Confucius (551–479 BCE) and the Confucian Tradition > Likes and Comments
date
newest »
newest »
According to the “Family Sayings,” an incident occurred on the way to Ts’e, which I may transfer to these pages as a good specimen of the way in which Confucius turned occurring matters to account in his intercourse with his disciples. As he was passing by the side of the T’ae mountain, there was a woman weeping and wailing by a grave. Confucius bent forward in his carriage, and after listening to her for some time, sent Tsze-loo to ask the cause of her grief. “You weep, as if you had experienced sorrow upon sorrow,” said Tsze-loo. The woman replied, “It is so. My husband’s father was killed here by a tiger, and my husband also; and now my son has met the same fate.” Confucius asked her why she did not remove from the place, and on her answering, “There is here no oppressive government,” he turned to his disciples, and said, “My children, remember this. Oppressive government is fiercer than a tiger.” [Legge’s note: “I have translated, however, from the Le Ke, II. Pt. II. iii. 10, where the same incident is given, with some variations, and without saying when or where it occurred.”]The Life and Teachings of Confucius (ed. and trans. Legge), 66–67.
In the nineteenth century, James Legge, a scholar and Christian missionary who spent decades in China, wrote the following about Confucius and Confucianism (footnotes omitted):At the present day [nineteenth century] education is widely diffused throughout China. In no other country is the schoolmaster more abroad, and in all schools it is Confucius who is taught. The plan of competitive examinations, and the selection for civil offices only from those who have been successful candidates,—good so far as the competition is concerned, but injurious from the restricted range of subjects with which an acquaintance is required,—have obtained for more than twelve centuries. The classical works are the text books. It is from them almost exclusively that the themes proposed to determine the knowledge and ability of the students are chosen. The whole of the magistracy of China is thus versed in all that is recorded of the sage, and in the ancient literature which he preserved. His thoughts are familiar to every man in authority, and his character is more or less reproduced in him.The Life and Teachings of Confucius (ed. and trans. Legge), 94–95.
The official civilians of China, numerous as they are, are but a fraction of its students, and the students, or those who make literature a profession, are again but a fraction of those who attend school for a shorter or longer period. Yet so far as the studies have gone, they have been occupied with the Confucian writings. In many school-rooms there is a tablet or inscription on the wall, sacred to the sage, and every pupil is required, on coming to school on the morning of the first and fifteenth of every month, to bow before it, the first thing, as an act of worship. Thus, all in China who receive the slightest tincture of learning do so at the fountain of Confucius. They learn of him and do homage to him at once. I have repeatedly quoted the statement that during his life-time he had three thousand disciples. Hundreds of millions are his disciples now. It is hardly necessary to make any allowance in this statement for the followers of Taouism and Buddhism, for, as Sir John Davis has observed, “whatever the other opinions or faith of a Chinese may be, he takes good care to treat Confucius with respect.[”] For two thousand years he has reigned supreme, the undisputed teacher of this most populous land.
As I continue to read about Confucius and Confucianism, I have come to realize that Confucius himself diligently practiced and even sometimes formulated Chinese rituals, music, and dance. Like Chinese culture generally, he also made sacrifices to his ancestors. It is unclear whether Confucius actually believed in such practices as a religious matter or whether he merely thought that such customs, when rightly conceived and practiced, were beneficial to Chinese culture. I suspect the latter (as does James Legge), but no one really knows. However this may be, Confucianism is not a revealed religion, i.e., it is not based on an alleged revelation. Confucius never claimed to communicate with, or receive instructions from, a supernatural being. He based his ethical maxims on his own philosophical reflections regarding what is best for humankind, not on any claim of special access to divine beings.
What happened to the Confucian tradition in China when Mao’s Communist revolution was successful in the twentieth century? Richard L. Wilson, a political science professor specializing, inter alia, in Chinese political and cultural matters, told me—based on the substantial amount of time he had spent in China—that although the Maoists attempted to suppress Confucianism, they were not successful in doing so. After Mao died, the Chinese people and some of their new leaders quickly returned to their historic Confucianism. Rick (whom I had known from the time we were high-school debaters together in a small town in Minnesota) was going to prepare a book on this, but, unfortunately, he passed away last year as a result of serious, multiple medical problems before he could write it.
(Edited January 27, 2022.)
