Kat Kennedy’s review of Kushiel's Dart (Phèdre's Trilogy, #1) > Likes and Comments
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I can't wait to see your take on this, after reading about your experiences (ahem - lack thereof, I mean) with b***s***s.
Kat wrote: "What have you gotten me into, GN?"
Hahaa, oh, I know exactly how you feel.
That's quite the commitment, this book is huge!
I enjoyed this series quite a bit. Although it does take a while to get to the meat of the story in the first book. Lots of world introduction. It was definitely unique. Although not something I'd pick up if I was in the mood for a quick and easy story.
Meat? Quick and easy? It affected you too, Catherine.
G N wrote: "Meat? Quick and easy? It affected you too, Catherine."
I'm sorry, I'm occasionally slow on the uptake with the lack of context in just text. What exactly did you mean, G N?
Sorry, I thought I was over on Tatiana's review of Top Chef!
Love those turtles.
OK, based on your review I most likely will not like this. In fact, the sheer size of the book turned me off. Great and most hilarious review.
I am, personally, very much thankful for this review, Kat. I've seen some of the reviews, but none say it so eloquently what is wrong with this book. Plus BDSM and such is not something I can stomach or enjoy reading about it.
AH and Tatiana - I very much doubt either of you would enjoy this book at all.
Great review, Kat! I liked all the pictures you included. Made it fun to read. :)
I think we two are the only souls who didn't like this, Kat, LOL. Which is really baffling because I usually always see people up in arms about BDSM, and this was actually abuse more than BDSM so those vociferous protests would actually be warranted. I think some people just didn't understand it, LOL.
I didn't even get very far. I completely agree that her writing and atmosphere are outstanding. It's too bad I don't care for the content (not that they're all sexual). It's the same problem I have with her other works.
Nicole, she is narrating as an adult and begins her story as a child, going through her years as a student to the arts of love making and serving others sexually etc which begins from the age of ten.
I've read up until just after her first actual sex encounter which was supposed to start when she was thirteen but didn't until she was sixteen.
Nicole, also she doesn't see it as being molested. She's very proud of her heritage and more than eager to serve Namaah with her body, if ya know what I mean.
NU, yes, I'm quite shocked at how popular this is. I hardly see myself as a prude but I just couldn't actually reconcile this with what I know of BDSM. In BDSM the submissive usually has more power than the dominant and everything is about trust and the thrill of the sensation.
In this book it's just about getting the shit kicked out of you without the pleasure of a by your leave and enjoying it because that's who you are.
Ok, this is getting more and more disturbing, especially the way you put it, with the whole kid grooming stuff. How can people possibly buy into someone enjoying pain scenario if in fact she was groomed to understand it as the right thing to do as a child? This is wrong on so many levels.
Apparently you have to have the "Potential" to start out with. It's in her biology to find her release with pain. *Cue eyeroll* But it's basically a lot of child grooming, yeah.
What floors me is that my totally inadequate library has this book, but none of my favorite urban fantasies that have little or no sex. ARGH!
It reminded me of the children of god cult.
Same, AH! Same! Thanks Mandy!
Mariel, I'm almost scared to ask...
Good review, Kat. Thanks for the warning about this big book of "eeww"!
Sam - you should be!
Luisa, I just couldn't do it to myself!
I think the most distressing thing is that one of the lists this book is on is for 'strong female characters'- a list which also features Sabriel.
Great review, Kat! I think I'll take this off of my list.
It seems to me like she's trying to convey a message about sex in all her novels.
In her Kushiel series she approaches -rather, thinks she approaches- BDSM and the leading idea is "Love as thou wilt."
In Santa Maria, her protagonist's a lesbian who can only love her soulmate due to her biology, iirc. That happens to be a woman, etc.
In her Sundering duology, the underdog/misunderstood hero is a vilified god/satan figure-- who happens to be the god of fertility/sex and knows the secret of life. He's sort of a martyr.
So I guess her message is sex is good and stop vilifying it, but it doesn't improve her novels, LOL.
