leynes’s Comments (group member since Jul 06, 2016)

leynes’s comments from the Moby Dick read-along group.

Okay, I'm glad we're both up for a general discussion. :)

LotR is intimidating and I am very fortunate because I'm reading it with a friend of mine who has studied Tolkien's mythology in College and so her input is super useful and interesting. I feel like if you're just reading LotR without diving into its background and who all of those friggin' people are Tolkien is mentioning then it isn't very rewarding... But of course it's hard to get the right information if you're a newbie in his world. I am by no means an expert but if you're giving LotR a go and have some question I would like to help you (...if I know the answer :D).

And I'm not going to read the new Harry Potter book. I've been going back and forth about the (dis)advantages and I have come to the conclusion that this story will bring nothing but disappointed and uncomfortable feelings to me. Harry Potter means so much to me and I have come to terms with the fact that the series was wrapped up (perfectly wrapped up actually) and I don't even have the feeling that Jo's new input is "canon". Harry Potter means something different to everyone who has accompanied him on his journey and therefore I feel like the reader has the right to imagine his future for themselves and so in my little my head the future that I have imagined for Harry is just as relevant as Rowling's. :)

Hey Grace,

first of all thank you for those insightful interpretations of chapter 42. Just like you I found Melville's commentary on "whiteness" very interesting. What I really enjoyed here was that Ishmael concluded that white is not really a color but the "absence of color" and that's why it has a mysterious quality; and everything about our beloved White Whale just screams mystery. ;)

second of all I really wanted to apologize for not replying earlier but after my exams my brain really needed a break and whenever I attempted to read Moby Dick I literally fell asleep (I'm still enjoying the book but it's not really captivating... :D) and so I had nothing to talk about.
I saw on your update that you've already finished it (and that you've read The Hobbit in the meantime... aawww that makes me really happy, you should try LotR as well it is very enjoyable even though IMO much denser than The Hobbit)...
I'm trying to finish Moby Dick this week and I would suggest that we then just discuss the ending and overall themes of the book? (If you're still interested... I could understand if you're not because I'm literally the worst when it comes to replying on time).
Just like you I think that the majority of the chapters are really just Melville talking about whaling in a factual way (with no deeper meaning) and I hope that there will be a bit more action in the last chapters when they finally encounter Moby Dick (and how that it wrapped up) which is much more interesting to discuss than how whales are painted in England vs America... :D

Hey ho!

Yeah, I totally agree that sometimes Melville's fact-heavy writing seems like bragging about his extensive knowledge and can get quite too much but since I've read some negative reviews before jumping into this novel I had the chance to brace myself... :D and I'm just trying to project myself onto Melville and let his passion become mine...

I totally agree with what you say about Ahab's (re)presentation. When I talked about being disappointed I didn't necessarily mean his character traits and actions just the general fact that all of a sudden he was just on deck giving orders even though in beforehand he was made out to be such a mystery because no one knew where he was exactly and I was just hoping for a bigger entrance. :D

I am honestly so impressed with how well versed in the Bible you are because this gives me a great insight into some of those terms as well. You must be getting so much more out of that novel than I do because most of the time I have basically no idea who Melville is referencing to and I can't look everything up. And overall the language he uses is honestly veeery challenging for me because he uses so many different and unusual words that I sometimes have no idea what I'm reading... That might be a reason why you are much more critcial of this novel (which is great btw!) because I honestly couldn't fathom understanding every singe friggin' word of this novel... I think it would get the last of me because the sheer flood of information must be so overwhelming!

I have two exams, one this Friday and the other one this Saturday, so I will probably not be able to post/ reply since Saturday evening! I plan on at least pushing past chapter 60, hopefully 70-80 this week though.

HAPPY READING! :)

Hey Grace! :D

It's such a bummer that this book was a failure when Melville was alive. I actually read a little bit about him and maaan he led a sad life after the publication of Moby Dick. He became an alcoholic and had like a bad physical condition throughout his life. :( But I feel like it happens so often authors only get recognized posthumously... YOU'RE A WRITER? That's sooo cool. Have you actually been published (I know it's like super hard to get a deal) but I totally would read one of your works!!!