For accounts of the Maoist anti-Confucius campaign, see the Wikipedia article “Criticize Lin, Criticize Confucius” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici...) and the scholarly paper by A. James Gregor and Maria Hsia Chang titled “Anti-Confucianism: Mao's Last Campaign,” Asian Survey 19, no. 11 (November 1979): 1073–92 (especially 1088–92), https://www.jstor.org/stable/2643955. (Note: those who don’t have institutional or individual subscription access to JSTOR/JPASS can read 100 articles a year free by creating a personal JSTOR account; see the information on the right of the initial JSTOR screen.)
I am currently preparing a book titled Reason and Human Ethics. Chapter 3 is provisionally titled “Individual Ethics: (Ethics regarding Oneself).” Subsequent chapters will discuss social ethics, citizen ethics, media ethics, and political ethics.This morning I decided to affix the following epigraph to Chapter 3 (“Individual Ethics”):
Things have their root and their completion. Affairs have their end and their beginning. To know what is first and what is last will lead near to what is taught in The Great Learning. . . .Properly understood, I think this statement (which was directly attributed to Confucius himself) epitomizes the essence of ethics. (Of course, never mind “the emperor,” which we don’t have anymore; substitute “political leaders.”)
From the emperor down to the mass of the people, all must consider the cultivation of the person the root of everything besides.
It cannot be, when the root is neglected, that what should spring from it will be well ordered.
—Confucius [citing Confucius, The Great Learning, ¶¶ 3, 6, 7, in The Life and Teachings of Confucius (ed. and trans. Legge), 265, 267 (italics in the Legge translation)]
As Shakespeare wrote (putting it in the mouth of Polonius in Hamlet), “Brevity is the soul of wit.” Confucius certainly would have agreed.
Purely by coincidence, I've been doing a lot of reading on ancient China recently, although mostly not in the Confucian tradition -- quite a bit on the obscure Mohist school, instead (there are two fairly recent translations, under the Pinyin name of Mo Zi).So I don't have anything fresh to contribute about the "Analects."
However, as background for anyone interested, I found Michael Nylan's The Five "Confucian" Classics to be an accessible source of information on the books deemed by Confucians (and most others) to be the oldest, like the "Documents," "Songs," and "Changes," although they eventually took second place in the Civil Service exams to Confucius and Mencius, and to excerpts from one of them, "The Book of Rites."
It is not essential to getting into the texts, but those starting out might want to be aware of it. I wish I had had it when I plunged into Arthur Waley's translations of the Analects and, especially, the Songs, too many years ago.
Ian wrote: "Purely by coincidence, I've been doing a lot of reading on ancient China recently, although mostly not in the Confucian tradition -- quite a bit on the obscure Mohist school, instead (there are two..."Thank you, Ian, for this information. I've now downloaded on Kindle The Five “Confucian” Classics, which looks very interesting, as well as the edition of the Analects edited by Michael Nyland and translated by Simon Leys.
I also downloaded the Ian Johnston translation of The Book of Mo, which looks fascinating. I never heard of Mo until you mentioned him. My wife and I recently watched about 70 episodes of The Qin Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Qin...) on Netflix. The Qin empire occurred, of course, during the Warring States period, in which power politics and warfare were predominant. Mo Zi lived during this period, and I am looking forward (if and when I have time) to compare his work with that of Confucius.
I wish I had another lifetime to learn Mandarin and become an expert on Chinese philosophy and history, but alas . . . .
My humble contribution to this chat. I've read Asian philosophy to an overt extent in my past. Perhaps, to no great gain. Nothing novel in this. But--as far as I can tell --the key difference between Oriental (pardon the term) "transcendence" and (Western) Judeo-Christianity is: morality.
As lowly as it might seem, the west is haunted by the servile concept of 'guilt' and 'conscience' that so provoked Nietzsche to paroxysm.
Asian principles imply that Man can be Salvaged via Method. In the West, Man is fallen, and salvation is via the abandonment of all worldly methods.
It a deep divide, and I think a fruitless one.
In Asian terms, Jesus could have --should have --'done something differently' to escape his fate. He should have been stronger, better, tougher, more clever.
This makes no sense to a Westerner.
Personally, what most reviles me in the Passion is the methodology of the Roman system. Jesus was just one of thousands crucified. Casually and callously. What I object to most is Method.
I say: happiness cannot be manufactured either by religion, government, or economics.
Feliks wrote: "My humble contribution to this chat. I've read Asian philosophy to an overt extent in my past. Perhaps, to no great gain. Nothing novel in this. But--as far as I can tell --the key difference bet..."