Now you all know why I asked Kat to read it :D. What a review! (sorry, Kat, but you just...um...do it so much better!)
@Sam msg 28;...you blood-lovin', gore fiend. Upset your appetite, huh? :D
@New_user msg 16;...you and Kat aren't the only ones.
Just how much tortoise sex does this book have exactly?
OMG. Did Robert Heinlein finally get his brain transplanted into a woman's body, as he always threatened he would? It would explain a lot.
Though, you're right, maybe a hot female tortoise would be even better - it'd kind of combine the plots of I Will Fear No Evil and Starship Troopers. A fan-fic crying out to be written!
Manny wrote: Though, you're right, maybe a hot female tortoise would be even better - it'd kind of combine the plots of I Will Fear No Evil and Starship Troopers. A fan-fic crying out to be written! "
Manny - waiting for your fanfiction! LOL!
Its true I guess that not every book is for every reader, but its seems like this review focuses on three things to the exclusion of everything else:
1. The novel has a lot of BDSM.
2. Teens are involved in sex
3. Some of the characters involved use pain for sexual purposes.
Its true. All of those items are present in the novel. Its equally true that many of those items are not found in traditional fantasy.
Its also a well written, interesting, richly textured novel, with a very interesting central character, who uses her gifts from her goddess as a spy and as a warrior for her country. Its not just the usual fantasy novel, and its certainly not for every reader.
Phaedre is not just a princess born in a tower who suddenly wakes up one day and takes a sword and goes on to become a prime warrior. She is a courtesan, an avatar of the goddess of pleasure and pain.
Is it a nice world. Not really. Is there a lot of sexual content to the novel. No doubt. can that be a turn off. Obviously from these reviews and comments, it can be.
However, if you are willing to try to read something outside your comfort zone you might give it a try.
Sam wrote: ".... whips and chaines. I'll read it. Just so I can then write a review..."
It was the scene with the glass shards that did what was left of my head in...not to put too fine a point on it.
I think Kat stresses more on kids being groomed for BDSM sex rather than what you've listed, Jeffrey.
Okay, now I'm scared to read this book! *hides*
Jeffrey, I did mention that I loved the atmosphere, the political intrigue and the writing.
However, Phedre is an unreliable narrator. You say that she is an avatar to the goddess of pain. Actually, she is a victim. Sexualizing young children is a form of abuse and from what I read she spent a great deal of time trying to defend and protect her abusers.
If you have read Four Ways to Forgiveness then you will know what I mean when I say that a slave has no ability to consent to sex. They are property and sexual freedom is just as important and personal freedom.
I don't believe that I have narrow reading comforts. As I said, I've read and enjoyed BDSM before and I have an associate who is a practitioner. This is not BDSM. This is just a wank fantasy of abuse as far as I could see. That I don't endorse.
Manny - I can't imagine what kind of woman Robert Heinlein would be! Probably something very similar to me only not quite as slutty!
Kat, I thought of "A Woman's Liberation" as well reading your review. A sexuality forced onto someone as a child is not a healthy sexuality.
I am not against you disliking a book and your negative review of the book. I happened to like the book when I read it.
I am troubled that many of the readers of your review are focusing on children sexuality when I feel that its not a significant part of the novel. For instance there is your followup to your review
"Actually, she is a victim. Sexualizing young children is a form of abuse and from what I read she spent a great deal of time trying to defend and protect her abusers."
My feeling is the character has to overcome what happens to her.
And the world is very well conceived and conceptualized in a way that is not done often in fantasy. The character is very novel. The sexual overtones of the book are very new. Its not about her defending her "abusers" What it turns out to be is she has to find her way in this world and eventually does. Its a far cry from the John Norman's Gor novels, which did enslave women.
Instead its a very stylized novel about a different kind of heroine.
It seemed to me that your review and other comments herein about the sexuality specifically talking about children was a tad unfair to the author and the world therein, and of course others who did not read the book, then focus solely on that aspect of your review -- the charge of sexuality with children and take that to be the be all and end all of your review.