I thought upon the homoeroticism and I thought that maybe the situation is the same as it is in Lord of the Rings (which I'm also currently reading. :D). With Tolkien it's a little more obvious but by making his male characters softer and acting lovingly he kinda tried to make up for the lack of female represantation in his story and maybe that's the case with Melville as well... because they are almost no women in the story and they just appear for a few pages and are never mentioned again...

Unfortunately I've never read any Hardy but as far as Melville's criticism of Christianity goes, I don't think his criticising the religion per se (because he seems to be a moderate Christian), just certain people who get to frantic and fanatic in their belief and actions. Even though it is impossible to draw a line without passing judgement.

Thanks for giving that great insight into Jonah's book in the Old Testament. That makes a lot more sense now :D and actually fit the story well, I also agree with your interpretation that Ahab is then trying to defeat God rather than be saved by him.

I actually looked an interpretation up for chapter 40:

"
A bizarre chapter, and one of the first of numerous “playlets” that dot the novel. Melville uses these plays as a way to fully capture the diversity of people and thoughts on the ship without having to filter them through he consciousness of a narrator. It is interesting that in a novel so concerned about omens and prophecies and the impossibility of interpreting such things, that Melville sometimes feels the need to eliminate the interpretive force of an interpreting narrator from his book. It is interesting to note that, in this chapter, it is unclear where Ishmael has gone, or if he is even the narrator of the “playlet” at all.
"
Source: http://www.litcharts.com/lit/moby-dic...

So yeah I think that's a good explanation because even though Ishamel is our narrator I truly feel like Melville wants to incorporate more views than just his and this little playlet successfully portrays a lot of diverse thoughts. :)

I will write my thoughts down this evening or tomorrow (I promise). I have to go to college now (I'm actually 15 minutes late already because gathering my thoughts for the first 20 chapters took longer than expected.)

---- OKAY LET'S DO THIS ----

General

So first off a few general things that I've forgot to mention yesterday.

- I really like how "meta" Melville is in his writing, by that I mean that he breaks the fourth wall quite a lot and let's the reader know that it's actually just a book by saying things like "Some chapters back, one Bulkington was spoken of ..." or all of the footnotes in which he is revising some of his statements on a factual level.

Chapters 21 - 40
- So chapter 21 "Going Aboard" is for me the start of the Rising Action, finally something exciting happens. I'm not saying chapters 1 - 20 were boring (because they weren't!) - it was actually nice to get to know our narrator a little better before starting off with the adventure - but I thought it was duly time for our protagonist to get on that damn ship already :D

- what I hinted before in my last entry was the set up for Ahab's character, I was honestly sooo intrigued; I feel like Melville isn't really good at writing suspense (because he is just too detailed in his descriptions and background infos to create a good arc of suspense) but Ahab's set up was top notch;

-I really liked the heart-warming scene right before take off where Bildad und Peleg were left behind (because their task was just to prepare the ship for its voyage which was also an interesting fact that I didn't know about that whole sailor business) and Bildad couldn't stop palavering and just blessed the crew non-stop... I really liked that!

- I also appreciated chapter 24 "The Advocate" because in this Melville really shone through Ishmael. In general I have the feeling that Melville might have projected himself on Ishmael and used him as a mouthpiece to express his beliefs; so chapter 24 starts off with: "As Queequeg and I are now fairly embarked in this business of whaling; and as this business of whaling has somehow come to be regarded among landsmen as a rather unpoetical and disreputable pursuit; therefore, I am all anxiety to convince ye, ye landsmen, of the injustice hereby done to us hunters of whales." - I feel like this might have been also one of Melville's intentions because he's been a whaler himself and apparently very interested in that topic and might have wanted the public to gain a better understanding of that whole business and I really appreciate the insights he gives us (e.g. how much money is put into the whaling industry each year etc.).
And it was also really cool that he stated that there's nothing wrong with craftsmanship (aka "for a whale-ship was my Yale College and my Harvard.") because often times people confuse education with intelligence.

- so the Rising Action has actually a bit of an Exposition because Melville presents us the important members of the crew, naming them Knights and Squires which I deem fitting because there seems to be an apparent hierarchy on those whale-ships and since the crew is spending so much time on the ship and has to defend it from whale attacks and such it is like a home/ a castle...