Although I have just begun my study of Confucius, it's my understanding that he was a strong ethicist in a nonreligious sense. In other words, his ethics was based on philosophical reflection on what is good for human beings, not on divine revelation. Thus, there is none of the Christian original sin, guilt, threats of hellfire, etc. This is why I find Confucius's viewpoint so refreshing. It is my understanding that there is such a thing as an appropriate human ethics, but it should be based on reason, not hell and damnation. That's what my forthcoming book Reason and Human Ethics is all about. It is a totally secular approach to ethics.
James Legge, who was a Christian missionary in China as well as a scholar, agreed with my interpretation of Confucius. But he thought that this secular attitude of Confucius was wrong. Legge was trying to convert the Chinese to Christianity during his three-decade sojourn in China in the nineteenth century. Evidently, he was no more successful in that endeavor than the Maoists were in converting them to Communism.
All I know about Asian philosophy, so far, is some of Confucius. I know little or nothing about the other Asian philosophers or religionists.
Yes, I saw you mention the theme of your new book in one of the other threads; it's mighty audacious/dazzling. Not one I ever recall having seen before. US journalist Edgar Snow is the author I turn to for Mao; he covered the Chinese Revolution and it's good reading. Indeed horrible mistakes were made later; but Mao started out with grand ideals that Chinese peasants took to; died for in battle; feats like the Long March demonstrated this at the time.
This is long but I decided against breaking it up.Mainly for those following along:
Although obsolete in a number of topics, a long-time go-to guide for Chinese philosophy is Fung Yu-Lan (or Feng Youlan): A History of Chinese Philosophy, Volume 1: The Period of the Philosophers (the second volume will be found less relevant for the present purposes). The revised considerations in A Short History of Chinese Philosophy, may be enough for most readers. It has, among other differences, some additional speculations on the social origins of the Warring States period "schools" of philosophy.
The forms of the author's name (Fung/Feng, etc.) are typical of the switch from the Wade-Giles transliterations, which dominated 20th-century English-language Sinology, to the Pinyin system developed in China, which has been replacing it over the last couple of decades. There are tables in a number of places showing how to convert W-G to Pinyin.
Both systems have some odd choices of how to use Roman letters, and proper, official Pinyin doesn't divide syllables with hyphens, producing unpronounceable-looking clusters of letters. But a lot of books using Pinyin do introduce the old hyphenations or word divisions for the benefit of novices.
To complicate matters, Legge used a pre-Wade-Giles system, with some strange features, and it is often very hard to figure out his personal and place names when trying to find later discussions, unless page references or other precise guides are available, since indexes will be of limited use.
Around 1970, Clae Waltham edited a couple of translation-only volumes of Legge, with names converted to Wade-Giles, although these are now long out of print.
For Pinyin versions of the major works, Dragon Reader has issued bilingual Kindle versions of several of Legge's translations (mostly without his commentaries), which are cheap, and surprisingly easy to use. I have not been able to call them up on Goodreads, but see, for example, https://www.amazon.com/Analects-Confu...
Unfortunately, the Dragon Reader version of the Legge Book of Changes (Yi King/I Ching/Yi Jing) contains only the hexagram line verses, and not the appendices, with philosophical reflections as well as divinations, which are the vast bulk of the Chinese text.
To illustrate, the same archeological site, productive of ancient manuscripts, and therefore frequently mentioned in the last couple of decades, is Ma-wang-tui in W-G, and either Mawangdui or Ma-wang-dui in Pinyin. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui for a quick rundown on the discoveries there.)
Finally, on James Legge and his work, there are some modern studies, the most important of which, I think, is by a Sinologist of note, Norman J. Girardot: The Victorian Translation of China: James Legge's Oriental Pilgrimage. (I must admit to have put it aside for more urgent readings for Goodreads discussions, and have not yet returned to it.)
Ian wrote: "This is long but I decided against breaking it up.Mainly for those following along:
Although obsolete in a number of topics, a long-time go-to guide for Chinese philosophy is [author:Fung Yu-Lan..."
Many thanks for the bibliographical references and the transliteration information, all of which are quite helpful.
