Dolors’s Comments (group member since Jan 04, 2014)

Dolors’s comments from the The Fyodor Dostoyevsky Group group.

It happened exactly the same to me Garima! I had no idea whatsoever that saintly figures were supposed not to decompose as proof of their divinity. What most struck me about this section was the last chapter Cana of Galilee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cana, which apart from being full of religious symbolism as how the first miracle of transforming water into wine was performed which could be linked to the concept of "Incorruptibility", was Alyosha's spiritual transformation and his resolution to spread Zosima's belief in the goodness of people. I found that last chapter proved to be a great counter argument to Ivan's cold skepticism presented in his dissertation "The Grand Inquisitor".

Algernon wrote: "note of vehement condemnation of the Catholic branch of cristianity when it comes to religious dogma and the militant church who knows better than Christ what is best for humanity?. I believe Dostoyevsky wanted to contrast this aspect with the traditionally less ambitious and tolerant view of Orthodoxy."

Magnificent observation Algernon! Although I also wonder about Dostoevsky's notion of Mother Russia arising as the savior of the world by grace of God. I felt Orthodox nationalism soaked not only Ivan's discourse but also the whole narration.

I find this section to be a shifting point in the narration because Ivan's discourse "The Grand Inquisitor" settles the grounds of what will be the ultimate judgment of the Karamazov's souls. Ivan's skepticism and pragmatic argument about God's non-existence based on the abstract suffering of children arises as a counterpoint to Father Zossima's unfaltering belief on the goodness of people and on love as true gospel to salvation.
I think it's in this section where the true nature of each brother is starting to materialize while female characters consolidate as volatile, overly dramatic and manipulative creatures (specially self-centered Mme Hohlakov and her rather inconsistent daughter Lise), quite a contrast to the rational and self-controlled discourse shown by the male characters.

You're spot-on Garima! Alyosha is starting to get in father Zossima's shoes, draining bitterness and anger from the ones surrounding him and replacing it with goodness and gentle advice. Not only does he bear the attack of those schoolboys stoically, he has energy to listen selflessly and try to shed some light into the perverse love-hate relationship between impassioned Katya and cold and scheming Ivan.

Here I enclose my review, although any attempt to write about this masterpiece is an understatement, just read the novel to get a glimpse of Dostoevsky's soul and get done with it!:)

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Book Portrait wrote: "The reframing of the plot around the Fyodor/Grushenka/Dmitri love triangle struck me:

Towering like a mountain above all the rest stood the fatal, insoluble question: How would things end between ..."

That was very shocking for me as well. Women in War & Peace were presented in a much more composed and almost pious fashion. Dostoevky's female characters are volcanoes about to burst. Grusha is a walking temptation, a sort of femme fatale, with impassioned nature and sort of manipulative drive. Katya appears of a more lofty nature but equally exasperating. Liza is conceited and fastidious yet innocent. I am afraid Dostoevsky had his own opinion regarding women and it wasn't precisely unbiased. You know, where there is money and women, sure trouble to come! :)

I enclose an article I found in a Catalan newspaper which refers to the significance of the names in TBK.
It seems that kara means black in tartar language, which might refer to the fateful bleakness of the soul of these brothers. And amazingly, smerdet is a Russian verb which means "stink".
Nothing in this novel is coincidental, I am afraid.
http://www.ara.cat/premium/llegim/fut...

I agree with Samadrita, Algernon.
I think Smerdyakov is Fyodor's bastard and that he might have possibly taken advantage (or even raped) his retarded mother, "stinking Lizaveta".

Great posts Book Portrait. I wondered what Dostoevsky thought about those "modern" reforms, specially since despicable Rakitin vouched for the abolition of serfdom and he is presented as a cold, calculating and nihilist character.

David wrote: "I don’t really see the narrator as unreliable and I’d be interested to know why some readers find him such. It seems to me that he is trying to provide accurate information from wherever he has fou..."

I agree David, I didn't think the narrator was unreliable but rather an omniscient one. At some point I even wondered if it might have been Dostoevsky himself, specially because of the constant shift between the playfulness and foreboding of his tone.

What a fitting quotation to describe Fyodor and his excesses and flaws, Tej. I was very taken with the adjectives Dostoevsky used to describe him in chapter four of Book I: He was wicked and sentimental. Adjectives that in turn might be applicable in turn to his sons.
I also found Fyodor's buffoonery and self-bantering in the gathering that takes place before Zossima, which overflows with guilt and self-disgust, quite revealing. I find guilt is one of the major issues in the novel and that it affects all characters. The only difference is that the good natured ones blame themselves and seek punishment as some sort of purification and the evil ones blame others while feeling despondent.

I join the chorus of appreciation for those pictures, Book. Delightful visual impact that combines perfectly with the story. I wonder if all the monks/elders were supposed to wear long, white beards like that, I have the impression that must have been the Orthodox fashion. Also those rounded domes of the colorful churches which reminds me of "onions", which will become an important symbol in the forthcoming chapters.
I also noted how religion is basically linked to nationalism, "Mother Russia" is mentioned several times next to exalted proclamations of guilt, faith or love for God. I guess that also has to do with Orthodoxy rather than with Catholicism.