THE CREW

The knights:
1. The chief mate Starbuck: "'I will have no man in my boat', said Starbuck, 'who is not afraid of a whale.'"
2. The second mate Stubb: "A happy-go-lucky", always smoking
3. The third mate Flask: A "young fellow [...] who somehow seemed to think that the great Leviathans had personally and hereditarily affronted him."

One of my favorite quotes (so far) is actually about Stubb: "I know not all that may be coming, but be it what it will, I'll go to it laughing."

The squires: (the harpooners who assist the mates)
1. Queequeg: our beloved Washington-cannibal :D
2. Tashtego: "an unmixed Indian"
3. Daggoo: "black negro-savage"

I also liked Ishmael's/Melville's snarky commentary about the whole situation: "because in all the cases the American liberally provides the brains, the rest of the whole generously supplying the muscles." which I read in a sarcastic way and still holds true up to this day.

The captain:
- Ahab; in chapter 28 we meet him in flesh for the first time and I was honestly disappointed, in my head I made him out to be this badass Zeus-like man but he's (so far) just an old bitter maniac. I also really didn't like how he treated the crew (especially Stubb) as if he were above them because so far he hasn't done anything that would progress their journey...

- Chapter 32 (Cetology) was awesome, I really don't know why I liked the little excursion into how Melville classifies whales so much; well, I think it might have been due to the fact that whilst reading I could just feel Melville's passion for that subject and felt like he included it because he really really really wanted the reader to know; It's hard to put into words but it seemed like he wanted to educate the reader so that the reader gained a better understanding of how much goes into the business of whaling and why certain whales are more valuable than others etc. I also really liked the funny comments he integrated into that factual chapter, e.g. when he talks about pig-fish: "and especially as they do not spout, I deny their credentials as whales; and have presented them with their passports to quit the Kingdom of Cetology." Nowadays you would call that nerdy and I find it adorable!
Also what really hit me in that chapter is that whales really are the largest inhabitans of the globe, how friggin' crazy is that? :D

I also had the feeling that he was in parts humanizing/ personifying certain aspects of the whales calling them in a funny fashion "gentlemen", talking about their "grins" etc.

The most important is probably that he calls the whales "Leviathans". When I first read it I had just a vague idea of what that meant. I knew that Thomas Hobbes had written a philosophical work with that title in which the Leviathan is basically the sole ruler/ absolute dictator of the state. If you transfer that to the sea the metaphor actually works because the whales are the dominant and most dangerous creatures in the sea. But after doing more research the Leviathan is actually a mythological creature (a sea monster to be precise) who stands for almightiness. Wohoo, that fits even better if you take that Moby Dick = Christian God interpretation into consideration as well.

- overall not much happens in these chapters because they havn't found Moby yet but I really like how the everyday life of the ship is being described, how they have a specific order in which they are allowed to dine and how the mates (who have to dine with Ahab) can't really enjoy their meals and the harpooners are just much more chill and don't give a damn about etiquette. Those scenes can also be read in a much more social commentary way: "In strange contrast to the hardly tolerable constraint and nameless invisible domineerings of the captain's table, was the entire care-free licence and ease, the almost frantic democracy of those inferior fellows the harpooneers."

- starting with chapter 36 a weird phenomenon begins which actually stirred my attempt to structure the novel in an Aristotelean way; every chapter begins with a little stage direction just like plays, e.g. "(Enter Ahab: Then, all)." OR "(The cabin; by the stern windows; Ahab sitting alone, and gazing out)"
I have theory why that might be so but it could be a little far-fetched, so here we go: Chapter 36 is also the chapter in which Moby Dick appears (implicitly, his name is said by members of the crew) for the first time in this novel and it is also the chapter in which Ahab expresses his desire for revenge for the creature who maimed it. Whilst reading I had the feeling that right now the DRAMA (literally) starts. I mean we now know the purpose and that shit will probably get real in the near future because Ahab is obsessing so much over this whale, it had a very dramatic theatralic feel and maybe that's why he used the dramaturgical structure (BUT WHO KNOWS :D).

→ In this chapter I was also really rooting for Starbuck because he was literally the only one who spoke up against Ahab ("I came here to hunt whales, not my commander's vengeance.") which I thought was really brave and important.

