Péter’s answer to “You say that subjunctive or unreal past remain unchanged in indirect speech while other such gramma…” > Likes and Comments
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Yes of course, 1. " The Comprehensive Grammer of the Eng. Grammer" by Qirk, Greenbaum, Leech and Svartvik ( Pearson Pub. ) under the heading "14.34 " The Subjunctive and Modal Auxiliaries in the indirect speech " and 2. " Practical Eng. Usage' by Michael Swan ( 3 rd Ed. OUP ) Conditional at no 5 of 278
Dear Muhammed,
Thank you for the details.
Michael Swan says that the change you refer to is optional, while A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language emphasises that the past subjunctive is backshifted to hypothetical past perfective if there is a change in time reference.
If you go to Indirect speech » Changes in indirect speech » Conditionals and unreal tenses in indirect speech in my book, you can find an example for this case:
"Catherine: If I lost my job, I would be in serious trouble. (referring to a possible future situation)
Catherine said that if she lost her job, she would be in serious trouble. (the reported words are true; she might still lose her job)
Catherine said that if she had lost her job, she would have been in serious trouble. (the reported words are out-of-date; it's not possible that she will lose her job)"
I believe the main idea here is that the change occurs if the reported words are out-of-date (there is a change in time reference).
I hope this is helpful.
Thanks a lot sir, 1. I have no confusion regarding the example you have cited ( Conditional type 2 ) 2. Is " I LIVED " in " I wish I lived in mountains " an example of past subjunctive ? If yes, then it should be changed ( back shifted ) if there is a change in time reference.
I sincerely thank and highly appreciate your effort in form of your book and this extra pain you take to explain such topics.
Yes, the verb "lived" in "I wish I lived in the mountains" is a past subjunctive form. However, the past subjunctive after "wish / if only", "would rather / would sooner", "it's (high) time" and "as if / as though" does not change in indirect speech:
Susan: I wish I lived in the mountains.
Susan said she wished she lived in the mountains.
"She wished she had lived in the mountains" means she regretted that she hadn't lived there before.
You can read more about this point in A Practical English Grammar by A. J. Thomson and A. V. Martinet (310 A).
Thanks . Is past subjunctive after words you have enlisted different from what is mentioned under 14.24 or 14.23 in The CGEL.The CGEL under 14.34 states past subjunctive ( 14.24) and hypothetical past (14.23) are changed if a change in time reference.
Some grammars make a distinction between the past subjunctive and hypothetical/unreal past, while others don't. The two are similar in that they both refer to hypothetical/unreal present situations:
He acts as if he were the boss. (He is not the boss.)
If I knew the answer, I'd tell you. (I don't know the answer.)
CGEL 14.34 does say that the past subjunctive or hypothetical past is backshifted to hypothetical past perfective if there is a change in time reference. Interestingly, the two examples given there are only of conditional type 2. I have checked various grammar books, but I haven't found any examples of hypothetical past after "wish / if only", "would rather / would sooner", "it's (high) time" or "as if / as though" changing to the past perfect in indirect speech. (If you have, please let me know.)
The change makes sense with the second conditional because it reflects the speaker's interpretation of the change in the context. Conditional type 2 changes to conditional type 3 if what was an unreal or hypothetical present situation at the time of the original utterance is viewed as an unreal past situation at the time of reporting (something that did not happen and is not relevant to the present moment):
'If he were here, he would vote for the motion,' she said.
She said that if he had been there, he would have voted for the motion.
(CGEL 14.34)
If such question arises in public\ competitive exam , what should we rely upon.
"Appearing as it does in this chapter , it deals with the problems of women ." What's the simplified meaning of this sentence ? " as " in this sentence functions as an adverb of reason , concession or manner / degree ?
I would rely on what I wrote in my previous post.
Thanks. And what about the other sentence I have posted. Please oblige .
I would need to know the context to understand what "it" in the main clause refers to.
" It "in this sentence , as I perceive , might be referring to some particular para or point which could be dealing with the problem of women.
I'm not sure I can confidently answer your question without knowing the context. However, in my understanding, "as it does" is used for stylistic reasons and adds emphasis here. If you omit it, the present participle clause still makes sense.
You might want to ask a native speaker about that, though.
Regarding my question on Nov 6, Would you please bother to go through an article in "The Indian Express " page no. 10, under the caption " Being SMART, after Uber, in the first para line 14th, " Coming as it does.......
