Fionnuala’s review of Ordinary Saints > Likes and Comments

Everything always goes back to the Odyssey, said he whose parents had named after a Greek hero 😉

I love this incidental reference to the Odyssey! Also this book looks like something I would enjoy so glad to have seen your review.

Ulysse wrote: "Everything always goes back to the Odyssey, said he whose parents had named him after a Greek hero 😉"

Your parents must have been a little Homer-haunted too, Ulysse!
Think if they'd called you Hamlet instead…

Books holding hands again, Fionnuala:-) Oh and I've just come across this: The Odyssey: A Modern Sequel. I've thought of you for whatever reason:-) Maybe someone has already pointed it out as the author is a greek himself.I think the author has won a Nobel at some stage but I am not sure.

Suzy wrote: "I love this incidental reference to the Odyssey! Also this book looks like something I would enjoy so glad to have seen your review."

I didn't expect to find a reference to Homer in this book either, Suzy!
You might like this novel. It deals with Catholic Church issues in Ireland in the 1990s—but similar to the ones in the US too—as in the Church feeling the brunt of people's anger at scandals being covered up, and deciding to do something to win the people back.

Katia wrote: "Books holding hands again, Fionnuala:-) Oh and I've just come across this: The Odyssey: A Modern Sequel. I've thought of you for whatever reason:-) Maybe someone has already pointed it out..."

You can imagine my pleasure when one of Homer's books showed up, Katia!
I hadn't heard of that modern sequel. Hmmm....

So some good can come of bookgroups then!
It is still your summer of homer though

Lovely review, Fionnuala. I love the odyssey tie in.

The Odyssey is such a touchstone, powerful here in what sounds like the context of loss and isolation? Too fear being a cliche is to remind oneself of being part of something large and populated and all-too-common, even in moments of feeling unlike and disconnected from others? Or am I just projecting?

'A country where the past, however terrible, was more comfortable than the future.'... Beutifully said. I'm afraid this may be said about quite a few countries nowadays. I hope I'm wrong...

Apparently, even ordinary saints can be quite fascinating, Fionnuala.

Ordinary saints is an odd phrase. The whole point of a saint is that they are extraordinary in some way, but if you want to challenge the ideology of an established church...

Have you read Joyce's Ulysses? I felt like I was inside an Irish hallucination of Homer...

I wonder if "Spot the Odyssey" could become game for kids on long drives.

I agree with Noam. That sentence about countries and the relative comfort they offer in their past and future respectively really is beautiful, apt and heartbreaking…

One thing about the Greeks Heidegger already knew by the way: there is no point in trying to escape it, the greek spirit is like the horizon: it is ff-ing everywhere! 😉

Jan-Maat wrote: "So some good can come of bookgroups then!
It is still your summer of homer though"

Jan-Maat wrote: "Ordinary saints is an odd phrase. The whole point of a saint is that they are extraordinary in some way, but if you want to challenge the ideology of an established church..."

It's still Homer season for sure, Jann. My hand has to be guided by some outside force before it will pick anything that is not Homer related. But then, what a thrill when he is mentioned out of the wine-dark blue!
Yes, the words 'ordinary saints' had me puzzled too. There were two ways I interpreted it in the end: first that the Church in the 90s and 2000s wanted to find ordinary Catholics who'd died young (ones who might have a social media profile) and elevate them gradually to sainthood in order to create a positive profile for the institution itself. Of course, miracles had to be associated with them in order for this to happen, so they had to have been caring individuals in their short lives. This was the case of the narrator's brother.
The other meaning I took from it is explained by the narrator's thought of how she chooses to remember her brother: 'Not the saint but the ordinary man he was supposed to live on to be.' She had rejected the whole 'saint' business from the beginning anyway.

Antoinette wrote: "Lovely review, Fionnuala. I love the odyssey tie in."

There are so many dead young men in Homer, Antoinette, and we are reminded often of the grieving of their families, that it was not at all out of place in this book. Though it was unexpected.

Alison wrote: "The Odyssey is such a touchstone, powerful here in what sounds like the context of loss and isolation? To fear being a cliche is to remind oneself of being part of something large and populated and all-too-common, even in moments of feeling unlike and disconnected from others? .."