- I also liked the little songs/ verses:
"We'll drink to-night with hearts as light,
To love, as gay and fleeting
As bubbles that swim, on the beaker's brim,
And break on the lips while meeting."
→ because that's something that I totally associate with sailors: being drunk and singing about loved-ones far away. :D

- And lastly chapter 40; that was honestly so weird in its structure that I have no idea what to do with it. It was interesting to see all the different sailors who are aboard because they were from so many different parts of the world but I can't analyze it properly... You might have and idea. :)

My review for chapters 41 - 60 will def be posted this weekeend! :)

Hello Grace,

sorry for my late reply, I had a hell of a weekend and could just start reading the novel this week... And I really wanted to read the first 40 chapters (one third of the novel) before starting to discuss it because I felt like I needed to know the story in a larger context to properly talk about it.

Before reading my random thoughts you should know that I have basically no idea what I'm talking about :D I have never studied Melville or Moby in school and havn't heard that much about the story either, so everything will be more of a personal interpretation, hope you don't mind. :)
My edition has a very little introduction (2 pages) that talks briefly about the themes of the novel ( belief systems; what can happen when desire for vengeance is allowed to take control; Moby Dick as a representation of a Christian God) and Melville's intention (Melville being a sailor himself and then being displeased at witnessing Christian missionaires in Hawaii forcing their faith upon the natives, who had their own beliefs). So I kept that in mind whilst reading and it has actually helped me with my personal interpretaiton.

So yeah, let's do this!
(I assume it's a given but feel free to add your thoughts and tell me if you think some of my interpretations may be a little off... :D)

General thoughts (not related to the plot)

- A little fun fact: Melville was friends with Nathanial Hawthorne (author of "The Scarlet Letter") and actually dedicated Moby Dick to him - I thought that was just really fun to know; this made me actually envious :D one of the greatest classics being dedicated to you personally, that must have been an awesome feeling :D

- I really like that the chapters are so short (2-5 pages) because it's easier to power through a hard chapter and it actually makes me feel very accomplished whilst reading

- the language is beautiful, it has a certain richness to it that I don't encounter in contemporary fiction anymore. I'm really happy that I clicked with Melville's writing style; it gets a little draining sometimes when he starts to describe every litte detail of a setting but otherwise I'm really happy and I'm marking beautiful/ important quotes like crazy whilst reading

Chapters 1 - 20

I'm not sure if this will apply to the novel as a whole but the first 40 chapters made me think that you could actually use Aristotle's Dramatic Structure to divide this novel.

The first 20 chapters feel like the Exposition to me because you basically just get to know Ishmael and his desire to sail with a whale boat. And everything happens ashore.
The next 20 chapters (21 - 40) feel like the Rising Action because he picks his boat and the adventure becomes more definite. You get to learn the crew and Ahab's mad desire to hunt Moby even though Moby does only appear implicitly so far. Not sure what you think about this but I would structure it that way.

- First of all when I've read the first sentence "Call me Ishmael." I got really excited; as I said before I don't know much about Moby Dick but I know that sentence (probably everyone knows that sentence). So we were off to a good start.

- Actually I got off to a very good start with Ishmael as a character in general. So far he is by far my favorite character in the novel and I relate to him. I love his narrative voice and that he is sassy/ funny at times which lightens the mood and the dense bits of this novel.
I fell in love with him on the first page where he states that:
"whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off - then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can."
When I've read this quote, I knew I was in for a fun time.
OR where he talks about him being poor: "and a purse is but a rag unless you have something in it." SOO GOOD!
OR "The transition is a keen one, I assure you, from a schoolmaster to a sailor, and requires a strong decoction of Seneca and the Stoics to enable you to grin and bear it."
-> this also made me question his age, I mean HOW OLD IS HE (because I picture him as a 19 year old but I mean when he was a schoolmaster he must be 30+ or something)

- Ishamel's and Queequeg's friendship is really very interesting, especially in the beginning. I actually thought it was so funny how the owner of the inn played a trick on Ishamel and made him worry so much about his sleeping partner and then when Queequeg tried to "kill" him.
-> What I didn't get about Queequeg as a character was if he really is a cannibal or not and if why Melville incorporated that in the story? Because I feel like Melville wanted to give a very realistic view on being a sailor, harpooners etc. and cannibalism wasn't really a thing in the 19th century (OR WAS IT? I have no idea).
-> I was also really unsure about his usage of the words "savage" and "negro" because I'm from Germany and if I would translate these into German the words would be very very insulting and negatively connotated. I wanted to ask you if this is the case in the English as well (also taking into account when this novel was written)? Is a "savage" just a person that isn't civilized (without judging that way of life)? Is a "negro" just a black person or is it insulting?

