hand, I’m not very sympathetic to those fans who claim that Dany’s latest actions represented some sort of 180-degree turn in her character arc. The show writers laid ample groundwork showing both her ruthless impulses and her desire for power stretching all the way back to Season 1. On the other (third) hand, do I think her turning point in “The Bells” could have been handled better? Yeah, probably. (hide spoiler)]

I spent a fair amount of time in New York this past month, affording me the opportunity to see a number of Broadway shows.

All My Sons , Arthur Miller
A revival of Miller’s 1947 play in which the American Dream is juxtaposed with concerns about social and moral responsibility. It was Miller’s first hit. This revival features a strong performance by Annette Bening.
✭✭✭

The Ferryman , Jez Butterworth
Set during The Troubles, the play tells the story of the family of a former IRA activist, living in their farmhouse in rural County Armagh, Northern Ireland in 1981. It’s a trifle clichéd and long (at around 3 hours), but pretty compelling stuff. Oddsmakers currently are picking it to win in the best play category.
✭✭✭✭½

Kiss Me, Kate , Cole Porter
Kiss Me, Kate (1948) was Porter’s response to the Rodgers and Hammerstein’s ground-breaking Oklahoma! , one the first musicals to more tightly integrate story and song. Ironically, Oklahoma is the other big musical revival this season. Kate involves one of those show-within-a-show tropes that showbiz folks seem to particularly enjoy. This revival (with Will Chase and Kelli O’Hara as the leads) features some nice choreography, particularly during the “Too Darn Hot” Number.
✭✭✭✭

The Prom , Chad Beguelin & Matthew Sklar
This is a musical comedy about four C-List Broadway actors who seek to revive their flagging careers by supporting a politically correct cause in a fictitious conservative Indiana town. It’s charming and amusing, but it’s up against a crowded field in the new musical category this season; Hadestown is the predicted winner in, although I’d like to see Beth Leavel from The Prom win in the best actress in a musical category.
✭✭✭✭½

Hillary and Clinton , Lucas Hnath
Ostensibly about Hillary’s run for the presidency in 2008, Hnath’s play is more an odd family psychodrama with minimal cast and set. The play is directed by Joe Mantello and stars Laurie Metcalf as Hillary Clinton and John Lithgow as Bill Clinton.
✭✭✭½

Ink , James Graham
Graham’s play is indirectly about the devolution of journalistic ethics in the last part of the 20th century as it recounts the purchase of The Sun by Rupert Murdoch, who, along with editor Larry Lamb, transformed it into a tabloid monstrosity that for a time enjoyed the largest circulation of any daily newspaper in the United Kingdom. Depressing, but well acted with a great set design. The cast includes Bertie Carvel as Murdoch.
✭✭✭½

That’s a lot of theater time for vacation! Still, John Lithgow is one of the greats, I can’t think of any other actor than can be the bad guy (Cliffhanger) as convincingly as the good guy (Harry and the Hendersons).

Corinne asked:

WOW that looks like a widely successful Broadway experience. That is amazing.

I've only ever done day trips. (I live about 3 hours away) Did you sleep in NYC also? For a month?

I’m usually in NYC two or maybe three times a year. This time it was for a week, so we saw a show nearly every night (along with a couple of matinees).

Lena said, in part:

John Lithgow is one of the greats, I can’t think of any other actor than can be the bad guy (Cliffhanger) as convincingly as the good guy (Harry and the Hendersons).

Lithgow was positively chilling as the bad guy in Season 4 of Dexter. It may have been the best season of that Showtime series.

Still, I think Hillary and Clinton was really Metcalf’s show. I’ve seen her on stage in a couple of other things and she is very good.

Oh that’s right. Yes, I think that was the best season of Dexter.

Corinne said (in part):

GOT I'm caught up also.

