Moppet’s Comments (group member since Oct 13, 2010)

Moppet’s comments from the Sweeping Sagas group.

This sounds really good.

Laura wrote: "Just finished book III. How is it going Moppet? By the way, where is Misfit???"

Well, I've finished. Here are my thoughts on books III and IV:

1. This was probably the part of the novel which dragged for me the most. The author's efforts to keep Edgar and Camilla apart start to feel very contrived.

2. But I think she's making a serious point about how idiotic the courtship conventions of the day were. Young ladies are not supposed to show a preference for any man, yet Dr. Marchmont thinks Edgar shouldn't marry until he is sure Camilla loves him.

3. Mrs Arlbery is one of my favourite characters. As she is rich and a widow (presumably - there's no mention of a husband) she gets away with unconventional behaviour.

Laura wrote: "I just finished Book I Moppet.

I must agree with with you, but I think Sir Hugh's planned legacy quite unfair since it's more based in remorse than anything else. And he also changes his mind very..."

I agree, he makes decisions to meet his emotional needs without thinking about the further consequences (which is actually something Camilla is prone to as well). I think someone at some point says why leave to chance, what could be avoided by foresight and this seems to be one of the lessons of the book.

I think he did have a duty to provide for Eugenia because he was partly to blame for what happened to her and it really would spoil her marriage chances. But making her the sole legatee just sets her up as a target for fortune hunters. I think he would have done better to give her the lion's share but also make legacies to her brother, sisters and cousins.

But at least it's better than his first plan to give everything to Camilla because he liked her the best, which seemed very unfair particularly to Indiana and Clermont who are both dependent on him.

What is the first name of Camilla's beautiful but selfish female cousin?

a) Indiana
b) Virginia
c) Carolina
d) Georgia

Correct answer is (a) Indiana

Misfit wrote: "Moppet wrote: "um...I was ill last week and needed something to read so I decided to make a start and now I'm more than halfway through! So will have to be careful not to spoil you guys."

Well f..."

I meant just to make a start but I couldn't put it down once I'd begun. I have slowed down a lot now though so you may catch up with me before long.

The action in Camilla is sparked when her uncle, Sir Hugh Tyrold, moves to Hampshire to be closer to his family. Where did he live before?

a) Somerset
b) Herefordshire
c) Northumberland
d) Yorkshire

Correct answer is (d) Yorkshire.

Okay, here are my thoughts on this section:

1. In Northanger Abbey, John Thorpe telling Catherine Morland that the whole book was about an old man playing at see-saw and learning Latin shows that he never got further than the opening chapters. I have to say I couldn't see what was so hilarious about Sir Hugh wanting to study the classics, however unlikely he was to succeed. It seems the 18th century didn't subscribe to the idea of lifelong learning. It put me in mind of when I was still at school and our German teacher told us she had been examining A-level German students and one of the students was a lady in her 80s. She had previously done a French A-level and was going on to learn Italian next year or something like that. We didn't think it was funny, we were all really impressed, especially as so many people say you have to be young to learn languages, etc.

2. Is Sir Hugh's planned legacy fair? Not being more specific to avoid spoilers, but I'm not sure it is.

3. I remembered Indiana from my previous read of the book 20 years back, and I thought I had liked her, but I don't see why now - she's just a vacant pretty face, and not a very nice person. By contrast I didn't remember Eugenia, but I am finding her far more interesting than Indiana, and to be honest, than Camilla even.

4. Lavinia: what's the point of her? Eugenia and Lionel have important roles to play but Lavinia seemingly doesn't and seems to be an unnecessary character.

um...I was ill last week and needed something to read so I decided to make a start and now I'm more than halfway through! So will have to be careful not to spoil you guys.

Great idea. I've got one already although it's not a plot point, I read about it in the Introduction.

What name did Frances Burney originally plan to give the character of Camilla?

a) Lavinia
b) Ariella
c) Augusta
d) Cordelia

Correct answer is (b) Ariella.

As well as the mention in Northanger Abbey, Camilla is mentioned in Jane Austen's unfinished book Sanditon:

The library, of course, afforded everything: all the useless things in the world that could not be done without; and among so many pretty temptations, and with so much good will for Mr. Parker to encourage expenditure, Charlotte began to feel that she must check herself -- or rather she reflected that at two and twenty there could be no excuse for her doing otherwise -- and that it would not do for her to be spending all her money the very first evening. She took up a book; it happened to be a volume of Camilla. She had not Camilla's youth, and had no intention of having her distress; so she turned from the drawers of rings and brooches, repressed further solicitation and paid for what she had bought.

Misfit wrote: "You are welcome. This will be fun, I've had it on my WL to read for years now."

Well, I just looked out my copy, and it is dated 14 February 1991. I know I read it right after I bought it (for once), so that makes it 20 years since I read Camilla.

Misfit wrote: "Bah. I just started it last night and made about 50 pages before I nodded off. It really wasn't working well for me, and now reading these comments I'm not sure I want to. It certainly starts off dry as dirt and doesn't sound like it improves much on that."

It does improve once you get past the party at the airport, but I'm not sure it improves enough for me to recommend you persevere! Having finished the book I definitely think it was a mistake to start the way it does - the opening chapters introduce a whole load of characters all at once some of whom are never seen again, give away plot points and are 90 per cent exposition 10 per cent action.



