Jesse’s Comments (group member since Jan 01, 2017)

Jesse’s comments from the Dostoevsky: Demons group.

3.4.IV:

Pyotr: And I know too that you didn't eat the idea, but the idea has eaten you, so you won’t put it off.

Kirillov: What? The idea has eaten me?

P: Yes.

K: And not I ate the idea? That’s good. You have some small intelligence.

(original text is "syela" (съела), "to eat").

This is reminiscent of Liza's monologue to Stavrogin in the previous chapter:

Pyotr Stepanovitch skipped up to me and explained it all to me at once. He revealed to me that you were dominated by a ‘great idea,’ before which he and I were as nothing, but yet that I was a stumbling-block in your path.

The phrase "great idea" (or "great ideal") appears several times in the first two parts in connection with Stepan. He concludes Part 2 with "I do this for the sake of a great idea"; presumably his great idea is a humanistic form of socialism unsullied by the crude materialism of the younger generation. From 1.1.VI

you cannot imagine what wrath and sadness overcome your whole soul when a great idea, which you have long cherished as holy, is caught up by the ignorant and dragged forth before fools like themselves into the street, and you suddenly meet it in the market unrecognisable, in the mud, absurdly set up, without proportion, without harmony, the plaything of foolish louts! No! In our day it was not so, and it was not this for which we strove.

he [Pyotr] insisted that we three should work together, and said the most fantastic things about a boat and about maple-wood oars out of some Russian song... I was fascinated by that operatic boat, I am a young lady (Liza to Stavrogin)

This recalls Pyotr's exhortation to Stavrogin in 2.6.VII (Pyotr is Busy): We shall take to our barque, you know; the oars are of maple, the sails are of silk, at the helm sits a fair maiden, Lizaveta Nikolaevna … hang it, how does it go in the ballad?

We never find out how it goes in the ballad. Although Pyotr talks up this team of three (himself as facilitator and Liza to keep Stavrogin content), Stavrogin is ultimately not satisfied with Liza.

Pyotr backs up and assures Stavrogin that Liza is inessential, and that he can keep Stavrogin amused going forward:

I brought her to you simply to amuse you, and to show you that you wouldn’t have a dull time with me. I shall be of use to you a hundred times in that way. I always like pleasing people. If you don’t want her now, which was what I was reckoning on when I came, then …

Stavrogin is finally unwilling to play the part of Pyotr's revolutionary hero. In 3.3.II Pyotr says to him in frustration: Fine sort of ‘magic boat,’ you are; you are a broken-down, leaky old hulk!

And in the next section 3.3.III to Liza: If your ‘fairy boat’ has failed you, if it has turned out to be nothing more than a rotten old hulk, only fit to be chopped up …

In his "Tolstoy or Dostoevsky," Steiner asserts that "Verkhovensky has underestimated the sheer weariness of his god". He also points out the suggestion of "sterility" or a failed physical encounter between Liza and Stavrogin implied in Pyotr's remark:

as soon as you came out to me I guessed from your face that you’d been ‘unlucky.’ A complete fiasco, perhaps.

1. Stepan prepares to leave after denouncing the townsfolk as "little fools"

2. Pyotr secretly arranged some union of Stavrogin and Lizaveta Nikolevna

3. The fete is as much a disaster as the literary salon; Lembke breaks down

4. Lebyadkin and his sister murdered; a suspicious arson nearly conceals the evidence

In every period of transition this riff-raff, which exists in every society, rises to the surface, and is not only without any aim but has not even a symptom of an idea, and merely does its utmost to give expression to uneasiness and impatience. (Garnett)

riff-raff: Russian сволочь (svoloch) "bastards". P&V: scum

Yet the most worthless fellows suddenly gained predominant influence, began loudly criticising everything sacred, though till then they had not dared to open their mouths, while the leading people, who had till then so satisfactorily kept the upper hand, began listening to them and holding their peace, some even simpered approval in a most shameless way.

worthless fellows: Russian дряннейшие людишки (dryanneyshiye lyudishki) "crappy people" or "cursed people". P&V: the trashiest people.

Evidently an expression of Dostoevsky's conservatism. We are treated to some Russian invective describing opportunists who raise rabble under the cover of supposed "reform".

A wild and nonsensical idea crossed my mind.

"Stepan Trofimovitch, tell me as a friend," I cried, "as a real friend, I will not betray you: do you belong to some secret society or not?"