No one especially not me is defending sex with children, its disgusting, but the book has to be read in its entirety not one section or another out of context.
I am not the only person, of course who liked the novel. Many mainstream reviewers found it very good as well. See for instance:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/prod...
In which there are starred reviews from Publisher's Weekly, Booklist and the Library Journal none of which are going to recommend a book that condones children sexuality.
Anyway enough about this book. On to the next
I fully understand your opinion.
I just can't read a book and enjoy it to the exclusion of the sex invovled.
Anyway, enough of that. People will still read the book if they want to!
Kat, you didn't read further into the book...but it's quite interesting, in the light of your comments regarding the sexualisation of children and in the case of Phaedre, who takes the submissive role as well as expect/accept pain as a result of her 'marked' nature, because it's a power hungry, domineering, manipulative and truly bad-bottomed character that she falls for...isn't that what happens in passive/addictive personalities?
Well, but Melisande is not the only person she falls for, and she does so when she's pretty immature still. And I think even she recognizes that it's mostly hormones and their respective godly influences drawing them together.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
Her main love interest in the series is noble, devoted, and respectful to her.
I saw Phedre's young age (at the beginning of her training) as typical of a medieval or pseudo-medieval world. It's not something I condone; it's just that things like that happened back then--girls married off at 12, that kind of thing.
Er, Kelly, I hate to break it to you, but the whole married off by twelve thing is so not even close to medieval. It's more a Rococo thing.
You might see, say, like a princess or prince betrothed at a young age, but outside of special circumstances marriage still took place later--20 would be a good average.
(Sorry, Kat, but there's so many misconceptions about the medieval period in fantasy, I just couldn't help myself -.-;)
OK, I stand corrected. I had been thinking there had been a lot of young marriages, but I was thinking later, now that you mention it, and often it would take a while for them to consummate it anyway. And yeah, I should have specified that the crazier ages were mostly the nobility. :)
After this, I must follow your reviews. This was priceless.
I keep trying and trying to get through this book because my friends loved it but I just can't. Can't stomach it. It is about time I completely abandoned it I think. Your review helped with that decision. Thanks.
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I can't wait to see your take on this, after reading about your experiences (ahem - lack thereof, I mean) with b***s***s.
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Kat wrote: "What have you gotten me into, GN?"Hahaa, oh, I know exactly how you feel.
That's quite the commitment, this book is huge!
I enjoyed this series quite a bit. Although it does take a while to get to the meat of the story in the first book. Lots of world introduction. It was definitely unique. Although not something I'd pick up if I was in the mood for a quick and easy story.
Meat? Quick and easy? It affected you too, Catherine.
G N wrote: "Meat? Quick and easy? It affected you too, Catherine."I'm sorry, I'm occasionally slow on the uptake with the lack of context in just text. What exactly did you mean, G N?
Sorry, I thought I was over on Tatiana's review of Top Chef!
Love those turtles. OK, based on your review I most likely will not like this. In fact, the sheer size of the book turned me off. Great and most hilarious review.
I am, personally, very much thankful for this review, Kat. I've seen some of the reviews, but none say it so eloquently what is wrong with this book. Plus BDSM and such is not something I can stomach or enjoy reading about it.
AH and Tatiana - I very much doubt either of you would enjoy this book at all.
Great review, Kat! I liked all the pictures you included. Made it fun to read. :)
I think we two are the only souls who didn't like this, Kat, LOL. Which is really baffling because I usually always see people up in arms about BDSM, and this was actually abuse more than BDSM so those vociferous protests would actually be warranted. I think some people just didn't understand it, LOL.I didn't even get very far. I completely agree that her writing and atmosphere are outstanding. It's too bad I don't care for the content (not that they're all sexual). It's the same problem I have with her other works.
Nicole, she is narrating as an adult and begins her story as a child, going through her years as a student to the arts of love making and serving others sexually etc which begins from the age of ten. I've read up until just after her first actual sex encounter which was supposed to start when she was thirteen but didn't until she was sixteen.