(view spoiler)[Just to reiterate what I said previously, I can sorta see both sides in this dispute: While I firmly believe that groundwork was laid for Dany’s behavior in this episode, I think the show’s quicker pacing these last few seasons has impacted the writing, such that character arcs that earlier in the show’s history would have played out over the better part of a season are now compressed into a couple of episodes or even one. I also find it interesting that, whereas for the most part on-line debate is framed in terms of whether or not the writers did a good enough job preparing the viewers for the emergence of “mad” Dany, a minority of critics have argued that regardless of whether or not her actions were spontaneous, they need not be characterized as “mad”. Aaron Bady, writing for the Los Angeles Review of Books, exemplifies this Realpolitik viewpoint:

[E]very scene leading up to the battle shows us a Daenerys who is a step ahead of everyone else; in her seething vengeful fury, there is complete clarity: she knows what she’s going to do, she blames others for making it her only option, and she’s angry at everyone for what she’s about to do [...] If Daenerys wants the Iron Throne—and she does want it, it’s the only thing she wants and has always wanted, her entire character is built on wanting that one thing to the exclusion of all else—then she can’t let herself be a Ned Stark, having it both ways and dying in the middle ground.

Similarly, Robert Farley, a military analyst writing for Slate, notes:

Political considerations necessarily infuse strategic calculations. For Queen Daenerys Targaryen, seizure of King’s Landing and the deposition of the usurper Cersei no longer cuts it. Aegon Targaryen (Jon Snow) has a better claim to the throne; he has a base of operations, a narrative of legitimacy, and his own army. Even if Jon doesn’t want to be King, people who dislike Daenerys will fight in his name. Dany is no longer the presumptive Targaryen heir and can no longer rely on her family’s right to the throne.

She can rely on Drogon, however. Her claim to the throne rests on demonstrating the power of her dragon. With Rhaegal—the dragon Jon had ridden—dead, she is uniquely capable of making such a claim. Daenerys need not be “mad” in order to see political value in burning King’s Landing to the ground.

We can be (rightfully) horrified at the moral lapses that such a strategy encapsulates, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is unsound in a political or military sense (at least in the short term). (hide spoiler)]

I will grant that the show's pace having been drastically accelerated, and the anticimax that was the battle for the dawn have left fans feeling cheated. However, (view spoiler)[why is everyone surprised by Dany burning people to death when she does it all of the time? Seriously, even Joffrey had the decency to decapitate Ned Stark, but the "Mother of Dragons" prefers horrible screaming pain and the smell of BBQ. (hide spoiler)]

All caught up with game of thrones I must say I'm happy and also disappointed with the final season.

Ah GoT

(view spoiler)[I'm firmly in the camp that the biggest flaw we're currently facing is the pacing due the shortened seasons. This is ESPECIALLY maddening, because apparently GRRM had said the show needed at least ten seasons to really do it justice, and HBO was more than willing to do it, but the show runners went "Nah, we're done here" and in essence ruined it all.

It's 100% a plotter vs pantsing issue though. In the beginning of the series they were able to plot their way around courses already laid out by the pantsing done by GRRM, and so it felt as though it was being done that way even if it wasn't. Now with the shortened timeline, they have no choice but to fly by the plot points, and characterization has suffered to such a degree it almost feels like a different show at times with how it's all being handled.

And then there's Dany. Ok, sure, she's mad. Either fully mad, or going mad, or hit her mad breaking point. I get it. It's been hinted at, one could say it was an eventuality. But because of the accelerated seasons, it just doesn't feel organic enough to be justified. Yes she has a vicious streak, yes she burns people her go against her, but that is a far cry from the slaughter of innocents we saw in the last episode. I personally just feel like there should have been a bit more shown to drive her to that breaking point, and a bit more shown of her showing more callous disregard for innocent life before going full on killer queen.

I've heard a rumour that says GRRM has actually completed the books, but agreed to hold off on publishing until the series was completed. While I don't believe it at all, at this point I really kind of hope its true so we can finally start diving into the rest of the story as it should really be told. (hide spoiler)]

Corinne wrote: "Great post. I agree with all you said.

Here is something regarding your last paragraph:

His recent blog "... no, THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING are not finished. DREAM is not even beg..."

Yeah, I knew it had to be all lies, I was just holding out the last shred of hope. I've pretty much abandoned hope of the series ever actually getting finished at this point.

Bat Girl coming at you! https://youtu.be/6s1Gld-LHew

Hermit Crab deals with human waste in a practical and terrifying way.
https://youtu.be/fbCfhY6trKI

Grumpy Cat died! 🙁😩🥺😢
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Culture/in...