As I mentioned in the first post in the present thread, an exact facsimile of the second edition (1869) of Legge's volume 1 of The Chinese Classics is available through the HathiTrust Digital Library at https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i.... HathiTrust also has many other volumes of Legge and other sinologists. I happen to have institutional access to HathiTrust through my alumni association and accordingly can download as well as read online the books on their site. For those who don't have institutional access and wish to download the books, I believe that many of them are available, free of charge, on Google Books or Internet Archive. These three sites, of course, only reproduce books that are long out of copyright.
On Chinese and Christian views of humanity:This topic could easily fill a couple of dissertations, depending on which Chinese and which Christian views one chose as typical, although St. Augustine and Original Sin are hardly to be avoided where the latter is concerned.
Early Confucianists differed widely over whether human nature was basically good or bad: see, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xun_Kuang for an early "pessimist" who thought that strict control of the masses was necessary.
Mencius, who achieved canonical status during the Tang dynasty, was notably more optimistic, but still thought training and, for the rulers, great personal discipline, was necessary to realize essential human goodness.
The Dao-de-Jing (Tao-Te-Ching) of course rejected all such meddling, treating it as the source, rather than the cure for, selfish and otherwise anti-social behavior.
Ian wrote (#12): "The revised considerations in A Short History of Chinese Philosophy, may be enough for most readers."I just now downloaded the Short History of Chinese Philosophy on Kindle. Unfortunately, the larger work doesn't have a Kindle edition, and I have difficulty reading many print books in my old age. There is no point to my spending a lot of money buying a print book that I cannot read. In any event, the Short History should suffice for my present purposes.
Thanks again for alerting us to these references.
Alan wrote: "I have difficulty reading many print books in my old age..."I'm in the same situation.
I don't recall the full History being in especially small type, but I read it when I was much, much younger, and it might be a strain these days.
Wing-tsit Chan's old A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy is packed with useful readings, and I once used it as a companion to Feng Yu-lan: but its Kindle edition is, at least by my standards, expensive: https://www.amazon.com/Source-Chinese...
Then again, I bought a copy in the 1960s or early 1970s, so my idea of "expensive" involves some unrealistic "sticker shot."
Ian wrote (#13): "On Chinese and Christian views of humanity:This topic could easily fill a couple of dissertations, depending on which Chinese and which Christian views one chose as typical, although St. Augustin..."
Thank you again for your thoughts. I was impressed at how clearly Legge demarcated Confucianism (per Confucius, as distinguished from later Confucians) and Christianity, while at the same time being pretty accurate (as far as I know) in his description of Confucius's thought. Legge, of course, sided with Christianity, whereas I would side with Confucius (with reservations regarding his emphasis on traditional Chinese ritual etc.). Legge seemed to admire Confucius, but his dedication to Christian missionary work limited that admiration. He must have struggled, intellectually, between these two worldviews during the three decades he was in China.
Ian wrote (#15): "Alan wrote: "I have difficulty reading many print books in my old age..."I'm in the same situation.
I don't recall the full History being in especially small type, but I read it when I was much,..."
Thanks for the additional reference, which I may eventually download.
I have discovered that academic publishers often charge exorbitant prices, even for Kindle editions--often between $50 and $100 (or even more). I tell relatives to give me Amazon gift cards instead of regular presents for my birthday etc., but they don't always oblige (they think I already I have too many books and that giving me money to buy another book is like giving a homeless person money to buy alcohol; they are trying to cure me of my book addiction). When I do receive an Amazon gift card, I often apply it to the price of one of those more expensive academic books.
Academia.edu has pdfs of academic works, usually papers, but sometimes complete books, available free (with a free membership: and they track what you are downloading, in case that bothers you), as uploaded by the authors, and in some cases editors. There are a couple of dedicated users who add links to material that is free on other websites, but they wind up being listed as the "author," which gets confusing. There is also a "Premium" level, with more services, which I have declined in the interests of my budget.Its search engine is not as intuitive as I would like. Fortunately, I often look up references found elsewhere with the author's name, and scroll down or search the appropriate page, but searching by titles or subjects can be an exercise in frustration. Their sidebars of related titles are sometimes more helpful.
As for commercial offerings: I find the current Kindle prices for those works which were aimed at students (well, in some cases graduate students) to begin with, and which have been in print, presumably profitably, for up to half a century, to be especially annoying.
Some academic publications seem to have been subsidized with grants requiring free distribution, which can be satisfied by free Kindle editions. I have accumulated a considerable number of these, including some I will probably never read, but which looked too interesting to pass up.
As for buying books, I have some relatives like that.