You've caught something I missed, Alison—because I was too caught up with the narrator surprising me by mentioning the author I'm currently preoccupied with. But yes, she permanently feels unlike others, and disconnected from them too—even choosing to read Homer on holiday instead of something contemporary cuts her off further. But at the same time, she revels in being unlike others because she despises everything she believes they stand for, so she is critical of herself for reading Homer in Athens like others may have done before her. She is only eighteen in this episode though, so she still has lots to learn and unlearn.

This sounds like exactly the kind of novel I'd appreciate, even though I haven't kept as close a connection to Homer as you have. My own recent brush with his world was through Christopher Nolan's latest film, The Odyssey, which I found utterly enthralling. It reminded me how enduring and adaptable Homer's stories are, still inspiring new interpretations nearly three millennia later...

Noam wrote: "'A country where the past, however terrible, was more comfortable than the future.'... Beutifully said. I'm afraid this may be said about quite a few countries nowadays. I hope I'm wrong..."

Don't so many people cling on to the past and fear change, Noam? The narrator in this book represents change in that she's a gay non-believer in a Catholic society. No one wants to know about her lack of belief nor about her sexual orientation. They would like to sweep her under the carpet. It's ironic because they've already swept all the church-related scandals under the same carpet! That's the ultimate insult for her.

At first the title struck me as quite ominous or ironic, but from your comments, I am relieved I was wrong, Fionnuala. A good thing a book you didn't choose yourself turned out worthwhile - and had that surprise Homeric present waiting for you to find it in store too :).

Lisa wrote: "Have you read Joyce's Ulysses? I felt like I was inside an Irish hallucination of Homer..."

Ah, great description, Lisa. I hadn't read Homer when I read Joyce's Ulysses so while I did find it hallucinatory at times, I didn't know the episodes that had triggered the hallucinations. I do remember the snot-green sea though—an unpalatable variation of the wine-dark version!

Let's face it, Fionnuala, Homer (and Euripides) found a too perfect reader in you to let it go. We can call it a 'coincidence' but they know better, their magic wand seems at play here :-) I look forward to your review of that other book you are currently reading. It sounds as a fascinating exploration of how Homer echoed through the centuries of other poets.

Nick wrote: "I wonder if "Spot the Odyssey" could become game for kids on long drives."

It could become a game in my house anyway, Nick—one that risks being played well into the future—'the sister of the past' as Joyce says in Ulysses!

Jeroen wrote: "I agree with Noam. That sentence about countries and the relative comfort they offer in their past and future respectively really is beautiful, apt and heartbreaking…
One thing about the Greeks Heidegger already knew by the way: there is no point in trying to escape it, the greek spirit is like the horizon: it is ff-ing everywhere!..."

Heartbreaking for sure, Jeroen. But Ireland has moved on well since the time of this novel—possibly faster than many other places—and it has shrugged off a lot of shibboleths while taking on other practices. We'll have to wait and see the value of the change.
And how about my experience overlapping with Heidegger's;-)

Thank goodness my parents didn’t call me Hamlet! I do prefer Shakespeare to Homer though 😉

Enjoying the dialogue! Thank you ☺️

Homer appears to be everywhere, Fionnuala. It’s a sign for you! And for Ulysse…

I would listen to you lead a reading group based on Homer, Fionnuala. It’s been great following your reading journey. And I hear you, if it wasn’t for Goodreads, there are some books I wouldn’t have read. Thank goodness also for book groups. This seems like a lovely read.

Fionnuala wrote: "Don't so many people cling on to the past and fear change, Noam? The narrator in this book represents change in that she's a gay non-believer in a Catholic society. No one wants to know ..."

How sad, Fionnuala. I recently read an interview with the journalist Matti Friedman in which he said antisemitism is a way to explain the world to stupid people. That’s fascinating and quite provocative. I would rather say simple people, instead of stupid. Paraphrasing on that, I guess sweeping everything under the carpet is a way for simple people to deal with the world, or rather avoid dealing with it… Anyhow, I feel sympathy for the narrator in this book. I can imagine she experienced this as an insult…

Dolors wrote: "This sounds like exactly the kind of novel I'd appreciate, even though I haven't kept as close a connection to Homer as you have. My own recent brush with his world was through Christopher Nolan's ..."

No Homer knowledge is required for this book, Dolors—though I do think you'd like it a lot. The narrator is a very smart and well-read young woman and she describes her 'odyssey' away from parents, home, and country, very well. I suspect the author is also young as this is a first novel but the writing is very assured and flows extremely well. I hope many people will read it.
And you're right about Homer's legacy. It's unbeatable.