And on this, to my amazement, he was not quite certain whether he was or was not a member of some secret society.

"That depends, voyez-vous."

"How do you mean 'it depends'?"

"When with one's whole heart one is an adherent of progress and... who can answer it? You may suppose you don't belong, and suddenly it turns out that you do belong to something."

"Now is that possible? It's a case of yes or no."

"Cela date de Petersburg when she and I were meaning to found a magazine there. That's what's at the root of it. She gave them the slip then, and they forgot us, but now they've remembered. Cher, cher, don't you know me?" he cried hysterically. "And they'll take us, put us in a cart, and march us off to Siberia forever, or forget us in prison."

----

Stepan's identity is based on the fact that he is a dangerous revolutionary. Yet when it comes down to a simple yes-or-no question he's bamboozled. Although he doesn't belong to any nihilist group, and logically has no reason to fear imprisonment, he'd (almost) rather go to Siberia than admit he doesn't have any underground affiliations.

This is reminiscent of Dmitri's dilemma in Brothers Karamaozov (spoiler if you haven't read it). When the question comes up of where he got a pile of money to party with the gypsies, the truth is that he had previously hoarded away half of the money that he supposedly blew "impulsively" in his last episode of profligacy. Yet he can't admit it, because his identity is based on being ruled by his passions. He'd rather go to prison for a murder he didn't commit, than admit that he'd secretly "coupon-clipped" his way through his last Bacchanalian orgy, making it look like he'd spent 1500 roubles when he really only spent 750. Such is the price of the characters we create for ourselves.

"I won't give up Shatov to you," he said. Pyotr Stepanovitch started. They looked at one another.

"I told you this evening why you needed Shatov's blood," said Stavrogin, with flashing eyes. "It's the cement you want to bind your groups together with. You drove Shatov away cleverly just now. You knew very well that he wouldn't promise not to inform and he would have thought it mean to lie to you."

----

As in his meeting with von Lembke, Pyotr appears to defend Shatov. Later in the chapter though he gives up Shatov all too easily:

"Listen. I'll let you have him. Let's make it up. Your price is a very great one, but... Let's make it up!"

"What business is it of mine if you have compromised yourselves?" laughed Stavrogin, but his eyes flashed.

"What business? What business?" voices exclaimed.

Many people got up from their chairs.

"Allow me, gentlemen, allow me," cried the lame man. "Mr. Verhovensky hasn't answered the question either; he has only asked it."

The remark produced a striking effect. All looked at one another. Stavrogin laughed aloud in the lame man's face and went out; Kirillov followed him; Verhovensky ran after them into the passage.

"What are you doing?" he faltered, seizing Stavrogin's hand and gripping it with all his might in his. Stavrogin pulled away his hand without a word.

----

This passage seems to present a breakdown in Stavrogin and Pyotr Verkhovensky's relationship. Perhaps Stavrogin is just playing along with this political conspiracy for laughs.

The chapter title "Pyotr Stepanovich is busy" translates the Russian phrase "v khlopotakh" (в хлопотах) where "khlopotakh" is literally hassle, conflict, or trouble. One Russian dictionary suggests the phrase "in cares" or "in the hassle" (usually associated with walking or driving to different places, instances) http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/dic_sy...

The phrase "Holy Russia" (Свята́я Русь, Svyataya Rus) appears twice Karmazinov's monologue of Section V.

"Holy Russia has less power of resistance than anything in the world. The Russian peasantry is still held together somehow by the Russian God"

"Holy Russia is a country of wood, of poverty... and of danger, the country of ambitious beggars in its upper classes, while the immense majority live in poky little huts."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Rus

http://www.interpretermag.com/and-rus...

"the whole essence of the Russian revolutionary idea lies in the negation of honour. I like its being so boldly and fearlessly expressed. No, in Europe they wouldn't understand it yet, but that's just what we shall clutch at. For a Russian a sense of honour is only a superfluous burden, and it always has been a burden through all his history. The open 'right to dishonour' will attract him more than anything."

The Russian custom of "right to dishonor" (pravom na beschest'ye, правом на бесчестье) entitled nobles to satisfaction for a personal or family insult (beschest'ye) - whether by monetary compensation or duel. Here it is has a second meaning as a right to commit dishonor (Reyfman, "Ritualized Violence Russian Style"). "Beschest'ye" is also the translation of J. M. Coetzee's "Disgrace" in Russian.