C.S. Lewis quipped that the buying of books should be a scholar's ONLY vice, but they never read him, and probably would have missed the point if they did.
I am very active on Academia (https://chicago.academia.edu/AlanJohnson), but I find (and post) mostly papers on that site. Occasionally, however, I do find an entire book to download, which is a welcome surprise.Robert Hanna, an independent philosopher, posts a multitude of his books (many of them free to download) and papers (always free to download) on his Academia site (https://colorado.academia.edu/RobertH...). Bob is a member of this group and runs the "Philosophy Without Borders" topic, which I have exempted from our usual rule against comments not related to ethical or political philosophy (his books and papers always eventually get back to ethical and political philosophy, even if it is by a circuitous and sometimes implicit route).
In reply to Ian and Alan, I too am active at academic.edu. There are great limits there because no publication should be posted there without permission from the publisher, though I expect some people do that anyway. In cases where permission was denied, I post information about the text, but in place of the text I post the letter denying permission or whatever information the publisher said I could post.
Alan, we've had this discussion before but your post indicates why I could not imagine doing academic research without the resources of a great university library, like Chicago's. Oregon State's library is pretty good, but no match for Chicago's. To compensate, there is a network of academic libraries in the Northwest. You can get any book from any library in the network, but only for short periods when the book is in one of the libraries in the network rather than your own. By contrast, at Oregon State if no one requests a book, I can keep it for six months and renew it online twice for an additional year; after that, to keep it longer I need to take the book to the library for them to see it before checking it in and checking it back out to me. In addition, Oregon State has interlibrary loan access to get any book or any journal article from any academic library in the country.
I imagine you could get physical access to books and journals at academic libraries in the Pittsburgh area, though probably for much shorter periods.
I know you said you need to mark up a book to read it. I understand, but you have to find ways. I realized many years ago that I couldn't keep buying the books I needed. I limited myself in two ways: first, purchase books I expected to use extensively not only for a year or so, but for many years; second, purchase books that I might use extensively only for a short time, but that would probably get an enormous number of references in material I expected to read, so that owning the book would allow me to check references without having to run to the library over and over. Even with these limitations I ended up with a houseful of books. My wife had to sacrifice space for decoration on a lot of walls to make room for bookcases.
I imagine Kindle can help a great deal by reducing costs, but that did not become available until recently and I haven't taken advantage of it, though I may in the near future. Other means of electronic access are also helpful. If these were available years ago I probably could have given up my second reason for purchasing books and saved a few walls for my wife.
Robert wrote: "Alan, we've had this discussion before but your post indicates why I could not imagine doing academic research without the resources of a great university library, like Chicago's. Oregon State's library is pretty good, but no match for Chicago's. To compensate, there is a network of academic libraries in the Northwest. You can get any book from any library in the network, but only for short periods when the book is in one of the libraries in the network rather than your own. By contrast, at Oregon State if no one requests a book, I can keep it for six months and renew it online twice for an additional year; after that, to keep it longer I need to take the book to the library for them to see it before checking it in and checking it back out to me. In addition, Oregon State has interlibrary loan access to get any book or any journal article from any academic library in the country."Bob, please see my response in post 2 of the new Research and Publication topic. I initially called it “Independent Scholars and Self-Publication,” but, on further reflection, that title was too narrow.
In their editorial introduction to The Analects of Confucius: A Philosophical Translation, translators Roger T. Ames and Henry Rosemont state: This endurance [of Confucianism] is not merely evidenced by the fact that the most successful—in strictly economic terms—of non-Western nations in modernizing their societies have been those heavily influenced by the Confucian tradition: Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, and more recently, China itself. The “Confucian Hypothesis” [endnote omitted] which is regularly invoked to describe this success, often depicts an authoritarian Confucius who, in our opinion, is a very different one from the sagely teacher found in the Analects. Our Confucius is undogmatic (9.4), not concerned with personal profit (4.16, 7.7), dislikes competitiveness (3.7), sets little store by material possessions (1.15), and is more concerned about equitable distribution of wealth than wealth itself (16.1); it is neither an authoritarian nor a capitalist Confucius that is met in the pages of the present book.Analects (trans. and ed. Ames and Rosemont), 19.
For all these reasons, then, the Analects should not be read merely for antiquarian interest, or for modern economic insight either. Rather should the reader consider seriously the possibility that there might be much in this text that speaks not only to East Asians, but perhaps to everyone; not only to the scholars of the past, but perhaps to all those who wish to help shape a more decent and humane future today.