Something for the GoT fans:

https://youtu.be/CpTZ-tC81yA

(Spoiler for S08 E03)

Herman Wouk died on Friday, 17 May, at the age of 103. I can easily imagine that younger readers might not be familiar with Wouk, but I fondly recall reading a number of his books in my late teens and 20s. Looking forward in time, I suspect that critical opinion might be less than kind when considering Wouk’s oeuvre. But he wrote at least one novel I would consider to be great, the 1951 Pulitzer Prize-winning The Caine Mutiny . Set largely in WW II’s Pacific Theatre, it’s a combination Bildungsroman, character study of men operating under stress, and courtroom drama. Perhaps his most popular books were the two featuring WW II naval officer “Pug” Henry, The Winds of War (1971) and War and Remembrance (1978).

It’s a music video.

No.

♫ Who would have though after a thousand years it would end like this?
Oh whoa oh
Arya, I just died in your arms tonight
It must have been my army of dead... ♫

Mea culpa. I've added a spoiler warning to the original post.

Watching Lucifer series 1 on Netflix with Linda, and we both love it.

Thoroughly entertaining.

I’m on season three!

Presumably, it's holding up.

I'm glad I gave it a go.

Yes, still enjoyable.

On the other hand, I just read the BS ending of GOT and am really really glad I passed on that after book three or four. Jesus.

I may be in the extreme minority in that I am actually OK with most of the Game of Thrones ending having watched the finale last night. There are things I’m not happy about certainly but most of the characters ended in places that I was pretty pleased with.

D said:

I may be in the extreme minority in that I am actually OK with most of the Game of Thrones ending having watched the finale last night. There are things I’m not happy about certainly but most of the characters ended in places that I was pretty pleased with.

I was fine with most of the decisions on how the various characters ended their journey. But (and I hate to keep harping on this point) I often found myself disappointed by the execution. (view spoiler)[As just one example, in the show’s final episode Jon kills Dany while they embrace; this is such a corny, overworked trope. Even at roughly 90 minutes, the episode seemed oddly rushed and perfunctory. Gwendoline Christie gets a nice moment as she completes the entry for Jaime in some sort of record book, but that’s one of the episode’s few relatively subtle moments. (hide spoiler)] Let me be clear — at the end of the day I still think that Game of Thrones was better than the vast majority of television series, but I think during its last three seasons the creative team fumbled the ball a bit and missed out on an opportunity to be truly great.

I found myself laughing at so much of the finale that my sides are still sore this morning.

In no particular order: (view spoiler)[
-When they framed Dany with Drogon's outstretched wings I thought, "Crap, Malifecent is here to curse the spinning wheels!"
-Arya/Frodo sailing into the West to live with the elves?
-They did setup a spinoff sitcom with Jon, Tormund, and Ghost in their bachelors' pad north of the wall. (hide spoiler)]

Superhero Retirement Home: https://youtu.be/UL8Y4XBnFJM

The best four minutes of erudite ranting over Game of Thrones!
https://youtu.be/B4zGTD6Pa6Q
Go South China Post!

Are you ready for an army of witches?
https://youtu.be/6TvUS6zlm3g

Lena said (in part):

The best four minutes of erudite ranting over Game of Thrones!

Boy, I hate to be that guy who is out of step with popular critical opinion, but all of this ultra-angry venting about Game of Thrones seems to me a little out of proportion. Were the last few seasons perfect? By no means. Were events and character arcs needlessly rushed? Certainly. But this idea that the show quality declined to the point where it was utter dreck seems less an assessment grounded in objective reality and more another instance of toxic fan reaction run amok. The South China Post critic repeatedly seems to liken the show’s declining quality to a catastrophe of epic proportions (“Oh, the humanity!” he declaims.) And I found his ad hominem attacks, particularly those aimed at George R. R. Martin, offensive and cruel.

I don’t mean to belittle the opinions of those who were (in my view, justifiably) disappointed with the way the series stumbled to its conclusion. But I just want to push back a bit on what I see as the sometimes unfair and decidedly personal nature of some of that criticism.