Later in VI:

"And another thing. Do you know, Karmazinov says that the essence of our creed is the negation of honour, and that by the open advocacy of a right to be dishonourable a Russian can be won over more easily than by anything."

"An excellent saying! Golden words!" cried Stavrogin. "He's hit the mark there! The right to dishonour—why, they'd all flock to us for that, not one would stay behind!

https://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B1...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestnic...

1. Yulia sends Pyotr to cheer up her husband Andrei Antonovich von Lembke
2. Pyotr ingratiates with Lembke by reading his novel
3. Pyotr suggests Shatov is a nihilist, Stavrogin is a counter-agent
4. Lembke doubts Pyotr; Blum plans to search Stepan for tracts
5. Pyotr visits Karmanizov and tells him the revolution is coming next May
6. Pyotor reveals plans for Kirillov's suicide, invites him and Shatov to a meeting
7. Stavrogin reveals his marriage to Mavriky, who warns him off Liza

The hooligans of Yulia's circle go to pay court on the holy fool Semyon Yakovlevich and mock him. He responds with "F- you!" (P&V) or "Out with the -!" (Garnett). The original text is rendered "В... тебя, в... тебя!"

Translating "тебя" as "you", the word we might expect in place of the censored "В..." might be "Ебать" (f-ck); this is the same word as Polish jebać. However the first letter В indicates perhaps the word is in perfective aspect "выебать тебя" - future tense? I'm not sure if this is grammatically correct Russian.

The Garnett translation is less obvious - perhaps the word is really блядь
(blyat, "whore")?

One other note here: we are given a hint something askew may have happened between Nikolai and Liza:

I fancied they both stood still for an instant, and looked, as it were, strangely at one another, but I may not have seen rightly in the crowd. It is asserted, on the contrary, and quite seriously, that Liza, glancing at Nikolay Vsyevolodovitch, quickly raised her hand to the level of his face, and would certainly have struck him if he had not drawn back in time.

scrofulous Morally degenerate; corrupt. Literally "suffering from scrofula" (tuberculosis, or a growth around the neck).

tableau vivant French for 'living picture', a style of artistic presentation, describes a group of suitably costumed actors, carefully posed and often theatrically lit.

In the aftermath of the duel, Nikolai informs Kirillov (P&V) - "I spit on your merit, I'm not seeking that from anyone!". Garnett translation: "Hang your merit. I don't seek anyone's approbation." The Russian word Заслуги ("zaslugi") translated as "merit" indicates a sense of "achievement" - it's used for various medals of honor such as the "Cross of Merit", or in modern times with reference to video game "badges".

The P&V translation is more accurate in translating the pronoun as "that" rather than inserting the extraneous "approbation". The Russian/Cyrillic "ее" (meaning "her" or "its") may appear nearly identical to the English "ee" - however the first form uses the Unicode character "Cyrillic small letter ie", not the Latin "e", so it requires copy-and-paste (or a Russian input method) to look it up.

Incidentally, it appears the final letter should actually be transcribed with a diaeresis as её - with the diaeresis generally omitted except for dictionaries, children's books, and cases where it's necessary for disambiguation. (I hope any Russian speakers will correct me here).

A very unexpected proposition from Nikolai to Marya is met with a disorienting rejection. It's suggested that Marya is mentally ill, but there is some uncertainty about exactly how ill she is. Nikolai prefaces his proposal with "You're not altogether mad, you know!" but seems to change his mind by the end of the encounter. She refers to Nikolai in the 3rd person, for example calling Varvara "his mother". She brings up Grishka Otrepyev ("False Dmitriy I", d. 1606 wikipedia), then identifies Nikolai as Otrepyev. Why does Nikolai offer to live with her in the mountains? He seems to think it a noble gesture, but she scorns it, saying her "bright falcon" has become a pedestrian "owl". Finally she accuses him of having unsheathed a knife, sending him into a violent rage.

It may be that Marya's madness is also of a divine nature. Perhaps she correctly perceives Nikolai's character as untrustworthy. As in 1.4 "The Lame Girl", where the narrator wonders if Shatov may be underestimating Marya, she chooses to communicate obliquely and makes few concessions to the listener. Indeed a knife is unsheathed in the very next section by Fedka the Convict.