Nicole, also she doesn't see it as being molested. She's very proud of her heritage and more than eager to serve Namaah with her body, if ya know what I mean.
NU, yes, I'm quite shocked at how popular this is. I hardly see myself as a prude but I just couldn't actually reconcile this with what I know of BDSM. In BDSM the submissive usually has more power than the dominant and everything is about trust and the thrill of the sensation. In this book it's just about getting the shit kicked out of you without the pleasure of a by your leave and enjoying it because that's who you are.
Ok, this is getting more and more disturbing, especially the way you put it, with the whole kid grooming stuff. How can people possibly buy into someone enjoying pain scenario if in fact she was groomed to understand it as the right thing to do as a child? This is wrong on so many levels.
Apparently you have to have the "Potential" to start out with. It's in her biology to find her release with pain. *Cue eyeroll* But it's basically a lot of child grooming, yeah.
What floors me is that my totally inadequate library has this book, but none of my favorite urban fantasies that have little or no sex. ARGH!
It reminded me of the children of god cult.
Same, AH! Same! Thanks Mandy!Mariel, I'm almost scared to ask...
Good review, Kat. Thanks for the warning about this big book of "eeww"!
Sam - you should be!Luisa, I just couldn't do it to myself!
I think the most distressing thing is that one of the lists this book is on is for 'strong female characters'- a list which also features Sabriel.Great review, Kat! I think I'll take this off of my list.
It seems to me like she's trying to convey a message about sex in all her novels. In her Kushiel series she approaches -rather, thinks she approaches- BDSM and the leading idea is "Love as thou wilt."
In Santa Maria, her protagonist's a lesbian who can only love her soulmate due to her biology, iirc. That happens to be a woman, etc.
In her Sundering duology, the underdog/misunderstood hero is a vilified god/satan figure-- who happens to be the god of fertility/sex and knows the secret of life. He's sort of a martyr.
So I guess her message is sex is good and stop vilifying it, but it doesn't improve her novels, LOL.
Now you all know why I asked Kat to read it :D. What a review! (sorry, Kat, but you just...um...do it so much better!)@Sam msg 28;...you blood-lovin', gore fiend. Upset your appetite, huh? :D
@New_user msg 16;...you and Kat aren't the only ones.
Just how much tortoise sex does this book have exactly?
OMG. Did Robert Heinlein finally get his brain transplanted into a woman's body, as he always threatened he would? It would explain a lot. Though, you're right, maybe a hot female tortoise would be even better - it'd kind of combine the plots of I Will Fear No Evil and Starship Troopers. A fan-fic crying out to be written!
Manny wrote: Though, you're right, maybe a hot female tortoise would be even better - it'd kind of combine the plots of I Will Fear No Evil and Starship Troopers. A fan-fic crying out to be written! "Manny - waiting for your fanfiction! LOL!
Its true I guess that not every book is for every reader, but its seems like this review focuses on three things to the exclusion of everything else:1. The novel has a lot of BDSM.
2. Teens are involved in sex
3. Some of the characters involved use pain for sexual purposes.
Its true. All of those items are present in the novel. Its equally true that many of those items are not found in traditional fantasy.
Its also a well written, interesting, richly textured novel, with a very interesting central character, who uses her gifts from her goddess as a spy and as a warrior for her country. Its not just the usual fantasy novel, and its certainly not for every reader.
Phaedre is not just a princess born in a tower who suddenly wakes up one day and takes a sword and goes on to become a prime warrior. She is a courtesan, an avatar of the goddess of pleasure and pain.
Is it a nice world. Not really. Is there a lot of sexual content to the novel. No doubt. can that be a turn off. Obviously from these reviews and comments, it can be.
However, if you are willing to try to read something outside your comfort zone you might give it a try.
Sam wrote: ".... whips and chaines. I'll read it. Just so I can then write a review..."It was the scene with the glass shards that did what was left of my head in...not to put too fine a point on it.
I think Kat stresses more on kids being groomed for BDSM sex rather than what you've listed, Jeffrey.