I like the part where he says he was “bound by honor” to bitch because of all the previous seasons where he was a loyal and supportive fan. I laughed quite a bit. My nightmare for the show was that they would drag down whatever woman they chose to build up and then put a man on the throne. Guess what happened?

To everyone who didn’t get enough of the show, Downton the Movie: https://youtu.be/-_v3Wv9ae44

Lena,

(view spoiler)[Isn't Westerosi Scotland its own country with a woman in charge now? (hide spoiler)]

J. wrote: "Lena,

[spoilers removed]"

Lena said (in part):

My nightmare for the show was that they would drag down whatever woman they chose to build up and then put a man on the throne. Guess what happened?


Oops. My apologies. Shoulda used some spoiler tags here...

I was never really all that invested in any of the fan theories about who was going to “win” the game of thrones as long as the end result more or less made sense. (view spoiler)[To the extent I allowed myself to think about it at all, there seemed only three realistic female possibilities — Cersei, Dany, and Sansa. I had long ago discounted Cersei (although she wielded a great deal of power) because it was clear that George R. R. Martin, even though his books were lauded for their unpredictability, was never going to allow such a thoroughly disreputable character to wind up on top. Fans of the TV series would have gone nuts if that had happened. And, although we will probably be litigating this issue until the end of time, it seemed pretty clear to me by the end of Season 7 that external events were more and more exposing Dany’s already-present character flaws and I suspected then that, as a consequence, the Dany and Dany+Jon fans were probably going to be disappointed in the show’s final outcome. That left Sansa; and in spite of her own flaws (everybody in this show was to a greater or lesser degree both flawed and fallible), I went into the last episode thinking she had a reasonable good shot at sitting on the Iron Throne. And, although that’s not the way that events ultimately unfolded, she did end up as Queen of the North. (hide spoiler)]

I’m trying to think back over TV shows I was into that ended well and to my satisfaction, not always the same thing. The only one I can think of is Justified.
“We dug coal together.”

"Never assign to malice that which can be satisfactorily explained by incompetence."

HBO was backing up the money truck for a ninth and tenth season of ten episodes each, but D&D said no. I think that it's likely that D&D were eager to start their Star Wars movies, and had lost interest in GoT.

I’ve heard this, their self imposed deadline. I was surprised that Martin did not finish the books to go with the show but King took almost thirty years to get to the Tower.

On different note, anyone have $14,000? I’ve heard these are damn good. https://camelotbooks.com/books/detail...-

Lena said:

I’m trying to think back over TV shows I was into that ended well and to my satisfaction, not always the same thing. The only one I can think of is Justified.
“We dug coal together.”

That’s a very good point.

As an aside, the line that you cite was a direct lift from the Elmore Leonard story that served as a starting point for the series, “Fire in the Hole”.

Lena said (in part):

I was surprised that Martin did not finish the books to go with the show

So was Martin. As you probably know, when the idea of an HBO series was initially pitched, Martin was confident he could stay ahead of the show’s writing. Ah, hubris. But it wasn’t as though Martin didn’t try. This quote from an interview last November: “I’ve had dark nights of the soul where I’ve pounded my head against the keyboard and said, ‘God, will I ever finish this? The show is going further and further forward and I’m falling further and further behind.’”

That must have been hell. Of all the times to get writers block. On the other hand he has the chance JK Rowling did not, to take a step back and decide after seeing the work on screen. I’ve seen so many little snippets of her realizing things that she should/could have changed. Or not. You’re never going to make everyone happy but he has the chance to make himself happy with the work. Time certainly does not matter now.

He just posted it to my Solarpunk Group.

Just finished. I had read several of the books listed but other than maybe Oryx and Crake I had not thought of them as clifi. I ended up doing a write in - one of the two clifi books I have in my Read list. I will have to reconsider my definition.

It’s been a long time since I read it but I feel there was some reference, or maybe not.

Corinne said:

*scratches head* hmmmm Because the book had climate? I only read game of thrones from that list and it had zero impact on my feelings about climate. I don't get it.

George R. R. Martin made this connection explicit in a New York Times interview. Excerpts from that interview were published by Esquire and can be read online here.

Kim! Belated Happy Birthday!!!

Terminator 6! It doesn’t have to make sense, I’m seeing it anyway.
https://youtu.be/wa-w8GPWF-0