We still perhaps don't understand why Nikolai married Marya in the first place. Based on his dialogue with Shatov in the previous chapter, it could be a perverse whim; as a nihilist, he seems bent on nothing more than violating all sense and logic. Maybe Marya's irrationality attracts him, but her spiritual sensitivity is repulsed by his essential self-centeredness.

I. Nikolai is the talk of the town. Pyotr ingratiates with the governor's wife.

II. Liputin moves Lebyadkin and Marya Timofeevna outside of town.

III. Pyotr boasts to Nikolai, taking credit for controlling Liputin.

IV. Alexey helps Nikolai sneak out for his late-night errands.

V. Nikolai asks Kirillov to be his dueling second; they discuss suicide.

VI. Nikolai confesses his secret marriage with Marya to Shatov.

VII. Shatov calls Nikolai on his nihilism, and asks him to see Bishop Tikhon.

The chapter title translated by Constance Garnett as "The Subtle Serpent". The phase suggests Matthew 10:16, which advises Christians to carefully protect themselves in a vicious secular society. Dostevsky uses the word Премудрый in his own text compared with мудры in the Russian Synodal bible. His prefix Пре- seems to mean "very" but maybe some Russian speaker can comment.

Perhaps coincidentally the satirical fairy tale Премудрый пискарь ("The Wise Minnow") was published 11 years later by another "Russian Messenger" writer Saltykov-Shchedrin, in the newspaper (Otechestvennye Zapiski, "Notes of the Fatherland" wikipedia) where Doestoevsky also published. It depicts a fish who "cleverly" survives in the dangerous world by hiding in a hole - a criticism of contemporary Russian liberals later echoed by Lenin. See Russian wikipedia and the 1979 animated short (English subtitles). Doestoevsky called out Saltykov's petty spatt with with Pisarev, and evidently Demons is partly intended to mock this type of liberal in-fighting.

Does the chapter title refer to a character who hides himself within society for protection? Perhaps this is a reference to Pyotr Stepanovich Verkhovensky - abandoned by his father, and desirous of patronage from upper class families like the Stavrogins. He seems to be scheming to glorify Nikolai Vsevolodovich and discredit Stepan. Pyotor's story that Nikolai "only spoke two words" to the lame woman perhaps can't be taken at face value.

I was a little confused by the interview with the lame girl, Marya Timofyevna Lebyadkin, where she recounts (perhaps madly) her time spent as a nun. The poetry she recites, according to the footnotes, is a reference to Peter the Great's first wife; Marya seems to believe she was in a convent with this woman (who would have been dead for over a hundred years at that point) wikipedia.

She also seems to believe that Lizaveta and Praskovya were nuns with her. It's unclear how Marya knows anything about these two, or why she might be interested in them (other than her brother's offer to Lizaveta), or if Marya had herself ever been a nun. Perhaps this a foreshadowing of some connection in her past which will be revealed later.

Quote:

'Where are you going to get a letter from, Mother Praskovya,' I say, 'when you haven't had one for twelve years?' Her daughter had been taken away to Turkey by her husband, and for twelve years there had been no sight nor sound of her. Only I was sitting the next evening at tea with the Mother Superior (she was a princess by birth), there was some lady there too, a visitor, a great dreamer, and a little monk from Athos was sitting there too, a rather absurd man to my thinking. What do you think, Shatushka, that monk from Athos had brought Mother Praskovya a letter from her daughter in Turkey, that morning—so much for the knave of diamonds—unexpected news! We were drinking our tea, and the monk from Athos said to the Mother Superior, 'Blessed Mother Superior, God has blessed your convent above all things in that you preserve so great a treasure in its precincts,' said he. 'What treasure is that?' asked the Mother Superior. 'The Mother Lizaveta, the Blessed.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWsRy...

When she says "Stavrogin" it almost sounds like "stav-ROY-gin"... anyway hearing someone say "Vsevolodovich" was helpful.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/8117/8...


I. Stepan holes up and frets about his engagement
II. Karmazinov messes with our narrator's dignity
III. Stepan and Varvara fret that Karmazinov hasn't visited
IV. Alexey Nilitch Kirillov talks about his suicide study
V. Lebyadkin the drunk returns with money and a sister
VI. Stavrogin is scandalized by rumors of sexual indiscretion
VII. Stepan suspects Stavrogin has seduced his fiancee
VIII. Kirillov's philosophy: freedom is not preferring life over death
IX. Drunk Lebyadkin announces his intentions for Lizaveta
X. Stepan professes his love for Varvara, and hopes for his son