Ce Ce wrote: "Samadrita wrote: "Dolors, you are so right about the Biblical allusions. I feel the disadvantage of not being acquainted with the Bible while reading TBK myself. A long time ago I had a pocket-size..."

Fantastic post Ce Ce, I think you are onto something with that comment. You actually enlightened a scene will appear later on for me. I need to take a mental note to comment on that when the time arrives. Jesus rose on the third day and there's another passage in the Book of Revelations that also mentions a weeding in which a miracle is perfumed on the third day. (view spoiler)[ The Cana of Galilee chapter (hide spoiler)]

Samadrita wrote: "Alexei shines in the beginning and later on Ivan outshines him."

Samadrita I don't know how far you've read but I thought Alyosha outshone Ivan in the end.
(view spoiler)[ Are you talking about The Great Inquisitor chapter? That was the most magnificent exposition that vouches for atheism that I have ever read. But I thought the end was quite ambiguous, because even though Iván certainly makes the best of Alyosha's spiritual counterarguments he is completely moved when his brother approaches and kisses him on the lips mimicking imprisoned Jesus in Ivan's story. And Iván is dumbstruck by that gesture. It seemed to me that deep down he is seeking for forgiveness and for a transcendental revelation and that he badly wants to see the world as Alyosha's does, but he is much wiser and experienced than his brother, hence his constant inner struggle. (hide spoiler)]

For me the first two books serve the purpose of presenting the basis of a very complex spiritual chess game and its players:
- Fyodor - A man who has abandoned all hope of redemption. He doesn't seek for salvation, he lives on the joys of life ignoring morality and enjoying the hedonistic pleasures of life no matter what.
- Ivan - Cold, analytical, strategist, very sharp witted. He believes human beings are essentially bad and corrupted, like his own father whom he despises.
- Alyosha - Untainted, faithful, pure hearted and embracing. He is Ivan's opposite, he believes human beings are essentially good, like Father Zossima.
- Dimitri - He is a blend between Fyodor and Alyosha. Seeks for earthy pleasure but is fearful of God. He will have to prove himself to the reader.
More characters will be introduced as the novel advances.
So we have the players situated on the board and the chess game is about to start involving the constant spiritual struggle, conflicts dealing with faith and the double edged sword of moral responsibility and the burden of free will.

Great remarks Garima!
I am half way of the novel, yesterday I finished Book VIII and I realize that years spent in Siberia reading and rereading the New Testament filled this novel with biblical references that I miss most of the time. Every single scene, every single character can be related to some of the passages of the New Testament.
But I also chose to keep reading, get the plot first and maybe if I ever decide to read the Bible, try to understand all the religious symbolism imprinted in this epic.
Also, I was wondering about the jesting tone that you Samadrita point out in your last comment. My Garnett's translation doesn't come as particularly teasing. There are some scenes that might have been comical, for example, the buffoonery shown by Fyodor when they meet with Father Zossima in Book II, which for me was quite revealing about the nature of each character. But I found there was more self-pity and irony that hilarity. Or at least that was my reading of it.

I have started reading the CG translation and I'll vouch for Jean-Matt comment and say that her maybe more simplistic but more accessible tone goes with my reading tastes. She might not have been punctiliously accurate but the text has a natural flow in it, which makes the pages turn almost at their own will.

Kalliope wrote: "Dolors wrote: "Samadrita wrote: "I only like CG's sentence construction better. But I'll post my views here if I find anything. I'd say Garnett made the original text more elegant, perhaps."

I thi..."

Oh, yes, forgive me Kalliope, I missed the second link.

Samadrita wrote: "I only like CG's sentence construction better. But I'll post my views here if I find anything. I'd say Garnett made the original text more elegant, perhaps."

I think that's a fantastic idea Samadrita, we can compare both translations as we advance reading and discuss the pros and the cons of each one.
I found another article praising P&V translation because of its accurate approach to the idioms and tones of the novel.

"The Brothers Karamazov, the last, longest, and most complex of the novels, presents the biggest challenge to the translator. It comes in a new version now by Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky, both of whom are unusually well qualified for such a task. Mr. Pevear has received fellowships for translation from several august bodies including the Guggenheim Foundation, and Larissa Volokhonsky was born in Leningrad and has wide experience of putting into English the new Russian orthodox theologians. They also have a clear idea of what the problems of Englishing Dostoevsky are: how to give some idea of the extraordinarily rich polyphony of voices, accents, undertones, and suggestions in the text; how to convey the novel’s marvelous construction, and at the same time its wholly “living” air of majestic dishevelment."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archi...

So, as I think Garima pointed out, there seems to be a general agreement that the P&V might be the best translation although reading Samadrita's comment I might be inclined to the GG's one. I will soon know as I own the GG's translation myself. This is going to be interesting.

Excellent Samadrita! Thank you very much for organizing the group. Outstanding job.

Thank you Samadrita and Garima for making of this group such a homely haven to get lost into.
My only Dostoyevsky so far is C&P which I read years ago and which I wouldn't mind a second re-reading of, so I will be looking forward to keep an eye on the group after we are done with TBK, which I have been looking forward since I read a modern retelling of the Russian classic called The Brothers K, which I fervently recommend for those who like historical epics.