Confucius, Analects, 11.12:Zilu asked how to serve the spirits and gods. The Master [Confucius] said, “You are not yet able to serve men, how could you serve the spirits?”(translation changed, March 20, 2022)
Zilu said, “May I ask you about death?” The Master said, “You do not yet know life, how could you know death?” (Analects [trans. Leys], 30)
I have reviewed Henry Rosemont Jr.’s book Against Individualism: A Confucian Rethinking of the Foundations of Morality, Politics, Family, and Religion here.
You may have come across this already, but for some reason, after several searches failed to turn it up, Academia.edu just brought to my attention a paper from 2012 that you might find useful:"The Birth of Confucianism from Competition with Organized Mohism," by Christoph Harbsmeier
Ian wrote: "You may have come across this already, but for some reason, after several searches failed to turn it up, Academia.edu just brought to my attention a paper from 2012 that you might find useful:"Th..."
Thanks, Ian. I'll check it out.
MARCH 12, 2022 NOTE:I accidently created two topics regarding Confucius. I have now closed the other thread (https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...) to additional comments. Please post any further comments regarding Confucius in the present thread.
I have reviewed the Simon Leys translation of Confucian Analects here. This review also discusses the translation of the Analects by Roger Ames and Henry Rosemont Jr.
For quotes from Confucius on ethical matters, see the “Apt Quotes” topic at posts 109 and 110 (August 29, 2022).
Anecdotal: when just a wee lad --overweening intellect like many other precocious tykes --I inculcated a longstanding interest in Asian philosophy. For years, I devoured works by from China and Japan. Lau-tzu particularly was my fave. Fast-forward to some point-in-time, after graduating university. It was then a long interval since I read such authors. I resumed dabbling in the East, but then something changed my outlook entirely.
Possible reason: something I found in a novel by English writer, Lawrence Durrell. Somewhere in Alexandria Quartet, Pursewarden (a character) questions the whole trend of 'orientalism' popular in the '20s and '30s.
My crude paraphrase: "What good is transcendentalism if one does not transcend morally?"
Up until that paragraph, I had always deemed Taoism an interesting competitor to Christianity. But Durrell made a point I could not deny. What is the point of striving for 'betterness', if you do not behave better towards your fellow man?
Ever afterwards, everything Asian (philosophy, art, religion) has been a dud with me. I traveled later in remote China (extensively) but Durrell's encomium still rang true.
It's as you say, Alan E.--politics and ethics are the essential things. The proper study of man, is man.
To this day, I still deem most of Asian/Indian mysticism to be mere ego/vanity. There's just no boast in 'levitating', if you are are jerk.
Yes, but Confucius was an exception to the mystical notions of other Asian philosophers, as indicated by the quotations I referenced in post 29 (August 30, 2022) above. Although he could not yet know it, Confucius was also an exception to much of Western philosophy and theology. The cover of my book Reason and Human Ethics has pictures (probably not accurate likenesses) of Confucius and Socrates. Both of these philosophers were concerned with human life, ethics, and politics, as distinguished from fancy metaphysical or theological speculation. Both said that they did not think they knew what, in fact, they did not know. Nevertheless, both paid lip service to the conventions of their time and place, though neither was conventional enough: Confucius was denied positions as a wise counselor to governmental leaders, and Socrates was tried and executed for religious unorthodoxy.
THE HISTORY OF CHINESE CIVIL SERVICE EXAMS AND THEIR RELATION TO AUTOCRACYThe following article is a very interesting account of the history of Chinese civil service exams and how such exams have supported authoritarian government in China: https://aeon.co/essays/why-chinese-mi....
This article correctly distinguishes at one point between Confucianism and Neo-Confucianism. However, the article later seems to merge the two phenomena. Confucius himself was a profound moral philosopher and, to a lesser extent, an “interesting” political philosopher (he lived in a time and place that was much different from today’s political situations). I discuss his ethical views in my Reason and Human Ethics (a replica of the paperback of which is reproduced online in PDF at https://www.academia.edu/107899091/Re...). With regard to the development of the later civil service exams based on rote memorization at the expense of ethical awareness, one should recall Confucius’s dictum: “Be a noble scholar, not a vulgar pedant” (Analects 6.13, in The Analects of Confucius, trans. and ed. Simon Leys (New York: W. W. Norton, 1997).