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Nov 02, 2014 04:09AM
Yes of course, 1. " The Comprehensive Grammer of the Eng. Grammer" by Qirk, Greenbaum, Leech and Svartvik ( Pearson Pub. ) under the heading "14.34 " The Subjunctive and Modal Auxiliaries in the indirect speech " and 2. " Practical Eng. Usage' by Michael Swan ( 3 rd Ed. OUP ) Conditional at no 5 of 278
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Dear Muhammed,Thank you for the details.
Michael Swan says that the change you refer to is optional, while A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language emphasises that the past subjunctive is backshifted to hypothetical past perfective if there is a change in time reference.
If you go to Indirect speech » Changes in indirect speech » Conditionals and unreal tenses in indirect speech in my book, you can find an example for this case:
"Catherine: If I lost my job, I would be in serious trouble. (referring to a possible future situation)
Catherine said that if she lost her job, she would be in serious trouble. (the reported words are true; she might still lose her job)
Catherine said that if she had lost her job, she would have been in serious trouble. (the reported words are out-of-date; it's not possible that she will lose her job)"
I believe the main idea here is that the change occurs if the reported words are out-of-date (there is a change in time reference).
I hope this is helpful.
Thanks a lot sir, 1. I have no confusion regarding the example you have cited ( Conditional type 2 ) 2. Is " I LIVED " in " I wish I lived in mountains " an example of past subjunctive ? If yes, then it should be changed ( back shifted ) if there is a change in time reference.I sincerely thank and highly appreciate your effort in form of your book and this extra pain you take to explain such topics.
Yes, the verb "lived" in "I wish I lived in the mountains" is a past subjunctive form. However, the past subjunctive after "wish / if only", "would rather / would sooner", "it's (high) time" and "as if / as though" does not change in indirect speech:Susan: I wish I lived in the mountains.
Susan said she wished she lived in the mountains.
"She wished she had lived in the mountains" means she regretted that she hadn't lived there before.
You can read more about this point in A Practical English Grammar by A. J. Thomson and A. V. Martinet (310 A).
Thanks . Is past subjunctive after words you have enlisted different from what is mentioned under 14.24 or 14.23 in The CGEL.The CGEL under 14.34 states past subjunctive ( 14.24) and hypothetical past (14.23) are changed if a change in time reference.
Some grammars make a distinction between the past subjunctive and hypothetical/unreal past, while others don't. The two are similar in that they both refer to hypothetical/unreal present situations:He acts as if he were the boss. (He is not the boss.)
If I knew the answer, I'd tell you. (I don't know the answer.)
CGEL 14.34 does say that the past subjunctive or hypothetical past is backshifted to hypothetical past perfective if there is a change in time reference. Interestingly, the two examples given there are only of conditional type 2. I have checked various grammar books, but I haven't found any examples of hypothetical past after "wish / if only", "would rather / would sooner", "it's (high) time" or "as if / as though" changing to the past perfect in indirect speech. (If you have, please let me know.)
The change makes sense with the second conditional because it reflects the speaker's interpretation of the change in the context. Conditional type 2 changes to conditional type 3 if what was an unreal or hypothetical present situation at the time of the original utterance is viewed as an unreal past situation at the time of reporting (something that did not happen and is not relevant to the present moment):
'If he were here, he would vote for the motion,' she said.
She said that if he had been there, he would have voted for the motion.
(CGEL 14.34)
If such question arises in public\ competitive exam , what should we rely upon."Appearing as it does in this chapter , it deals with the problems of women ." What's the simplified meaning of this sentence ? " as " in this sentence functions as an adverb of reason , concession or manner / degree ?
I would rely on what I wrote in my previous post.
Thanks. And what about the other sentence I have posted. Please oblige .
I would need to know the context to understand what "it" in the main clause refers to.
" It "in this sentence , as I perceive , might be referring to some particular para or point which could be dealing with the problem of women.
I'm not sure I can confidently answer your question without knowing the context. However, in my understanding, "as it does" is used for stylistic reasons and adds emphasis here. If you omit it, the present participle clause still makes sense.You might want to ask a native speaker about that, though.
Regarding my question on Nov 6, Would you please bother to go through an article in "The Indian Express " page no. 10, under the caption " Being SMART, after Uber, in the first para line 14th, " Coming as it does.......
