Lois’s answer to “Was there a particular catalyst for turning Ivan from something of a joke (though always a likable/…” > Likes and Comments
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As I recall, Ivan was often playing the idiot in hopes of avoiding all the crazy stuff that always followed anything Miles did. I didn't feel at all surprised to see he had his own personality when he was out of Miles' aura.
Oh. It is not my term, but I don't recall where I heard it. The idea is there are two kinds of characters that should be likable: Inspirational and Aspirational. The former are ones that are underdogs that fight despite having no expectation of winning. Katniss is a good example. So is Batman.
Aspirational characters are one that people should strive to be. These are people who are, to be frank, are better people than you(or me, or anyone) could realistically hope to be. Like Superman, or Captain America, or, to go closer to home, Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan. And Ivan, once Gregor put him in a place to dodge the throne.
Am I wrong in thinking that it was intentional that at least some of Ivan being an idiot was supposed to be him pretending to protect the people he loved (Miles, Aral, Gregor)?
Ivan's blandness was certainly intentional and conscious from any time after The Warrior's Apprentice forward. Before that, it was there but less conscious, inculcated by all those memorial ceremonies for his father he attended as a child. Revenge was not a possible response -- "My name is Inigo Montoya..." etc. -- as all of that had also been accomplished long ago. That left Object Lesson.
The first person Ivan protected with his mode was of course Ivan; those he loved came along for the ride, and welcome enough.
Ta, L.
Ivan has always been my favorite character, I was glad to see he finally got his own story! Thanks from Seattle newly relocated from Ohio.
For me, he ceased being thatidiotivan when Mark found him crying in the garden in Mirror Dance. Loved him having his own story.
I'm with Gabi though I think that curve started with the Cetagandan kitten plant. Just a note for Lois, I love that the "peripheral" characters are getting some more time. First we had Ivan, now Cordelia and Jole. I can't pretend to speak for everyone but I think that with so many truly great characters scattered about, a few more short stories, or long ones for that matter, should be in order. So much fodder, such a wide landscape. Thank you either way!
The first time I saw the heroic Ivan was at the end of "Warriors Apprentice" when the villain drew a weapon in the presence of the Emperor. All of the assembled counts moved towards that villain but Ivan tackled him first. Ivan was always an action hero --- not my favorite kind of character, although the reluctant part did make him more likable. Also, I always felt that when action was needed, he could reliably outshine his cousin, it was the realm where Miles didn't beat him. Why learn to think when Miles would do that better? But Miles was no competition with action or women so those were the realms Ivan restricted himself to.
I am currently in the process of reading the stories in publication order, so I wanted to mention that the non-Vorkosigan characters have had their own stories almost from the first - Ethan of Athos with Elli Quinn as the lead character.
For me, Miles summed up Ivan in A Civil Campaign. (possibly somewhat misquoted since I'm not going to go look it up) "You told Mark and not me?""I can trust Mark to do what I tell him. I can only trust you to do what you think is right" But then, I recognized Ivan right away because I have a brother who spent a great deal of his adult life working hard to appear LESS brilliant, LESS capable, and LESS reliable than he actually is.
Ivan grew. In Warrior's Apprentice, I think, when Miles is just growing his wings, Elena asks him who will govern Vorkosigan district. Miles reply, that Ivan was his heir. Elena responded that he was a jerk and a creep and had tried to feel her up in the past. Which in my books is sexual harassment. Which Ivan would not have done later. But he had. So, he grew. And In Ivan's book, it said that he was also shielded by his own clan, not just Aral.
“his hidden shallows...” bwahahahaha!! :D
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Carol
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Sep 08, 2015 08:55AM
As I recall, Ivan was often playing the idiot in hopes of avoiding all the crazy stuff that always followed anything Miles did. I didn't feel at all surprised to see he had his own personality when he was out of Miles' aura.
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Oh. It is not my term, but I don't recall where I heard it. The idea is there are two kinds of characters that should be likable: Inspirational and Aspirational. The former are ones that are underdogs that fight despite having no expectation of winning. Katniss is a good example. So is Batman.Aspirational characters are one that people should strive to be. These are people who are, to be frank, are better people than you(or me, or anyone) could realistically hope to be. Like Superman, or Captain America, or, to go closer to home, Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan. And Ivan, once Gregor put him in a place to dodge the throne.
Am I wrong in thinking that it was intentional that at least some of Ivan being an idiot was supposed to be him pretending to protect the people he loved (Miles, Aral, Gregor)?
Ivan's blandness was certainly intentional and conscious from any time after The Warrior's Apprentice forward. Before that, it was there but less conscious, inculcated by all those memorial ceremonies for his father he attended as a child. Revenge was not a possible response -- "My name is Inigo Montoya..." etc. -- as all of that had also been accomplished long ago. That left Object Lesson.The first person Ivan protected with his mode was of course Ivan; those he loved came along for the ride, and welcome enough.
Ta, L.
Ivan has always been my favorite character, I was glad to see he finally got his own story! Thanks from Seattle newly relocated from Ohio.
For me, he ceased being thatidiotivan when Mark found him crying in the garden in Mirror Dance. Loved him having his own story.
I'm with Gabi though I think that curve started with the Cetagandan kitten plant. Just a note for Lois, I love that the "peripheral" characters are getting some more time. First we had Ivan, now Cordelia and Jole. I can't pretend to speak for everyone but I think that with so many truly great characters scattered about, a few more short stories, or long ones for that matter, should be in order. So much fodder, such a wide landscape. Thank you either way!
The first time I saw the heroic Ivan was at the end of "Warriors Apprentice" when the villain drew a weapon in the presence of the Emperor. All of the assembled counts moved towards that villain but Ivan tackled him first. Ivan was always an action hero --- not my favorite kind of character, although the reluctant part did make him more likable. Also, I always felt that when action was needed, he could reliably outshine his cousin, it was the realm where Miles didn't beat him. Why learn to think when Miles would do that better? But Miles was no competition with action or women so those were the realms Ivan restricted himself to.
I am currently in the process of reading the stories in publication order, so I wanted to mention that the non-Vorkosigan characters have had their own stories almost from the first - Ethan of Athos with Elli Quinn as the lead character.
For me, Miles summed up Ivan in A Civil Campaign. (possibly somewhat misquoted since I'm not going to go look it up) "You told Mark and not me?""I can trust Mark to do what I tell him. I can only trust you to do what you think is right" But then, I recognized Ivan right away because I have a brother who spent a great deal of his adult life working hard to appear LESS brilliant, LESS capable, and LESS reliable than he actually is.
Ivan grew. In Warrior's Apprentice, I think, when Miles is just growing his wings, Elena asks him who will govern Vorkosigan district. Miles reply, that Ivan was his heir. Elena responded that he was a jerk and a creep and had tried to feel her up in the past. Which in my books is sexual harassment. Which Ivan would not have done later. But he had. So, he grew. And In Ivan's book, it said that he was also shielded by his own clan, not just Aral.
“his hidden shallows...” bwahahahaha!! :D