See also Yasheng Huang, The Rise and Fall of the East: How Exams, Autocracy, Stability, and Technology Brought China Success, and Why They Might Lead to Its Decline (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2023).
Justice Bao Zheng (999 - 1062). A figure of great judiciary fame in Chinese history. Not as well-known in the west as Confucius but --in a minor way --a similarly legendary figure in Chinese wisdom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bao_Zheng
Alan wrote: "Ian wrote: "Purely by coincidence, I've been doing a lot of reading on ancient China recently, although mostly not in the Confucian tradition -- quite a bit on the obscure Mohist school, instead (t..."I want to learn English too! I don’t understand English, haha. Every time I read and reply to your messages, I have to rely on translation software. By the way, my book just happens to briefly cover this part of history in the afterword, and I’ve even included a timeline.
Ian wrote: "On Chinese and Christian views of humanity:This topic could easily fill a couple of dissertations, depending on which Chinese and which Christian views one chose as typical, although St. Augustin..."
Xunzi was indeed an unconventional figure within Confucianism, advocating the theory that human nature is inherently evil—a stance diverging from the mainstream Confucian ideology. His exposition on the evil nature of humanity bears some resemblance to Daoist thought, yet the governance approach he proposed remained rooted in the hierarchical system characteristic of Confucianism.
Furthermore, the concept of “non-interference” in the Dao De Jing advocates that the government should refrain from interfering with the people, allowing them to self-regulate. Yet this principle remains unresolved by China's mainstream scholars to this day. Or perhaps it has been resolved, but authoritarian governments suppress its expression.
Feliks wrote: "Anecdotal: when just a wee lad --overweening intellect like many other precocious tykes --I inculcated a longstanding interest in Asian philosophy. For years, I devoured works by from China and Jap..."“What is the point of striving for 'betterness', if you do not behave better towards your fellow man?”
Excellent! Exactly! I agree!
By the way, when you mentioned Lau-tzu, are you referring to Laozi from the Dao De Jing? I’d like to point out that Laozi’s transcendentalism is meant for rulers to practice, not the general public!
re: msg #37, posted by 'Qi'https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Hallo Qi
The Laotse (or, Lao-Tzu (sp?) title I enjoyed was this simple/convenient/popular text from Penguin:
Lao Tzu: Tao Te Ching
Nothing very serious nor academic.
Feliks wrote: "re: msg #37, posted by 'Qi'https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Hallo Qi
The Laotse (or, Lao-Tzu (sp?) title I..."
I’ve seen several versions of his translation, and they’re all pretty much the same. As a Chinese person, I’ll refrain from commenting on this translation... but I strongly recommend you check out my translation, Sequential Tao Te Ching: East and West — One Origin, Divergent Paths, One Destination, and you’ll see the difference.You will encounter something particularly serious and academic.
Qi, Ian, Feliks, et al.: We are very fortunate to now have a Chinese scholar (Qi) in this group to whom the language is native. I look forward to further discussions. At the moment, however, I am preoccupied with some other matters. I'll keep following the messages in this topic and will reply, when appropriate and when I have time to do so.
I am currently reading the following works on Confucius and the Confucian tradition, and my posts in this topic cite these writings by their short forms designated below:
• Confucius. The Analects. Translated by Simon Leys. Edited by Michael Nylan. New York: W. W. Norton, 2014. Kindle. Short form: Analects (trans. Leys).
• Confucius. “The Analects of Confucius”: A Philosophical Translation. Translated and edited by Roger T. Ames and Henry Rosemont Jr. New York: Ballantine Books, 1998. Kindle. Short form: Analects (trans. Ames and Rosemont).
• James Legge, editor and translator. The Life and Teachings of Confucius. 2nd ed. London: N. Trüber, 1869. This volume includes, inter alia, Legge’s translations of the Confucian Analects, The Great Learning, and The Doctrine of the Mean. Short form: The Life and Teachings of Confucius (ed. and trans. Legge). Cited page numbers are to this 1869 Trüber print edition, which can be accessed at https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i.... This book is also available in a 2016 Owlfoot Kindle edition, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01..., which references the Trüber print edition pagination in intratextual brackets. This work is volume 1 of Legge’s five-volume edition titled The Chinese Classics.
MARCH 12, 2022 NOTE: I accidently created two topics regarding Confucius. I have now closed the other thread (https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...) to additional comments. Please post any further comments regarding Confucius in the present thread.
(Last edited March 20, 2022.)