Gary’s review of The Republic > Likes and Comments

Superb review, Gary. Full of scholarly insights and fully supported opinions.

Steve wrote: "Superb review, Gary. Full of scholarly insights and fully supported opinions."

Thanks, Steve! I think The Republic is important because it implies the conflict between a philosopher's Utopian ideal and the real. One person's "idea" of heaven can be another person's hell. And when a group of individuals gain power and try to impose their will on the masses in the form of a Utopian ideal we learn from history that you get guillotines, Gulags and Gestapos. To paraphrase an old adage often attributed to Robespierre, it takes a lot of broken "eggs" to make the Utopian omelette.

I'm sure that conflict you mention plays out every day and everywhere. I like your metaphor, too, as well as Gary's grievous gallows-like alliteration.

Seems to me comparing anyone to Hitler undermines an argument. For instance, Picasso shared with Hitler an urge to paint, and an urge toward radical change. (Of course, Hitler hated Modernism, but...) As for Plato, there's so much historical context, the Peloponnesian War ending in the defeat of Athens' Republic by Sparta's military tyrrany (more Hitlerian than Plato's Republic?)...then Socrates's possible accession to the Thirty Tyrants, and later, Plato's teaching Aristotle, who taught Alexander, and died the year after his young student Emperor died near Bagdad. (Could be off.) I admit to preferring Plato's Socratic Dialogs to the Republic, but I really don't turn to either regularly, possibly because I don't read Greek, and have never trusted to translations for my favorite readings. I might argue that the US Constitution is a Utopian ideal which did NOT produce guillotines--and this really pisses off the French to this day, who must be reveling in our current President to justify their long-held sense of superiority. Weren't Adams and Jefferson and Quincy Adams etc all a "group of individuals imposing their will on the masses" for a Utopian ideal--and now, people with guns are citing those Utopian ideals with a slight twist. You might call it a Platonic twist, but I'd say it's more Robespierrian. Well, I ramble...I really should look at the Republic again. I rather liked it when I read it, under my Freshman Humanities professor, the Virgil translator Rolfe Humphries.

Alan wrote: "Seems to me comparing anyone to Hitler undermines an argument. For instance, Picasso shared with Hitler an urge to paint, and an urge toward radical change. (Of course, Hitler hated Modernism, but...."

I don't think I compared Plato to Hitler; I compared The Republic to Mein Kampf as two examples of books that, if followed literally, are prescriptions for totalitarianism. I also tried to make a distinction based on time and place, ancient Greece versus Germany between the World Wars, and Plato's good intentions versus Hitler's evil ones. However, I'll admit that bringing Hitler into any discussion does tend to undermine an argument, if it's an unfair comparison.

I don't think the US Constitution is in any sense Utopian. It's pragmatic and the product of experience, heated debate and compromise. It's been amended many times and was severely tested, and subsequently amended, following a bloody Civil War. Moreover, it's been broadly, some would argue too broadly, interpreted by the majorities on any number of Supreme Courts. Nevertheless, it's survived and, in my opinion, is still quite healthy and even robust after more than two centuries, which is saying something.

All your points are well-taken, but I'm still of the opinion that the U.S. Republic, messy as it can be, is still about as good as it gets. As for Plato's Republic, I think it's a nice "thought experiment" for those who prefer the ideal to the real. And, like all Plato's dialogues, it's very well written, though I don't read Greek and have only read Plato in translation.

Thanks for your thorough response.

Alan wrote: "Thanks for your thorough response."

And thank you for your very thoughtful and well-informed comment.

Marita wrote: "Gary, thank you for your excellent analysis."

Thanks, Marita. The Republic's one of those books that's stuck in my mind for five decades. Some of those ideas raised by Socrates/ Plato have wormed their way into my own writing, so for better or worse those ancient Greek philosophers have had their influence on me. ;)

Marita wrote: "As they are wont to do... :-)"

Indeed. You opened your review of The Hanged Man with a quote: "Is perception reality, Etienne?" a line inspired by Plato's Allegory of the Cave. ;)

Gary wrote: "Marita wrote: "As they are wont to do... :-)"

Indeed. You opened your review of The Hanged Man with a quote: "Is perception reality, Etienne?" a line inspired by Plato's Allegory of the Cave. ;)"

As with many GR reviews, they spark a great discussion.

HBalikov wrote: "Gary wrote: "Marita wrote: "As they are wont to do... :-)"

Indeed. You opened your review of The Hanged Man with a quote: "Is perception reality, Etienne?" a line inspired by Plato's Allegory of t..."

Thanks! I've enjoyed reading your reviews. Always perceptive. ;)

Would you mind linking this speech by Robespierre, Gary? I'm keenly interested by that!

P.E. wrote: "Would you mind linking this speech by Robespierre, Gary? I'm keenly interested by that!"

GR isn't allowing the link, P.E. It must be a new policy re: adding links to comments. I understand GR's concern for security reasons.

"For the safety of our members, links to other sites are not allowed in comments. Please edit your comment and try again."

If you Google Robespierre "The Republic of Virtue" (1794) you will find reputable sites that provide the entire speech. It's not long, but I think it gives you the gist of his political thought.

Thanks!

Very enlightening review. Thank you.

I'm glad this older review came across my feed, Gary. Fascinating stuff. I'll have to return to it when I'm coming to this work myself :)

Thanks. I'm surprised folks still read my old reviews. ;)