5. Ralph > Likes and Comments

5. Is Ralph Torridon a villain or a tragic figure?

Both.

I'll explain. It's possible that the villain of a literary work be at the same time a tragic figure. Without going in too much detail, I think Medea can be considered both things in Greek literature. In the legend of The Argonauts, she betrays her father, because she has fallen in love with Jason; and in the tragedy by Euripides, when Jason falls in love with another woman, she kills the woman and her father in a horrible way, and then kills her own children to avenge herself on Jason. I think she is clearly both a villain and a tragic figure.

Manuel wrote: "Both.

I'll explain. It's possible that the villain of a literary work be at the same time a tragic figure. Without going in too much detail, I think Medea can be considered both things in Greek li..."

That certainly explains why Medea is a villain, but why is Ralph both villain and tragic figure? :-)

John wrote: "That certainly explains why Medea is a villain, but why is Ralph both villain and tragic figure? :-)"

A villain: because he has taken Thomas Cromwell as his god, and never questions his orders. That he is a villain is proved by Beatrice's reaction at the end of Part I of Book II.

A tragic figure: because of the end of the book, a most tragic ending.

Manuel wrote: "John wrote: "That certainly explains why Medea is a villain, but why is Ralph both villain and tragic figure? :-)"

A villain: because he has taken Thomas Cromwell as his god, and never questions h..."

Does that mean you think Ralph has not saved his soul at the end? There is certainly ambiguity there, but isn't that chance, that hope enough to lesson the impact of tragedy? I think the end is intended to shed light on Henry, so I'll discuss my thoughts in that question. Formally, doesn't tragedy require that a character's downfall comes through the flaw in his character? In Ralph's case it comes about because of his resistance to that flaw.

While I completely agree that Ralph is a villain, I don't think he has made Cromwell his god, Cromwell is merely his road to authority, to power. Absent Beatrice (interesting "coincidence there - that would make a good question), Ralph would almost certainly have betrayed Cromwell and preserved the damning papers to save his own neck. I think Cromwell was not so much his god, but his Screwtape, leading him through his ambition step-by step deeper into apostasy and betrayal.

John wrote: "Does that mean you think Ralph has not saved his soul at the end?"

Not at all! A person can be a villain and save his soul at the end. Remember the parable of the workers in the vineyard.

John wrote: "Ralph is a villain, I don't think he has made Cromwell his god, Cromwell is merely his road to authority, to power."

At the end perhaps (I haven't finished reading the book), but at the beginning at least I think Cromwell was his god.

I didn't realize you hadn't finished the book. Let's take this up when you have. :-)

John wrote: "I didn't realize you hadn't finished the book. Let's take this up when you have. :-)"

OK. Anyway, I can answer this question:

John wrote: "Formally, doesn't tragedy require that a character's downfall comes through the flaw in his character?"

No, it doesn't. In the tragedy of Hamlet, the protagonist falls, not because there's a flaw in his character, but because he is murdered. I don't mean that his character is flawless, but he doesn't fall because of his flaws.

In Iphigenia in Aulis by Euripides, the protagonist is going to be sacrificed, not because of a flaw in her character, but because the gods demand her sacrifice to allow the Greek fleet to leave for Troy. And at the end Artemis (acting as deus-ex-machina) replaces Ifigenia by a doe, in a similar situation as Isaac's sacrifice, which gives the tragedy a happy end. (Greek tragedies may end-up happily:-)