Okay, now I'm scared to read this book! *hides*
Jeffrey, I did mention that I loved the atmosphere, the political intrigue and the writing.However, Phedre is an unreliable narrator. You say that she is an avatar to the goddess of pain. Actually, she is a victim. Sexualizing young children is a form of abuse and from what I read she spent a great deal of time trying to defend and protect her abusers.
If you have read Four Ways to Forgiveness then you will know what I mean when I say that a slave has no ability to consent to sex. They are property and sexual freedom is just as important and personal freedom.
I don't believe that I have narrow reading comforts. As I said, I've read and enjoyed BDSM before and I have an associate who is a practitioner. This is not BDSM. This is just a wank fantasy of abuse as far as I could see. That I don't endorse.
Manny - I can't imagine what kind of woman Robert Heinlein would be! Probably something very similar to me only not quite as slutty!
Kat, I thought of "A Woman's Liberation" as well reading your review. A sexuality forced onto someone as a child is not a healthy sexuality.
I am not against you disliking a book and your negative review of the book. I happened to like the book when I read it.I am troubled that many of the readers of your review are focusing on children sexuality when I feel that its not a significant part of the novel. For instance there is your followup to your review
"Actually, she is a victim. Sexualizing young children is a form of abuse and from what I read she spent a great deal of time trying to defend and protect her abusers."
My feeling is the character has to overcome what happens to her.
And the world is very well conceived and conceptualized in a way that is not done often in fantasy. The character is very novel. The sexual overtones of the book are very new. Its not about her defending her "abusers" What it turns out to be is she has to find her way in this world and eventually does. Its a far cry from the John Norman's Gor novels, which did enslave women.
Instead its a very stylized novel about a different kind of heroine.
It seemed to me that your review and other comments herein about the sexuality specifically talking about children was a tad unfair to the author and the world therein, and of course others who did not read the book, then focus solely on that aspect of your review -- the charge of sexuality with children and take that to be the be all and end all of your review.
No one especially not me is defending sex with children, its disgusting, but the book has to be read in its entirety not one section or another out of context.
I am not the only person, of course who liked the novel. Many mainstream reviewers found it very good as well. See for instance:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/prod...
In which there are starred reviews from Publisher's Weekly, Booklist and the Library Journal none of which are going to recommend a book that condones children sexuality.
Anyway enough about this book. On to the next
I fully understand your opinion.I just can't read a book and enjoy it to the exclusion of the sex invovled.
Anyway, enough of that. People will still read the book if they want to!
Kat, you didn't read further into the book...but it's quite interesting, in the light of your comments regarding the sexualisation of children and in the case of Phaedre, who takes the submissive role as well as expect/accept pain as a result of her 'marked' nature, because it's a power hungry, domineering, manipulative and truly bad-bottomed character that she falls for...isn't that what happens in passive/addictive personalities?
Well, but Melisande is not the only person she falls for, and she does so when she's pretty immature still. And I think even she recognizes that it's mostly hormones and their respective godly influences drawing them together. S
P
O
I
L
E
R
Her main love interest in the series is noble, devoted, and respectful to her.
I saw Phedre's young age (at the beginning of her training) as typical of a medieval or pseudo-medieval world. It's not something I condone; it's just that things like that happened back then--girls married off at 12, that kind of thing.
Er, Kelly, I hate to break it to you, but the whole married off by twelve thing is so not even close to medieval. It's more a Rococo thing. You might see, say, like a princess or prince betrothed at a young age, but outside of special circumstances marriage still took place later--20 would be a good average.
(Sorry, Kat, but there's so many misconceptions about the medieval period in fantasy, I just couldn't help myself -.-;)
OK, I stand corrected. I had been thinking there had been a lot of young marriages, but I was thinking later, now that you mention it, and often it would take a while for them to consummate it anyway. And yeah, I should have specified that the crazier ages were mostly the nobility. :)
After this, I must follow your reviews. This was priceless.
I keep trying and trying to get through this book because my friends loved it but I just can't. Can't stomach it. It is about time I completely abandoned it I think. Your review helped with that decision. Thanks.