SPOILER WARNING



SPOILER WARNING



I was expecting that the narrative would return to the party at the end of the book but...no. The story just fizzles out. Jett's passion for Leslie? His interest in Luz? The aftermath of the diner incident? All left up in the air.

That said, I am glad I read it and I still want to give Ice Palace a go.

Also, you really don't get a balanced view because Ferber concentrates on the oil and cattle barons and the Latin Americans (not sure if this is modern politically correct term?) and ignores everyone in the middle. And yes, she repeats stuff all the time, not just the criticisms. The stuff about the flags of Texas was in twice, for example.

I have finished now and enjoyed reading it but I feel like a story with interesting characters and really great potential was spoiled by a subjective approach and poor storytelling (not to mention the lamest ending ever...just wait till you get there). Frustrating because what could have been a five star read turned out to be a 3.5 at best.

I agree, she seems to loathe Texas, and I think it unbalances the book, not just because the picture you get is biased, but because the story covers thirty years, but she focuses in huge detail on Leslie as a new bride because it gives her the opportunity to go on about how Texas is different - then the next twenty-five years go by in a flash. It feels unbalanced. I rarely say this, but this book needed to be longer, to give full value to character development. Marcia Davenport's The Valley of Decision, for example, did it much better.

MAP wrote: "I'd still love to know what "speaking Texan" means. :)"

Well, Ferber's characters definitely use some language I haven't heard before, aside from the Spanish. For example, when Bick talks about people 'snooting' others. I understood what he meant as 'snooty' in the UK means snobby or stuck-up, but I'd never heard it used as a verb before.

Michele wrote: "I just ordered Ice Palace from paperback swap!"

I've added it as to read but the library doesn't have it unfortunately - they might be willing to buy in a second hand copy though.

I'm going to add the movie to my rental list too. There's a review here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/...) which says the film is more successful than the book because it tells the story better - I think the reviewer has a point actually. The really dramatic moments sometimes take place offstage. I think it would be better to step back from Leslie's point of view now and again and take advantage of the book being in third person rather than first. It feels a bit like the other characters are being short-changed because we almost never see them from anyone else's perspective.

Michele wrote: "I just ordered Ice Palace from paperback swap!"

I've added it as to read but the library doesn't have it unfortunately - they might be willing to buy in a second hand copy though.

I'm going to add the movie to my rental list too. There's a review here which says the film is more successful than the book because it tells the story better - I think the reviewer has a point actually. The really dramatic moments sometimes take place offstage. I think it would be better to step back from Leslie's point of view now and again and take advantage of the book being in third person rather than first. It feels a bit like the other characters are being short-changed because we almost never see them from anyone else's perspective.

Michele wrote: "The picture of Ferber at the top of the page shows her in Kotzebue, Alaska...the town in which I was born and raised."

Wow - quite a contrast to Houston! I think we should read Ice Palace too at some point.

In the UK people have a very definite idea of themselves as English, Welsh, Scottish or (Northern) Irish and also there is a North-South divide in England so even though much smaller, we manage to have our stereotypes too!

MAP wrote: "That said, now I'm interested in this book. It doesn't sound terribly flattering."

Apparently it didn't go down too well with Texans at the time. According to a review of Ferber's later book, Ice Palace:

Ms. Ferber liked to take a stand in her fiction: her previous novel, Giant (1953), had narrowed the eyes of Texans in anger, prompting one Houston critic to suggest ominously that if Ms. Ferber were ever to set foot in the Lone Star state again, she should be met with a "necktie party" (rather than the traditional autograph affair).

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~cap/bartl...

What about the unusual approach to punctuation? I think it feels gimmicky and I can't see that it adds anything to the narrative that a few more commas wouldn't.

I'm so glad you used to live in Texas! I really wanted a point of view from a native or resident. Whereabouts did you use to live?



It certainly is big, if no longer the biggest state since Alaska joined the Union.

I can understand a lot of the language and I know a little Spanish. I hadn't realised how much Spanish was engrained in the culture and I get the impression it is quite different from other Southern states. After all, Leslie is technically a Southerner too and yet it's a complete culture shock for her to move to Texas.

Why should Texans be insecure? Is it because historically their wealth was based more on cattle than cotton (and now oil) or because the European influence is Spain rather than England? I was very interested by Ferber saying that the women using a rising inflection for statements meant they were insecure, because just about every female under the age of 30 in the UK seems to be doing this.

Thoughts on the first chapters (sorry can't be more specific as don't have book with me at the moment).

1. I had to put a spoiler warning in the thread title because of the way the book starts, in the present day (or what was the present day), so that the main story is one long flashback. Although the opening chapters are a good evocation of the lifestyle of wealthy Texans in the 1950s, I'm not sure this was the best way to begin, because it gives away plot points (eg: Jordan and Juana, Bick and Leslie making a success of their marriage). I think the story really starts when the flashback does.

2. The drinking of hot coffee in spite of the heat. This surprised me because although the British will travel to somewhere tropical and then drink hot tea on the beach, I thought Americans were more likely to drink iced tea or coffee in hot weather. Is it common practice to have hot drinks no matter what the temperature in the hotter states?

3. The girls' names - Leigh, Leslie and Lacey. I was surprised that they were considered to be boys' names as they sounded like girls' names to me. But then this is Virginia in the 1920s - have naming conventions changed?

4. Leslie's arrival at the ranch as a new bride - anyone else reminded of Rebecca?