Ilse wrote: "At first the title struck me as quite ominous or ironic, but from your comments, I am relieved I was wrong, Fionnuala. A good thing a book you didn't choose yourself turned out worthwhile - and had that surprise Homeric present waiting for you to find..."

I'm still not entirely sure about what the author intended with the word 'ordinary' in the title, Ilse. But the family in the story were very 'ordinary', at least for Ireland in the 1990s. And yes, I'm always surprised and relieved when a bookgroup choice, one I'd never choose myself, turns out to be very good—but it's true that my bookgroup is getting better and better at choosing books.
And how am I going to cope in the future when I don't find any Homer mentions in what I read;-)

Vesna wrote: "Let's face it, Fionnuala, Homer (and Euripides) found a too perfect reader in you to let it go. We can call it a 'coincidence' but they know better, their magic wand seems at play here..."

That's it, Vesna!
And I think Euripides must have been a bit Homer-haunted too—though he's hardly mentioned in the Homer-Haunted book I mentioned. When I finished The Iliad, which is actually unfinished, and couldn't get the end of the Trojan war out of mind, wanting to hear more about the women left behind in Troy, Euripides was waiting for me with his series of plays about those same Trojan Women. I feel he completed The Iliad for me!
No ordinary saint was Euripides (saints and scholars are always classed together in Ireland;-)

Ulysse wrote: "Thank goodness my parents didn’t call me Hamlet! I do prefer Shakespeare to Homer though 😉"

Shakespeare probably looked into Chapman's Homer now and again, Ulysse. Just sayin...

Noreen wrote: "Enjoying the dialogue! Thank you ☺️"

Great to hear, Noreen.

David wrote: "Homer appears to be everywhere, Fionnuala. It’s a sign for you! And for Ulysse…"

It's my year of rest and relaxation in the company of the ancients, David—no drugs needed but literature! And I've still to review Apuleius, and whatever will I have left to say about Apollonius whom I'm currently reading...

Cheryl wrote: "I would listen to you lead a reading group based on Homer, Fionnuala. It’s been great following your reading journey. And I hear you, if it wasn’t for Goodreads, there are some books I wouldn’t have read. Thank goodness also for book groups..."

Thanks for your faith in me, Cheryl. I don't know about leading a group but I do love a discussion with other readers, and that's what I get here in the comment threads. Unfortunately no one has commented here who has read Ordinary Saints though—and as it turned out I missed the discussion in my real life bookgroup. I hope some of my GR friends read it so I can discuss it eventually.

Noam wrote: "How sad, Fionnuala. I recently read an interview with the journalist Matti Friedman in which he said antisemitism is a way to explain the world to stupid people. That’s fascinating and quite provocative. I would rather say simple people, instead of stupid. Paraphrasing on that, I guess sweeping everything under the carpet is a way for simple people to deal with the world, or rather avoid dealing with it..."

Aren't there are so many expressions in English for what people do when they can't face up to uncomfortable truths, Noam—and I'd count myself among them sometimes—expressions such as turning a blind eye, burying one's head in the sand, turning a deaf ear, ignoring the writing on the wall, sweeping stuff under the carpet. Those expressions are so prevalent that denial is as if built into people's behaviour. And Jews have definitely suffered more than most from people's' ability to shut their eyes.

Fionnuala wrote: "Shakespeare probably looked into Chapman's Homer now and again, Ulysse. Just sayin..."

He probably did, Fionnuala. He was just looking for a good plot and all he got out of the Illiad and the Odyssey was Troilus and Cressida, an okay play. I think Shakespeare was more into Plutarch.

Yes, Ulysse, Plutarch is more likely indeed.
But still, Hamlet is a bit like Telemachus—and while his mother hasn't married any of her suitors, they do try to murder his father and himself. And then there's Orestes, and his father Agamemnon murdered by the father's cousin, aided by Orestes' mother who has married him...

I never thought of it that way, Fionnuala, but you’re right, Hamlet is a twisted reworking of the Odyssey. Now that I think of it there is a long discussion of Hamlet in Joyce’s Ulysses. Was that in the Telemachus chapter? You see what I mean about everything coming back to my name? 😉

So right, Ulysse!

Your book journeys never fail to enchant me, Fionnuala. There's always a nugget of surprise in there :) :)

Glad to give you a surprise and a smile, Candi!