Another point that's really interesting about their friendship is the underlying homoerotica (at least that's how I've read it when Ishmael talked about feeling very comfortable sleeping close to Queequeg etc.). Not sure if this was Melville's intention since he is a Christian but there certainly is a bit of an ambiguity there. I might just look at that part: "then, in our hearts' honeymoon, lay I and Queequeg - a cosy, loving pair."

A quote that sums up there friendship pretty well: "Better sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunken Chrisitan." (In general I appreciate how critical Melville deals with Christianity but more about that later).
OR "I began to be sensible of strange feelings. I felt a melting in me. No more splintered my heart and maddened hand were turned agains the wolfish world. The soothing savage had redeemed it."
-> This also made me think about the other scene in which Ishmael tries to understand Queequeg's beliefs and starts praying to Queequeg's idol as well.

And another funny quote, describing Queequeg perfectly: "Queequeg was George Washington cannibalistically developed."

- The scenes in which Ishmael and Queequeg visit the chapel in New Bedfort didn't do much for me because I honestly didn't understand the allegory of Jonah (the tale that Father Mapple tells). The basic result of the tale was: "Sin not; but if you do take heed to repent of it like Jonah." AND "To preach the Truth to the face of Falsehood." Not really sure what to do with that. The latter might be a hint to the fact that some Christians think that their religion is THE TRUTH and everyone with other beliefs is wrong but I'm really not sure.
You might have a clever idea or a better understanding?

- What happens in chapter 12 - in which Queequeg's past was told in a chapter - was really funny to me because Melville seems to do that quite a lot - By that I mean that he is not introducing his characters to us by showing them in different situations, no, he just writes a little chapter about their background etc. I think that's funny because nowadays that is regarded childish immature writing but in the context of the novel it acutally helped me understand the characters better and I didn't mind it at all because otherwise it might get confusing and so you at least know where to turn when you forget who the character exactly is (this was especially useful when he introduced us to the crew of the Pequod - Starbuck, Stubb & Co.)

- I got really excited when Ishmael finally decided which ship they should take for their 3 year voyage (it was also really heart-warming how Queequeg let him chose the ship even tho Queequeg is much more experienced). I was just wondering if the name of the ship "PEQUOD" has a specific meaning. Any ideas? Otherwise, I'll look it up. There are probably a lot of theories out there, I just can't come up with my own.

- the situation with the two Captains who prepare the ship for its voyage (Bildad and Peleg) was also great because it got me an insight into how that whole sailing business works and that you basically don't get paid and just get a percentage of the earnings that the hunted whale makes (oil, flesh etc.)

- there is also another great quote about religion and how to not take it to seriously: "and very probably he [Captain Peleg] had long since come to the sage and sensible conclusion that a man's religion is one thing, and his practical world quite another."
Another more problematic comment he made about religion is when Ishmael invades Queequeg's ramadan: "I have no objection to any person's religion, be it what it may, so long as that person does not kill or insult any other person, because that other person don't believe it also. But when a man's religion becomes really frantic; when it is a positive torment to him; and, in fine, makes this earth of ours an uncomfortable inn to lodge in; then I think it high time to take that individual aside and argue the point with him."
-> I totally agree with the first part (aka as long as it does not kill etc.) but the second part (aka when it becomes really frantic) is very difficult because I agree in theory but practically WHO SHOULD BE THE JUDGE? What is frantic, where do we draw the line? For example I though it was Queequeg's good right to fast and not talk and thought Ishmael's invasion to be patronizing.

- overall I liked the set up (not so much the resolution) of Captain Ahab's character... I liked how mysterious (almost God-like) he was described (I mean they called him "Old Thunder", that just screams ZEUS), more myth than man. At one point I was actually thinking that Elijah (or Elias not sure about that name) was Ahab in disguise... Turns out I was wrong but oh boy it was fun to have that slow build up.

So this concludes my rambling for the first 20 chapters. Hope you could benefit at least a little bit from it.